Me-262 colour chart question

[JochemKL]

Hey guys

I'm at the point that i can start painting my me-262 and looking at the colour chart i am supposed to paint the fuselage in RLM 81 (chocolate brown). As i have never seen a me-262 with an all brown skin (in books or other references) i just wanted to ask if anyone hase more info on this particular airplane.

To me an all green colour would make more sense and this would mean Revell switched colours on the below colour chart. Any info info very much appreciated

greetz

Jochem

[Flying Penguin]

Hey

a quick google search turned up this:

Seems to match the fuselage paint scheme, as it is dark brown with dark brown spaghetti, though the wing top surfaces are hidden.

Possibly a Revell over simplification?

Or possibly

Based at the RAF Museum at Hendon:

slightly more olive but a single colour...

Hope these help...

IMHO it's a plausible paint scheme, but not having pictures of the real aircraft I couldn't confirm for sure.

Cheers

Jamie

[claude]

Jamie,

I'm sorry, but the 2nd a/c is not olive but dark green (RLM 83) to me.

About the 1st I don't like to use restored aircraft as reference for colours. We know that today the museums are very carefull in the restoration process and they do a good reserch before start, but we also know that it wasn't this way 20 or 30 years ago...

Jochem I think you'll be more sucessfull if you ask this at 12'o clock or LEMB forums

Cheers

[Chuck1945]

Checking various references, I would say Revell is correct. Messerschmitt used 81 and Me 262s have been documented in 81/82.

[hell bent for ever]

Jochem

As of November 1944 the new satndard for Me 262 A-1as was Rlm-81 ''Brown Violet'' Rlm -82 ''lighy green'' over lightblau Rlm 75.

replasing the earlier 74/75/76 '' blitzbomber '' scheame

Given that thre are several pictures of factory as well as field Techs time and time again painting light colors over dark t....hen this paint scheme is verry plausible . assuming any sense or urgency at the factory or in the field ,the RLM 81 being the darker of the two it would be aplied first and it would be aplied as the main fuselage color as well .......of course it is a point of speculation

hope this helps you a little

Fern

[The Mikester]

Jochem,

I think I have some info on that bird at home, I'll post some info later if I find it.

[mark58]

Hi

My turn now on this interesting subject

As I'm just investigating on a special concrete revetment for jet aircraft which existed at Leipheim and probably Lechfeld, I found some pictures on the web, which might bring an answer to the paintscheme aswell

[jrallman]

look at the tail of "white 03" that mark posted! looks like white or pale light blue with 83 mottling? interesting scheme, and similar looking to the one in question here.

Seems that the big dillemma here is that an 81 fuse with 82 mottling is possible, but so is a solid 83 fuse. hmmm

Edited October 24, 2006 by jrallman

[mark58]

Yes, this is the paintscheme that Jochem needs with this RLM76+dark green mottle with sharp edges

These tails are common within Erprobungskommando Novotny Achmer and then Jagderprobungsgruppe 2 Lechfeld. The first actualy transfered to build up the second as far as I did understand. These planes have white numbers and a narrow yellow fuselage band, plus this somewhat special tails painted at factory module stage before final assembly. This would explain completely different style from the remaining surfaces of the plane.

and here is your aircraft Jochem standing on the flightline!

Edited October 24, 2006 by mark58

[Chuck1945]

I beg to disagree. It is impossible to tell with certainty what color is used when the source is a black and white photo. The best we can do is make an educated guess based upon what we perceive the colors to be, with the perception coming from other data we may have acquired regarding what we expect to see in the photo. For example, we may have read in other sources that by the Polish campaign, Bf 109E fighters were finished in 70/71 on the upper surfaces so when we see a photo of a Polish Campaign era Emil with dark upper surfaces, we assume these are 70/71.

