Susaschka
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Posts posted by Susaschka
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Update: I've been in contact with a former Ukrainian Su-17 mechanic and he told me that only a few modified Su-17M4's were able to use the dual R-60 launcher.
Physically they would fit and could be carried, but without the necessary modifications only one of the rails could be used.
This upgrade was originally intended for the upgraded Su-17M4 (M5?), but this version was never put into service.
I will not be using the dual launchers on my model.
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On 9/2/2021 at 11:17 PM, VADM Fangschleister said:
It sounds like you have an excellent handle on it. It’ll look very good. Three fuel tanks is fine though I suspect it would’ve launched with only two. But then, here’s the kicker, the USAFE “deal” was no live weapons to be overflown unless an actual hostile action.
Note the SUU-21’s had doors on them to prevent inadvertent release of even a practice munition.
I like your ideas and hope to see them come up on the boards here. I’m proud to sayI worked Phantoms and three versions of them at that. I have the “phantom bites” on my hands to prove it. Definitely two of the most unusual years of my life.
Two new questions if I may: 🙂
- Which types of cluster bombs were used on the Spang Phantoms? Only Mk.20 and CBU-87 or also other types?
- I know that 3 Mk.20 could be carried on a TER, but was this also the case with the CBU-87's?
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I've bought two of the Eduard 1:48 MER kits with three MERS's in each kit.
These are for mounting on a USAFE F-105D (3x) and USAFE F-105F (1x) in the late sixties and a USAFE F-4E (2x) in the late eighties.
These MER's come with optional parts so three different versions can be made.
For assembly the instructions state: "SEE YOUR REFERENCES".
However, I'm unable to find any definitive clear information which optional parts go with which MER version and for which time period they are.
Can anybody here shed a light on this?
The parts concerned are R21 and R22 in the Eduard manual shown.
Thanks in advance for any reply!
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I really didn't know that Spang birds weren't allowed to fly with live weapons during peacetime. 😮
That explains the lack of pictures on the Internet of planes carrying live weapons.
I just bought a F-100D and F-105D with corresponding decals from Spang, so these were also added to my project.
Link to my project on Scalemates: https://www.scalemates.com/profiles/mate.php?id=35910&p=collections&collection=5963
It will be great fun building all of these 13 (!) planes and I will certainly post results here.
Just keep in mind that I'm a relaxed builder, so it can take some time. 😎
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Thanks again!
Guess I'm also guilty wanting to fully load my models. 😇
I think I will go for the 2 LGB-10's with 3 tanks or a loadout of mk.82's with 2 tanks as the mk.20 loadout is altready reserved for my Spang F-4E.
Your help is very much appriciated and answered a lot of my questions.
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10 hours ago, VADM Fangschleister said:
- Can I assume that my favored loadout of an AN/ALQ-119 (st6), an AN/ASQ-153 (st4), 2 GBU-10's (st2+8), 2 droptanks (st1+9), a SUU-23 (st5) and 2 AIM-7's (st3+7) is realistic if I lose the SUU-23?
The laser designator could go on 4 or 6. Funny thing is us weapons toads never loaded them. They were done by a different shop. Same with the ECM pods. We never touched them. Since they were not munitions, they were out of our AFSC. The mission would likely call for two AIM-7's in the aft launchers though we almost never loaded them except in the load-barn for qual. We once had a NATO/TAC EVAL exercise and it called for an AIM-7 load on a forward station. The aft stations were much lower to the ground and scraping our heads on drain masts was always fun. But I was told by our senior NCO's that the AIM-7's would go there if at all.
Absolutely a realistic load if you delete the gun pod on Sta 5.
The launchers for AIM-9's were carried at Spang and when I first got there the base did have that mission but it ended shortly after my arrival. We never loaded any except once in the load-barn at the start of my tour and never again.
- Did the F-4D's at Spang ever use the SUU-23 gunpods?
We were trained to load them and usually on Sta 5. They generally were considered to be phasing out but still were in the inventory. We never loaded one for actual gunnery purposes, just for load-barn training as it was a mission requirement. It would not be "wrong" to have one on Sta 5 but more than likely that station would have a fuel tank. The thing about the SUU-23 was that after you hang it, it has to be boresighted. This involves a bunch of cranking the airplane down to the ground, using a bunch of fiddly equipment to line up at a point somewhere in front of the aircraft. This accounts for the minor differences of when the pod was swayed in with the four sway pads that held it in place and to have it shoot straight, of course. But we never loaded one operationally...Just in training. It was a bit "weird" since it was electrical all the way. Both controlled and fired. The M61A1 in the E model was hydraulically actuated and electrically controlled. The SUU-23 used an electric motor to drive the breeches. Historically, I was told that the SUU-23's were notoriously inaccurate. The pylon swaybraces were not stout enough to keep them in a fixed position when firing and they would quickly go out of alignment.
