bonfire79 Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 What is the distinct difference between and F model and an S model? The walkaround doesn't really specify. I will soon be building an AH-1S/F that I got in the mail yesterday -an unopened Cobra from monogram :) still has the original price tag on it Bon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Murph Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 This might help. Regards, Murph Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobrahistorian Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 This might help.Regards, Murph Ehhhh... not really. Lots of errors on that page. Firstly, it says that the E model can't carry rockets. That's just retarded. Here's a link to the loadout chart for the AH-1S (MOD, Prod and ECAS). http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index....90&hl=AH-1S For simplicity's sake, the Monogram kit is an AH-1F. The F is the final Army variant and is also known as the AH-1S (Step III) or the AH-1S(FMC). It has all the bells, whistles, systems, ASE gear, weapons, etc. The E was the Step II, also known as the ECAS (Enhanced Cobra Armament System) that first mounted the M197 20mm gun in the chin turret. It could and did carry rockets along with TOW missiles. Finally, the AH-1P was the Step I or AH-1S(Prod). This was the first to introduce the flat-plate canopy, but retained everything else from the AH-1S(MOD) or AH-1Q. The AH-1S(MOD) was basically an upgraded AH-1G -> AH-1Q -> AH-1S(MOD). It retained the AH-1S designation. It had a smooth canopy like the AH-1G, but mounted WSPS (Wire Strike Protection System) blades, the M65 TOW system and had beefed up pylons. The Fujimi AH-1S(Step III) kit will allow you to build an AH-1E or AH-1F from it. It does not include the M28 turret, so building a P is not possible without an aftermarket turret. If you're going to build an F, I'd go with the Monogram kit. It really is a very good representation of the real thing. Jon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bonfire79 Posted December 18, 2008 Author Share Posted December 18, 2008 Thank you Gentlemen for the good sources of info. My build will represent a Persian Gulf Desert Storm snake. Nothing special, just OOB. Merry Christmas! Bon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Floyd S. Werner, Jr. Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 (edited) What is the distinct difference between and F model and an S model? The walkaround doesn't really specify.I will soon be building an AH-1S/F that I got in the mail yesterday -an unopened Cobra from monogram :D still has the original price tag on it :) You knew I couldn't let this one go by. LOL I will try to answer this one. Stupid computers keeps locking up and shutting down. US ARMY AH-1 Cobra Variants The salient points of each variant are included. If nothing is added then the feature from the previous version carried over. AH-1G (early) Canopy- Rounded and slightly bulged with blue tint Turret Armament- Two options -TAT-102 turret w/ Single gun Wing Armament- Four hard points- http://www.aircav.com/cobra/m260.html Any combination of either seven shot or nineteen shot rocket pods. Seven shot pods XM-158 M-261 19-shot pods M-200 M-159 Wing gun 7.62mm- XM-18 Tail Rotor-left side Exhaust-Standard pipe Misc.- Landing light in the nose M-73 gunsight in back seat Front seat flex sight for turret system AH-1G (late) Turret- M-28A1 w/two openings- normal arrangement is 7.62mm mini-gun and 40mm grenade launcher. They could be mounted on either side depending on the unit. OR two guns OR two grenade launcher, again the turret armament depended on the unit mission. Wing Armament- Same as early with the addition of XM-35 20mm gun on left inboard wing pylon. System has cheek ammo holders conformal to the fuselage sides Tail Rotor-moved to right side Exhaust-Standard and Toilet Bowl late 1969/70 Misc.-Scoops on Engine doors as part of toilet bowl modification Landing light moved to belly AH-1Q Wing Armament-Outboard pylons changed to allow for M-65 TOW system (note same as on AH-1W kit) Misc.- Intake screens removed and would stay removed throughout the remainder of Cobra production. TSU added to nose Slightly larger elevators Changes on the interior for the TSU sighting system Pitot tube moved to pylon area HSS system incorporated AH-1S- Same as AH-1Q with upgraded engine (NOTE: Still round canopy) APR-39 on the front of the helicopter and back of the tailboom Tail Rotor-Larger paddle type blades Fairings removed from skids AH-1P (Prod) No snide comments about the strapping Cavalry Sky Soldier circa 1989 Canopy-Flat Plate Wing Armament- M261 19-shot pods M260 7-shot pods Tail Rotor-Larger paddle type blades Misc.