Color pictures initially appear to be the solution, but in reality, they are not either. Too much variation is possible with color film, lighting, processing, age, and how many generations removed from the original is the picture we are viewing. Several years ago there was an interesting example in one of the modeling magazines that had two color photos of a P-51 model. In one the OD finish was distinctly brown, in the other it was green. However both photos were of the same model, taken with different cameras and different film.

From research conducted by Jerry Crandall on recovered Bf 109 artifacts, and by Brett Green (Hyperscale) on a preserved Me 262, one of the the orginal paint colors used matches the description of 81. Other researchers have also supported the idea that Messerschmitt used 81 on their late war aircraft. There is enough variation in actual application schemes as shown in various photos to indicate that there apparently was not a standard camouflage pattern all 262s followed, but these pictures also don't 'prove' that 82 or 83 should be used instead of 81.

In the end, we each have to make our own decision regarding color choices on every model we paint. For me, until I find more evidence that 81 was not used, one of the colors I will be using on any 262 I build will be 81.

[mark58]

Hi,

Well, I'm still with the pattern at the moment, didn't have an opportunity to investigate on the colours yet

This is a coulour version from what Jochem is looking for

It was issued in a special edition Luftwaffe jets of Aerojournal, a magazine which dissapeared in between

First and what I believe being right, pattern shows somewhat sharp edges on wings and horizontal stabilizer, and overlaped shades on the fuselage (this is similar on the colour pictures)

and here are the pictures with a superbe detailing from the tail

I'll come back later with something about the colours, just let me some time to check

Here is my proposal at present

The darker color on the drawing is RLM82 they say. It's also used for the mottle on the tail, I agree

The other one is RLM81 braun violet. This can be identified also from a closer look at the colour pictures

I t seems that two seperate colour matches of RLM82 are used on the same aircraft, a solid one on the tail and a somewhat lighter one on fuselage surfaces

Perhaps it may come from a thinned coat applied on RLM76 background , or both.

Cheers

Marc

Edited October 24, 2006 by mark58

[bilkeau]

I wholeheartedly agree with Chuck in that it is impossible to determine what colours were worn by a particular a/c from a b+w photo, and that colour photos can start more arguments than they finish! But here's another one anyway...

It looks like overall 81, maybe with a patch of green visible by the fuselage cross, but to be honest I wouldn't stake my mortgage on it

Incidentally, the colours for V303 are generally agreed as being 70/71/76, and that the distinctive stencilled Kommando Nowotny fin and rudder camo was RLM 70 schwartzgrun.

As for Jochem's plane, it's impossible to tell whether the a/c had the Luftwaffe prescribed factory scheme as shown in the diagrams, had a single uppersuface colour which was added to in the field, or was completely repainted in the field from an old EJG 2 machine. The latter seems unlikely because of the stencilled tail.

Given that the paint on the flanks comes down rather low, I'd go for an overall 82 scheme with some "field applied" 81 over it, as three non-regulation patches of darker paint are visible on the nose. On the other hand, the upper surfaces might be a single colour applied in varying densities!

Jochem, there's a wealth of information and opinion in this thread: enough for you to make your own informed decision, which is the best any of us (including those selling kits, decal sheets and books) can hope for. Whatever you decide, don't use that "Schule" decal - that would be bonkers.

Nick

Edited October 26, 2006 by bilkeau

[HistnScale]

Based on a quick reread through the newer Classic Publications on the 262 and the older Experten monograph on the tadpole tail airframes, I’ll offer this.

There were only five or six airframes completed using stenciled tadpole design. The consensus seems to be that most of the stencil tails were done in a very light white/blue version of RLM 76 with dark hard edged splotches done in RLM 70. Some of the tail units may have had the splotches done in RLM 83 dark green.

Best consensus on the fuselage is a slightly darker version of RLM 76. The main fuselage color may be RLM 83 dark green with an RLM 81 brown-violet overspray. The wings may be a splinter pattern, but I would favor a single color with an overspray matching the fuselage based on how other single color airframes are painted. This color combination would give the overall dark look seen in the b/w photos.