- What could/would be carried on station 5 besides a nuke?
500 gallon fuel tank, the old one, not the high-speed F-15 tank. The Weasels got that mod first and I don't think the D model ever did though I could be wrong.
MER
SUU-21
SUU-23
B-57
B-61
The Dash 1 lists tons more but those were what we did in reality.
- Do you know if the GBU-10 and GBU-12's were the Paveway I or Paveway II versions?
In 1980, were were using Paveway I's with the sheetmetal fins. Later, I'm guessing around the end of the year or early '81, Paveway II's with the retracted fins.
Hope that helps. Most of the time, the D's flew with an ECM pod and one or two SUU-21's.
Thank you very much VADM Fangschleister, this is very helpful information for me indeed!
Will lose the SUU-23 on station 5 and I didn't realize that these guns were so unreliable and difficult to use.
Now I'm only wondering if I should replace them by an old style fueltank or a MER with ordanance.
Some last questions:
- What kind of bombs were used on the MER's? I guess 6 mk.82's or 6 mk.20's?
- And were these kind of bombs ever used when GBU's were carried?
Thanks again!
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10 hours ago, Finn said:
The D would be easy to build from the C kit, here are some instructions for the D :
https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/0/5/5/265055-34-instructions.pdf
Jari
Thanks!
Checked these F-4D building instructions with the content of my F-4C kit, and it is indeed possible to build a complete F-4D from it. 🙂
Stopped looking for another F-4D kit and just ordered another one of these that I will build into a F-4D.
Fortunately the F-4C kit comes with a uniform F-4 C/D SEA stencil decal sheet that I can use on my F-4D too.
The only thing missing here are the reflective anti-collision stripes, but fortunately these are on my aftermarket decal sheets.
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This week I received my Academy 12294 1:48 F-4C "Vietnam War" kit that will be build and convert into a Spangdahlem (E)F-4C Weasel.
Besides this F-4C, I'm also planning to build a F-4D and for this I'm looking for an Academy 12300 or 12310 1:48 F-4D kit.
However, these are a bit harder to come by, unlike the Academy F-4C.
While inspecting the content of this kit, I noticed that a lot of additional parts for other versions are included in the box and I'm wondering if it would be possible to build a F-4D from this kit.
It even looks as if a F-4B and F-4J could also be built.
Does anybody know if this is possible and/or has anybody ever built anything other than a F-4C from this kit?
I do realize that the decals will be the wrong ones, but that won't be a problem as I will be using aftermarket decals.
If anybody has one of these in his/her stash and would be willing to sell it, please let me know. 🙂
Thanks for any reply.
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14 hours ago, VADM Fangschleister said:
Actually worked 714 in the early 80's before the 23rd went to E models.
USAF was going to subdued fatigues from the bright blue. I built this one after I returned to CONUS.
To answer your questions
1) I was there from Mar 80 to Mar 82 as a 462X0 weapons loader so.... When I got there, all the jets in the three squadrons had SEA camo with white markings. Over the course of two years, the transition to black tailcodes happened gradually but by the fall of 1981 they were all black and the aircraft were still SEA camo.
2) Typical weapons loads were, day-to-day two SUU-21 pods (sta 2 & 8, one ea) with either six BDU-33's for conventional simulation or six Mk-106's for nuke simulation. During exercises, the D models were tasked with first a conventional weapons load with TERs on 2 &8 with three Mk-82's ea or, one GBU-10 on 2 & 8 or the same with GBU-12's. When the exercise escalated to nukes, we usually hung a B-61 on station 5. Sometimes it was a B57. Fuel tanks were ALWAYS the 370's on stations 1 and 9
Usually there was a 119 pod in the sta 4 LAU-7 launcher but it was frowned upon as the retractable crew ladder came very close to it so it was preferred it went in Station-6
Seldom, if ever did we load any AIM-7's as that commitment went away. Same with AIM-9's and the jets we got from Hahn, the first thing we did was remove the Aero 3B's from the inboard pylons. Bitburg was tasked with the A to A role and Spang was A to G only. When I was there, the 480th had E models, the 23rd had D models and the 81st had the G's. As I was leaving the 23rd was converting to E models, sent from Hahn and some from Ramstein.
That is a very nice looking model + stand and thank you for the weapon loadout info!
