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Chox

What we've all been waiting for...

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Well don't get me wrong, I'm all for a bit of creative writing and a bit of humour. Back in the dark days of pre-history when I edited IPMS Magazine

Aha, now I know who you are! Still stirring the pot I see!

But if you go back to those days, all we had in terms of aircraft modelling magazines was SAM and the shortlived Aircraft Modelworld, along with the multi-purpose Scale Models and the stop-start of Airfix Magazine.

Now we have FOUR monthly dedicated aircraft modelling titles to choose from/gorge on - SAM, SAMI, MAM, MAI - along with the bi-monthly ones

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... and your point is what? Because we have four or more magazines currently available, we should flush editorial standards down the proverbial pan?

You'd think that with potential competition out there, editorial standards would increase not decrease?

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Yes, you could do a comparison, but you'd be hard-pressed to get an accurate sales figure for any of the modelling magazines. The quoted figures on their sites are wildly optimistic (you don't see many audited numbers floating around) and based on the sales figures for aviation magazines, it seems fair to assume that all of the modelling magazines have a real circulation figure well below ten thousand copies per issue, some being way below even that figure. You can be sure that the number of internet surfers outweighs the number of magazine readers by many, many thousands. A group of people round a sales table at Telford tells you nothing - it's unrepresentative of news stand sales out in the real world.

Actually Chox, if you take a peek out of your blinkers you will see that the world is in fact NOT flat.....

"4 MILLION ACTIVE modellers Compared to 6750 REGISTERED members of ARC! "

Even given that the figures of FOUR MILLION are wildly optimistic, facts are facts.

You wondered earlier.. " .. why anyone would bother buying a model magazine these days, especially when so much better stuff is available on the web now for free."

Well, wonder away because they do - whether you care to believe it or not! And that includes a fair few of those internet surfers............

Edited by Bill Clark

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eh?!

I don't think anyone was stupid enough to presuppose that I was comparing magazine readership with the users of just one modelling site! I was referring to the comparison between access to all internet modelling resources and the almost artifically small readership of model magazines. You can throw off-the-cuff figures around all you like the the basic fact is that the actual number of magazine readers is astonishingly small and out of all proportion to the perceived importance of the magazine. Okay, you'll never get a model magazine publisher to tell you their real circulation figures, but I know from experience that the real circulation figures of aviation magazines and books are much, much lower than most people imagine, and specialised aircraft modelling magazines (by definition) are even smaller.

Whether there are four million active modellers (not sure what what a passive modeller is though!) is open to question but I'm not quite sure what your point is? Surely you don't expect all four million to be using ARC any more than they are likely to be buying model magazines?!

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... and your point is what? Because we have four or more magazines currently available, we should flush editorial standards down the proverbial pan?

You'd think that with potential competition out there, editorial standards would increase not decrease?

Or perhaps that, in being able to support more titles (though I have doubts about long term viability and advertising revenue, even with todays lower production costs) the respective editors are providing a standard and style that their readers apprecaite?

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Hi

Got a little question for you

Quote

You wondered earlier.. " .. why anyone would bother buying a model magazine these days, especially when so much better stuff is available on the web now for free."

I know I buy magazines and I know I pay for internet, so where can I get so much better stuff on the web for free and what company graciously gives free internet access?

Regards

Paul

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Or perhaps that, in being able to support more titles (though I have doubts about long term viability and advertising revenue, even with todays lower production costs) the respective editors are providing a standard and style that their readers apprecaite?

Or perhaps the tastes, likes and dislikes of the reader are largely irrelevant, bearing in mind that the magazines inevitably survive through advertising support not cover sales?

Edited by Chox

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If any of the foregoing is true, how do you explain things like a certain former Editor's obsession with WWII and particularly Luftwaffe, and his compulsion to continually claim that these kits were the ones that "we" had supposedly "been waiting for" etc? Or astonishingly long features on building WWII subjects with modern topics being afforded a tiny proportion of space (I can recall one issue of a certain magazine that contain absolutely no features on any post-war aircraft whatsoever)?

And why would the advertisers decamp? You're assuming that any of them have a clue what the actual circulation figures are for the magazines they advertise in. As wise old publishers will tell you, there are the "readership" figures (which get thrown-around to us folks and the advertisers) and the real circulation figure which (as you can imagine) is astonishingly smaller.

As for the insertion of humour, opinion and so on, I've already said that I certainly don't object to such content, but I do object to opinion which is disguised as fact, or personal agendas which are disguised as humour.