Again, there are other combinations like 83 dark green / 71 or 70 / 82 light green or 83 dark green / 82 light green. Basically, it becomes a choice by the builder. Such are the joys of late war German schemes.

On a side note, I would like to suggest that, when referring to the late war 80 series greens the poster identify the number and then add a description of the color, i.e.: RLM 82 light green. When the 80 series colors were originally identified in the old Monogram Painting Guide, the 82 / 83 colors were misidentified. A correction was published in the now defunct Aerofoil magazine which never had a very wide circulation. This reversal of colors still exists today in a number of publications and paint manufactures.

Identifying the RLM number and the color hue would just insure that everyone reading a post is looking at the same apple and orange color.

HTH & Cheers,

Dave

[The Mikester]

Jagdwaffe Vol. 5, Section 4 has a picture of "Green 3" taxying by "White 19" of III./EJG 2 in January of '45, it appears to have been snapped a couple of seconds after Marc's picture. "Green 3's" topsides are done in RLM 75 and "possibly" RLM 71, according to the authors (J. Richard Smith and Eddie Creek).

"White 19" looks very dark in the photo so if the authors are correct on "Green 3" you could safely assume that "White 19" had a fuselage that was predominantly RLM 71. This would go against conventional wisdom but it's certainly plausible. It just looks to dark for RLM 81, to me at least, maybe it could even be RLM 70?

Edited October 25, 2006 by The Mikester

[JochemKL]

Hey guys,

I want to thank all of you for jumping into your references, alot of the text and attached pics are new to me. Especially the shot showing number 19 on the runway seems like it is in a very dark colour, different from the other aircraft beside it. The colour pic of number 26 on the grass also makes be believe its darkbrown instead of (lighter) green. I believe i need to reread the various posts again to get all the RLM numbers richt, and make up my mind.

In the mean time i stumbled across this scheme, that might be an easy way out hah hah, any opinions on this one?

Me262A1

III./EJG 2

1945

source: www.il2-skins.de, this is a skin to be used in a pc flight sim.

Many thanks again,

Jochem

[mark58]

Hi

White 17 is believed to be a gray one effectively

A first batch of aircraft was pressed into service with an Erprobungskommando at Lechfeld in july 1944. These had the standard RLM74,75,76 fighter paintscheme, and some of them survived the war.

Your 19 is one with this special tail pattern, and these are definitely RLM76,81,82

The contrast between 81and 82 is realy low at some angles, or light exposure, so it gives this impression of dark paint overall

hope this will help

cheers

Marc

[bilkeau]

Fortunately there is a colour pic of "White 17" in vol. 3 of Classic Publications' "Me 262" magnum opus, which in spite of my previous misgivings about colour phots, clearly demonstrates the factory 74/75/76 scheme.

And going back to V303, I notice that Experten state it is painted schwartzgrun over 83 dunkelgrun.

Nick

Edited October 26, 2006 by bilkeau

[JochemKL]

After deciding for myself that i was going for a base colour of dark green i stumbled across this picture:

Source: Robert Peczkowski's Messerschmitt Me-262a Schwalbe (Yellow Series, Mushroom Model Magazine Special, No 6105)

I will use this scheme but change the tail colours to match the RLM colours you guys supplied, and paint the bottom halves of the exhausts darkgrey. I think the b/w pic showing nr 19 on the runway does show the patches on the nose as shown in this colour pic.

Many thanks again for all the input

Jochem

[jrallman]

actually, if you are using that profile, it looks like only the rear part f the engines are dark gray, the front NMF, and the bottom in the middle 76.

[JochemKL]

actually, if you are using that profile, it looks like only the rear part f the engines are dark gray, the front NMF, and the bottom in the middle 76.

Yep, that's what i meant :wacko: bottom halve of the exhausts, i took the middle part for the engine housing, the front for the intake..oh well...you get the idea.

tjow Jochem