It's allways great to receive confirmation and what a coincidence that I'm planning to build a plane that you actually worked on. 🙂
I have four more additional questions if I may:
- Can I assume that my favored loadout of an AN/ALQ-119 (st6), an AN/ASQ-153 (st4), 2 GBU-10's (st2+8), 2 droptanks (st1+9), a SUU-23 (st5) and 2 AIM-7's (st3+7) is realistic if I lose the SUU-23?
- Did the F-4D's at Spang ever use the SUU-23 gunpods?
- What could/would be carried on station 5 besides a nuke?
- Do you know if the GBU-10 and GBU-12's were the Paveway I or Paveway II versions?
Thanks!
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On 8/8/2021 at 4:21 AM, Finn said:
Here is a D with a display load that includes SUU-7 dispensers:
Jari
Here's another shot of this bird from a little more back, showing that the GBU I thought that was on the centerline TER is actually on the inner left pylon and the centerline contains 3 LAU3 rocketpods. (Photo credit: Hans de Ree)
Unfortunately I was unable to find a picture taken from the front.
Looking at more F-4D Airshow static shots aroud that period, It looked like they made it their goal to load as many different weapons onto a plane. 🙂
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2 minutes ago, Niels said:
Remember that airshow displays are not reflecting true operational loads.
Yup, that is very true and it sometimes looked like it was a contest to see how much ordnance could be loaded.
For me it only provides me with intel about which weapons were in the arsenal and could be used.
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23 hours ago, Finn said:
Those are SUU-25 flare dispensers on the left outer, pretty much the same externally as a LAU-10 pod, hard to tell what is on the c/l, if a GBU it would be 500lb one as a larger one couldn't go on a MER. Maybe a BLU-27? Also at the far right, under the muzzle of the SUU-23 the white item is the lid for the container for the AIM-4D so they probably had those on display as well.
Jari
Thanks for clearing that up!
I think you are right that it propably is a BLU-27 or similar on the centerline and not a GBU.
AIM-4's I never considered, because for me they look like toys. 🙂
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Here's a F-4D from Hahn during the Open Day at Soesterberg 16-06-1967. (Photo credit: Hans de Ree)
Looks like this one is loaded with 2 (likely4) AIM-7's, a SUU-23, 2 BLU-27's and a TER with 3 LAU-3's. Any comments?
Note the absence of the nose sensor and old style serial.
Looks like Niels is completely right with his statement that the F-4D's would carry anything. 🙂
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3 hours ago, Finn said:
Here is a D with a display load that includes SUU-7 dispensers:
Jari
This is indeed a very interesting looking loadout! I've never seen SUU-7's before.
Can't tell for sure, but it looks like there are two Aim-7's on the aft missile wells, a MER with 2 Zuni rocket launchers on the outer left station, a TER with at least 2 Mk.82's (most likely 3) on the right inboard station and on the centerline a MER with what looks a GBU?
No ECM pod is mounted on the front right well and I can't really see if a Pave Spike is mounted on the front left well. Also a SUU-23 can be seen on stands in front of the plane, together with 2 other devices I can't identify with certainty. Any thoughts if my conclusions are correct?
Tried to find a frontal picture of this bird online, but was unable to find any. I do know the picture is taken at the Bitburg Armed Forces Day held at 26-08-1972, as a Belgian F-104, RAF Lightning and Canadian F-104 can be seen parked behind it. (https://www.scramble.nl/database/show-reports/germany/bitburg-1972)
I've sent a message to somebody I know who went there and asked him if he has a frontal picture from this plane showing the loadout. If I get it I will post it here if I'm allowed to.
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8 hours ago, Niels said:
If you're going by a model depicting a bird from aroud 1980, it would be Paveway I. Paveway III was initiated in 1976, but not entering service until 1986. I couldn't find any dates for Paveway II, however my impression is that it was taken into use sometime during the 80's.
Yeah, My thoughts exactly.
Will have to buy a set of GBU-10 Paveway I's then. 🙂
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On 8/7/2021 at 7:40 PM, Niels said:
Honestly not sure, as I rarely refer to the "Paveway" desgnation, prefering the GBU-12 designation. This designation hasn't changed, only the naming-numbers (Paveway I vs II) 😉
SUU-23 was carried by F-4D's of the 52TFW.The white "thing" is a SUU-21A training pod containing Mk76 training bombs. To avoid incidental loss (drop) of the training bombs when flying over populated areas, the pod with "bomb doors" was developed which prevented this happening. It was used throughout Europe and clearly Korea too as the photo shows a 8TFW jet.
Thanks again!
Same here with the Paveway designation, but there is however a significant difference between the two variants: Paveway II bombs have pop-out rear wings, as Paveway I examples have not.
The GBU-12's carried in the pictures are Paveway I examples, but all the 1:48 GBU-10's and GBU-12's I own are all Paveway II's. Guess I'll have to buy additional Paveway I GBU's. 🙂
Great that the F-4D's from Spang did use the SUU-23 so I will consider this option as well.