And finally (for now) it may have escaped your attention that magazines may be designed to appeal to as broad a range of readers as possible, but you're presupposing that other considerations are not judged to be more important. In the case of model magazines, there are clearly other factors which tend to take priority such as the need to attract the necessary advertisers, the availability of copy, the availability, speed and efficiency of the individual contributors, the interests, likes and dislikes of the contributors, the opinions of the magazine's Editor, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not on some crusade here, as I obviously don't have any obligation to buy any model magazines so ultimately it's of no real concern to me whether the magazines succeed or fail. But I'm just consistently amazed at some of the preconceptions that surround these publications as you can read from the postings here and elsewhere which is why it is (sometimes) good fun to proverbially rattle a few people's cages and remind them that things aren't necessarily as they might have imagined!

Edited by Chox

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oh well, you know a discussion's run it's course when the other party resorts to icons!

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Okay Chox...my final word on this increasingly boring subject....

From ADH publishing (responsible for THREE titles: Model Airplane International (MAI), Tamiya Model Magazine (TMM) and Model Military Magazine (MMM)....

Copies to UK newsagents: 16000, 17000 and 17000 respectively (Total: 50000)

Copies Overseas: 8500, 11000 and 11000 respectively (Total: 30500)

Copies to UK Model Shops: 2800, 3500 and 3400 (Total: 9700)

Copies direct to UK and World-wide subscribers: 1800, 2600 and 2750 (Total: 7150)

Thats a total of 97350 copies issued per month.

Okay thems the facts, we can assume that not all will be read (they do need some for back-issues!)

We can also assume that two or three of titles will be read by one modeller.

Now we can also assume that SAM publications has similar sales figures as will Guideline Publications. We can also assume that most modellers will treat themselves to a few of the titles.....

Given the above, and even taking a figure of 50% of ADH's titles being read regularly that gives us almost 50,000 active modellers reading magazines regularly...

Assume then that ARC (and the equivalent to a general magazine : Hyperscale maybe, and add a Military website) attracts the same kind do of proportions , 6750 7000 & 7000 respectively and double the first number you thought of, and the FACTS are obvious.....Magazines are very much alive and are still the MAIN source of modelling news to the majority of modellers.

Whether you like it or not!! Whether you like the editorials (or maybe its the editors?) or not

Why do the words "gamekeeper", "turned" and "poacher" come to mind??

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Okay Chox...my final word on this increasingly boring subject....

From ADH publishing

Okay thems the facts

Like you say, this is getting boring, but I have to giggle reading the above comments. You don't seriously believe those figures do you? Or worse still, expect anyone else to believe them? get real! Try again when you have some audited figures to play with and maybe we can have a sensible discussion.

Anyway this is pointless. It's clear that nobody is allowed to have an opinion on this site unless it meets with the approval of certain people. I thought the point of a forum was to discuss and argue points, not just accept the comments of a few.

Edited by Chox

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Like you say, this is getting boring, but I have to giggle reading the above comments. You don't seriously believe those figures do you? Or worse still, expect anyone else to believe them? get real! Try again when you have some audited figures to play with and maybe we can have a sensible discussion.

Anyway this is pointless. It's clear that nobody is allowed to have an opinion on this site unless it meets with the approval of certain people. I thought the point of a forum was to discuss and argue points, not just accept the comments of a few.

Tim, You REALLY need to give that chip you have on your shoulder back to Harry Ramsden!!!

For someone who is a respected "name" in UK modelling and Aviation journalism you've let yourself down badly. Very sad.......

Edited by Bill Clark

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Tim, You REALLY need to give that chip you have on your shoulder back to Harry Ramsden!!!

For someone who is a respected "name" in UK modelling and Aviation journalism you've let yourself down badly. Very sad.......

Bill, am I thick (dont all say yes at once :( ) but who is this guy?

Julien

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Bill, am I thick (dont all say yes at once ;) ) but who is this guy?

Julien

Tim Laming......had a few books out in his time but obviuosly just bored now. He does appear to take pleasure in winding forums up. I watched a similar strain of threads on UKAR only a couple of months ago, until all the moderators got so p***ed with him, he left. Hasn't taken Tim long to do the same here by the looks of several current threads.

My advise to ALL would be, do not reply to his posts - he might just go away.

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MAI doesn't seem to be exactly sure what it's all about. It started off as an aviation magazine, then became a modelling reference magazine

I think you mean MAM?

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Not trying to flame or get personal, but is that the same Tim Laming who wrote the book 'The Vulcan Story'?