-Larger bulge for the tail rotor gearboxes Introduction of Kaman K-747 main rotorblades. (The older B-540 blades were used up to the AH-1F) WSPS (Wire Strike Protection System) Cable cutter modification AH-1E (ECAS) Turret Armament-M-197 20mm gun system (note same as on AH-1J/T/W without turret cover) AH-1F (Fully Modernized) My Desert Storm AH-1F 79-23221, assigned to C Troop, 1st Squadron, 7th Cavalry Regiment, 1st Cavalry Division Exhaust-New IR suppression exhaust Misc.-Air Data Sensor (AADS) on the canopy right side Improved Particle Separator (IPS) Additional scoops (Debris Deflectors) added to inlets on later models M-130 Chaff dispenser added to the tail boom Bulge added to left transmission door Airborne Laser Tracker and/or fairing added to front of doghouse. IR lights added, including skid light ALQ-144 on new suppression system HUD display in cockpit THE AH-1S CONFUSION- Initially there was the AH-1S. Then the Cobra got the flat plate canopies and started to upgrade the Cobra. There was then the AH-1S, AH-1S (Production), AH-1S (Enhanced Cobra Armament System) and the AH-1S (Fully Modernized). If you think you are confused the Army supply and repair system was really confused. You had to look at the applicability code in the parts manual to get the right parts. The Army finally decided to have the AH-1S, AH-1P, AH-1E and the AH-1F and print parts manuals for each type of Cobra. The supply system and mechanics were very happy but modelers continue to be confused. Note that interiors were slightly different between models. If you want this document feel free to contact me and I'll send it to you minus photos. I wrote this article for my AH-1G article that probably is not going to be published. I should release it to the internet. I don't profess to know it all so if I've made a mistake just let me know. I do know the AH-1P and the AH-1F as I flew both of them. Floyd ADDITIONAL NOTE: Israeli modifications were applied to the AH-1S, AH-1E and AH-1F. Even Israeli AH-1E had the new IR suppression exhaust and many modifications. Reference: Aerofax Datagraph 4-Bell AH-1 Cobra Variant, Kenneth Peoples, Huey Cobra Gunships, Chris Bishop, Osprey Publications, ISBN 1-84176-984-3 Squadron/Signal Walkaround- AH-1 Cobra, Squadron/Signal AH-1 Cobra in action, Squadron/Signal Gunslingers in action, Edited December 19, 2008 by Floyd S. Werner, Jr. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobrahistorian Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 Wing Armament- M260 19-shot pods M261 7-shot pods I don't profess to know it all so if I've made a mistake just let me know. Ya got your pods mixed up, buddy. M261s are the 19-shotters. Same pods we use on the bigger, better attack helicopter :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Floyd S. Werner, Jr. Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 Ya got your pods mixed up, buddy. M261s are the 19-shotters. Same pods we use on the bigger, better attack helicopter :( Oh you mean on the bigger, better ramp ornament. LOL :D I'll fix the pod numbers. Floyd Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joseph Osborn Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 Okay, I'm getting close to going off-topic on this, but it's an opportunity to bust on Floyd, so I'll take it AH-1Q was the result of the Army seeing that the TOW worked pretty well in '72 and wanting it on the Cobra ASAP. So, they took the AH-1G and added the TOW system (sight, electronics, and launchers with adapted pylons) and the cool helmet-mounted sight system (HSS) and presto, they had the AH-1Q. There were supposed to be 100 total aircraft converted to the AH-1Q configuration. This took place in 1973-1974 and was called ICAP (Improved Cobra Armament Program). In true Army fashion, they rushed this new toy to the field before all the engineering was worked out, so the AH-1Q struggled with the extra weight of the TOW. So, there was the ICAM (Improved Cobra Agility & Maneuverability) program: this is where the original AH-1S was born. A new engine was installed (1800shp!) and the drivetrain from the AH-1J was put in to handle the extra power. Externally, the most noticeable difference is the big tail rotor. The slightly larger elevators came in, too. This is in 1975-1976. Soooo, getting back to where I bust on Floyd: the AH-1Q is pretty much just an AH-1G with the TOW and HSS. There aren't too many pictures of them because they weren't around very long. The few pictures I have seen show the skid fairings still in place and no APR-39 housings on the nose or tail. The very early AH-1S models still had the skid fairings and didn't have the APR-39's either. The only obvious difference between an AH-1Q and an early AH-1S was the bigger tail rotor. You'd have to get a measuring tape to see the difference in the elevators. The only part of the G-to-Q-to-S evolution that remains unresolved for me is when the deeper chin was added. Photos of one of the Q prototypes show the G-style chin but photos of a "production" Q (there was never a real production Q; "fielded" is probably a better term) appear to show the S-style deep chin. Not enough good pictures out there. Incidentally, I was much more interested in my Evel Knievel stunt cycle toy while all of this was going on, so I have to read books and look at pictures. Trust me, I have a real good reason for studying all this stuff Ask Floyd about it! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rotorwash Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 Joseph, I got about 100 pics of the AH-1Q prototype. Interested? Stupid question, huh. Not at home but I'll post a few in a new thread for you when I get there. Ray Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobrahistorian Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 So what happens when you've got an AH-1G with no skid fairings and APR-39 fitted? Ray, hit em with it! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Floyd S. Werner, Jr. Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 (edited) Joseph, I got about 100 pics of the AH-1Q prototype. Interested? Stupid question, huh. Not at home but I'll post a few in a new thread for you when I get there. Ray Ah duh! Email inbound. Guess I'll have to redo the time line on the Q at a minimum. LOL Damn how does Joseph find all this out and what could he possibly do with it. Hmm. I wonder. Floyd Edited December 19, 2008 by Floyd S. Werner, Jr. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joseph Osborn Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 So what happens when you've got an AH-1G with no skid fairings and APR-39 fitted? Ray, hit em with it! Easy-- you have an AH-1G with no skid fairings and APR-39! I think it was Floyd who sent me a batch of pics that included an AH-1G with M35, APR-39, and CARC paint. That's a weird combination, but you have to remember that this is the Army we're talking about. Nothing surprises me. When you use the same 400 or so machines for 40 years, you are bound to have 400 distinctly unique machines at the end. Ray, I am interested in seeing the Q pics-- you never know what you'll find in those old photos :) To the original poster: the whole US Army AH-1S/P/E/F (and M if you really want to confuse yourself) situation is one of those things that you can understand better when you look at it in terms in the military-industrial complex (mostly a bunch of make-work bureaucrats). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Floyd S. Werner, Jr. Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 I nominate this thread to be pinned."Everything you wanted to know about the (Army) Cobra alphabet." (thank goodness the Marines have the sense to keep their type/model/series in alphabetical order! :)) Well they sort of kept it in alphabetical order, at least for a while. LOL The first one was an AH-1G because the Army convinced Congress that the Cobra was nothing more than a skinny Huey with rockets and guns. The current Huey was the UH-1F, hence AH-1G. Then who knows what happened after that. LOL Same type of issue came up with the OH-58D. It was a totally different airframe and system than the OH-58C but it is different pots of money for upgrades than to produce new helicopters. Floyd Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve Filak Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Guys, In addition to all of the great information already provided in this thread, there's also this article from the front end of the site by Scott Snow. Also, I'm going to pin this thread; we wouldn't want this one getting lost in the shuffle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
marine4 ever Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 I nominate this thread to be pinned."Everything you wanted to know about the (Army) Cobra alphabet." (thank goodness the Marines have the sense to keep their type/model/series in alphabetical order! :)) amen brother! a friggin men! Semper fi Dan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rotorwash Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 (edited) OK guys, since this is pinned thought I might try to illustrate the Cobra lineage with photos. I sought out full side shots whenever possible and I have tried very hard to get this right. However, if I have erred, please let me know so I can fix it. I DO NOT want misinformation coming from me. Anyway, here we go. Sioux Scout N209J-The first Cobra The second cobra prototype. Note the chin fairing that is different from production G model: Good ole G model: AH-1Q: AH-1S (Mod): AH-1P [AH-1S (Prod)]: AH-1E [AH-1S (ECAS)]: AH-1F (AH-1S fully Modernized): So how did I do? Ray Edited December 20, 2008 by rotorwash Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Floyd S. Werner, Jr. Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 OK guys, since this is pinned thought I might try to illustrate the Cobra lineage with photos. I sought out full side shots whenever possible and I have tried very hard to get this right. However, if I have erred, please let me know so I can fix it. I DO NOT want misinformation coming from me. Anyway, here we go.So how did I do? I'd say really well. Might want to add a late G with the toilet bowl and XM-35 but the photos you've chosen are really great. Floyd Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rotorwash Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 I'd say really well. Might want to add a late G with the toilet bowl and XM-35 but the photos you've chosen are really great.Floyd Floyd, I hear ya. However, I used my 10 photo limit for that post plus I don't have great shots of late war G models. Perhaps you'd be so kind as to help me out there. i did replace the artsy-fartsy pic of the F model with one more consistent with the rest of the shots. Plus it shows the air data sensor better. Ray Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rotorwash Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 (edited) I hope this isn't too far off topic, but is it just me or are pics of G models with ALQ-144 mounted not that common: Anybody know what the story is here? I see the pitot is on the doghouse so that means it probably is a Q or S with some type of nose fairing, right? Ray Edited December 20, 2008 by rotorwash Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobrahistorian Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 No, that's just a really confused G. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joseph Osborn Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 So how did I do? Ray Cheers! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rotorwash Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Cheers! Looks like I passed the Joseph and Floyd test and since I see no corrections from Jon, I'm gonna say I might finally be getting a handle on these snakes. Thanks for the input guys! Ray Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SebastianP Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 This is a great load of information here, I'll have to check it over later. I've been using Vectorsite (http://www.vectorsite.net/indexav.html) for "version-tracking" aircraft when possible (not all aircraft are covered, but what is covered has a bunch of depth to it). Can anyone tell me how the AH-1 article on that site does accuracy-wise? Cheers, SP Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rotorwash Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 (edited) This is a great load of information here, I'll have to check it over later. I've been using Vectorsite (http://www.vectorsite.net/indexav.html) for "version-tracking" aircraft when possible (not all aircraft are covered, but what is covered has a bunch of depth to it). Can anyone tell me how the AH-1 article on that site does accuracy-wise?Cheers, SP Sebastian, I didn't read the whole thing, but the very first photo on the page is wrong. It's labeled as an AH-1F (fully modernized AH-1S), however, there is no air data probe and you can clearly see the pitot tube on the doghouse. Besides all that, the aircraft pictured there has been made to sort of resemble an AH-1G as the TSU and TOW launchers have been removed and it has been repainted in an OD Vietnam scheme. Looks like the aircraft was originally an AH-1E, assuming the 20mm in the chin turret was there (the one in the photo is clearly fake). However, I can't think of a worse photo for illustrating a version of the AH-1. Certainly no G model ever had a flat canopy or an M197 20mm cannon. In fact, I suspect that bird has be demilitarized. Just my two cents. Ray Edited December 27, 2008 by rotorwash Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Retired GunPilot Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Floyd, I enjoyed your's and everyone else's discussions in this thread and boy does it bring back memories. I remember when I was a skinny 134 lb W2 in 7/17 in 1977/78 we had the mods, prods and ecas birds requiring us three check rides minimum a year to stay current. The rides were easy it was the orals that I hated. It drove me crazy because when I said three check rides minimum that did not include all the other birds some of us where qualified in like the 58A and then flat screen Cs and UH-1 H's. I guess that is why I can't remember details anymore, had to remember too much detail in those years and when I finally retired flushed almost everything. I'm just thankful so many of you pilots and nonpilots keep up on all these details. A great thread. Charlie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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