Thanks for pointing out the SUU-21A, because I had no clue what it was. As it is no "real" weapon and it is quite bulky, it will not be consider this an option on my model.
At the moment I'm leaning towards an AN/ALQ-119, an AN/ASQ-153 with 2x GBU-10's, 2 droptanks, a SUU-23 and 2x AIM-7's.
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4 hours ago, Niels said:
The serial and unit letters went black ~1980. White up to 1979, then gradual transition to all-black by 1981.
The F-4D's of the 23TFS carried laser pods, so they would be able to carry guided munitions and AGM-65's. But overall they could carry anything any other Phantom unit would or could carry.
The ECM pods would be ALQ-119's in forward right missile well.
Thank you very much!
It looks that the F-4D in the top picture is indeed carrying a AN/ASQ-153 Pave Spike Laser Designator Pod on the forward left missile well.
I found a very interesting picture of a F-4D from the 8TFW carrying a GBU-12D, AN/ALQ-119, AN/ASQ-153, and a SUU-23 at the same time.
It also carries something else on the right inboard pylon that looks like a camera/rocketpod, but I'm not sure what it is exactly.
Also found a picture dated 1977 showing a Woodbridge F-4D carrying a Pave Knife, Paveway I and Gun Pod, so I recon it was possible for Europe based F-4D's to use this loadout too.
This triggers some new questions:
- Which kind of Paveway LGB's did Spang F-4D's use: Paveway I, Paveway II or both?
- Did Spang F-4D's ever use the SUU-23 gun pod? I know they can technically carry them, but did they ever actually carry these?
- What is the device hanging under the right inboard pylon of the 8TFS F-4D?
Thanks again for the help!
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For my 1:48 scale Spangdahlem Heritage project, I'm planning to build an (E)F-4C and F-4D.
To build the (E)F-C Weasel, I've ordered an Academy F-4C and the GT Resin 48008 F-4C Weasel conversion Set.
I've also allready accuired the AirDOC M48-03 USAFE Phantoms in Germany Early Markings to build the 63-7440/SP as shown on the picture below.
The typical loadout for these birds was an ALQ-87/ALQ119, 2 AGM-45's, 3 AIM-7's and 2 droptanks and I will build it like that.
For the F-4D I'd like to build an example with the black serial presentation as shown on the other picture below.
It should also carry an interesting looking loadout and because of this I've got the following questions:
- In which timeframe did the Spangdahlem F-4D's use the black serial presentation?
- Which weapon loadouts were used by the F-4D's based at Spangdahlem during that period?
- Which types of ECM pods were used by the F-4D's based at Spangdahlem during that period?
Internet was quite helpfull with some of my questions, but unfortunately I'm unable to find the answers to these.
Thanks in advance for any help!
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On 5/19/2021 at 5:39 PM, Susaschka said:
For my Spangdahlem F-4E from 1987 I have now chosen the four AGM-45's, two/three AIM-7E's, centerline tank and AN/ALQ-131 as my planned loadout.
Small update after receiving more information about the F-4E mission at Spangdahlem (SAM killing): I've decided to change the loadout to six Mk.20s on two TER's, two/three AIM-7E's, two droptanks, possibly a centerline tank and AN/ALQ-131.
The weapons in this loadout (all are white) will have a great contrast with the European One color scheme! 🙂
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30 July 2011 I took this picture of a Su-17 in the Vinnitsya HQ museum (Ukraine), loaded with dual R-60 launch rails on the middle wing pylons.
Does anyone know if this is a viable R-60 configuration and if any Fitters actually flew with these?
Online I've only found two museum Fitters carrying this dual R-60 loadout, but I haven't found any pictures of operational Fitters with this configuration.
I'm in the final stages of completing my 1:48 Su-17M4 Fitter, and would like to know if a dual R-60 load is possible.
Thanks for any help.
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On 6/1/2021 at 12:08 AM, VADM Fangschleister said:
Don't forget the F-4D from the 23 TFS.
Indeed! And I think ! also need to consider the EF-4C too...
First I'm going decal hunting for the F-4D decals as I know these exist.
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Today I received this beauty. 🙂
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Hi Niels,
Did you ever manage to find these dual launchers you were looking for?
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8 hours ago, Finn said:
Some Bitburg F-105s from that time period can be seen here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mdebock/albums/72157633718479218
they should give you an idea what European based Thuds were like.
Jari
Thank you!
Multiple Ejector Rack (MER) USAF(E) version question
in Jet Modeling
Posted
Thanks, now I at least know the difference between the older and newer versions.