Karl

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I have just re read some of these posts. Some years ago - many in fact I was going to enter the field of publishing - and the results from close examintation of the statistics of circulation were remarkable. I was reminded of this by the comment above that a maazine has the "ability to reach.." Not necessarily does!!! We found that some people bought every issue of a (hobby) magazine regardless, because they just did - and read it thoroughly. It seemed they felt it a necessity - perhaps like a lawyer or doctor will read their respective in house journal to keep up to date in order to practice their profession properly. Then there were the intermittent buyers - overall greater in number. Also we must not ignore those (guilty) who browse more often than not and then return to shelf.

Publishers seemed to arrive at a "guestimate" of circulation from these figures. It would be naive to think that the circulation figures are not massaged to impress advertisers. Equally reviewers consider the need to be asked to review a product (kit etc.) on more than one occasion. These practices are not dishonest in the commercial world - simply business survival.

I could say more but this and the professionalism of the production/content but it would to some be hurtful and unkind - as the truth frequently is found to be.

Statistics are like a bikini - reveal all but the vital facts - it is natural for some to defend the integrity of a magazine - patrticularly if they contribute - but in any event why not.

So, to sum up - I am sceptical of the content and claimed prowess of modelling magazines as I am of a number of things, due to experience; but I still buy/read them and draw my own conclusions where necessary on the credibilty of what is written - but of course it is not a matter of life or death here (nor mega bucks at stake)- simply a hobby.

Clearly a magazine will vigorously promote something or other from time to time - we all have our prejudices - perhaps to the death - but it really does not matter. You can in publishing only please all of the people a very small part of the time - if you are lucky.

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Judging by the superior tone of most trolls (generalising now - but am I really generalising?), it's a power thing. Maybe they lack power in real life, so have to make up for it online where no-one can harm them physically? I know my troll did... he was entirely under the thumb at home, to the extent that he came somewhere below the kettle in the pecking order :unsure:

Could very well be. Complete weenie in real life, but they can pretend they're tough (or smart, or important, or like... tolerated?) behind their computer screens.

What's amazing to me, is that they seem to think there's even the slightest bit of originality about it. Anyone who's been around an internet forum for more than six months has undoubtedly seen a similar tool, posting garbage, trying to stir up trouble. It's happened time and again on RMS. Time and again on Hyperscale. Several times on ARC. They may or may not get a few riled-up responses to their drivel at the start, but a few months go by, and they are completely forgotten. Funny really, they seem to get off on the idea that they're really sticking it to a bunch of anonymous individuals, when they're more like the crazy homeless guy ranting on the corner - you just look straight ahead and walk on past, and completely forget you ever saw him.

One would imagine though, if you're trying in any form to sell your wares to a group of people, that it takes a special kind of stupid to alienate them before doing so. "Tim Laming? Isn't he that douche-bag who tried to pick a fight on ARC? Yeah, I think I'll give that book a pass...." (or for that matter, while actively seeking help from such a group, for your latest project - that's REALLY gonna make people want to share their Vulcan information) Not exactly the kind of reputation that makes companies want to hire you, either - who wants an editor that a large and vocal group of individuals dislikes? Great way to sink a publication.

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Well of course everyone is entitled to engage in a conversation, debate, argument, call it what you will. But (as is so often the case) the minute someone argues a point, people get nasty. As soon as you reply in the same vein you're painted as some villain. It's quite bizarre!

Incidentally MoFo, you might care to note that I have no desire to "sell my wares" to anyone. If you'd like to re-read the previous postings, you'd note that I was actually expressing my thoughts on model magazines. If you don't agree with my views that's fine, but how's this for an idea - offer an alternative argument? Or is it just easier to make nasty comments about people you don't like?

Oh and Miduppergunner - well done, some sensible comments there and I quite agree!

Edited by Chox

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This is true - I wanted to subtitle it "The Last British Bomber" (for purely alliterative effect) but the publisher changed it - miserable sods!

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Anyway this is pointless. It's clear that nobody is allowed to have an opinion on this site unless it meets with the approval of certain people. I thought the point of a forum was to discuss and argue points, not just accept the comments of a few.

There seem to be a lot of discussing and arguing of points going on here... We just disagree.

I'm not going in on the debate on circulation. I just know that if you want a magazine here, you have to be quick, as it sells out in a week. I personally subscribe to SAMI, and I started doing that when the editor changed. The magazine is vastly improved, PARTICULARY in the news section. I read it now. From beginning to end. The major change is that the editor actually assumes that the reader is intelligent enough to know if something is a bit of a joke or serious. The infomation gets across.

That you assume that the manufacturers are stupid enough to belive that "everyone" wants a Gannet because one news editor say so in a OBVIOUS attempt to lighten up the content, is condescending in the extreme. The manufacturers and indeed we readers are smarter than that, I promise.

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