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Canadian Snowbirds aerobatic team set to take former Swiss BAE Hawks to replace Tutors following Arinc inspection

By Graham Warwick

US engineering services firm Arinc has completed an inspection of Switzerland’s retired BAE Systems Hawk jet trainers in support of a proposal to lease the aircraft to the Canadian Forces to replace ageing Canadair CT-114 Tutors flown by the Snowbirds display team.

Canadian firm Venga Aerospace Systems submitted the unsolicited proposal in September, and believes it is being taken seriously by the Department of National Defence (DND) in Ottawa, says company president Hirsh Kwinter.

Under the proposal, the 18 ex-Swiss Hawks (pictured above in storage) would be owned by Venga, maintained by Arinc Engineering Services and flown by the Snowbirds under a 20-year lease at a per-hour cost that fits the current annual budget for operating the 35-year-old Tutors (pictured below).

Kwinter says Venga and Arinc have had substantive discussions with the Swiss air force, which has had the Hawks up for sale for two years since retiring the aircraft. Three are still flying and the other 15 are in storage, he says.

The cockpits of the Swiss Hawks would be upgraded, and Kwinter says the aircraft would require an engine modification – developed for the UK Royal Air Force’s Red Arrows display team – that overcomes the “turbo lag†of early Rolls-Royce Adours.

“We are not the first to make a proposal to re-equip the Snowbirds,†says Kwinter. Following the Canadian Forces’ decision to phase out its Tutors in favour of the Bombardier-run NATO Flying Training in Canada programme, it was offered additional new-build Hawks to re-equip the Snowbirds, but the cost was too high.

“We have made a presentation [to the DND]. They took it seriously, and thought it had merit,†says Kwinter, describing the department’s official response as “non-committalâ€. Two companies currently have a business-development agreement, but under the plan Venga would raise the financing to buy the aircraft and Arinc would receive a contract to support the aircraft for the life of the 20-year lease.

Toronto-based Venga was established in the 1980s to develop the TG-10 Brushfire all-composite jet trainer, but the prototype was destroyed in a fire in May 1998. To survive the company entered the 3D graphics market, but last year re-animated its aerospace division, with the Snowbirds proposal as its first project.

They can save money on not repainting them, too - they're already red and white. :D

Edited by Sean Bratton
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It seems wrong that a military display team would be flying equipment that their military didn't really own...

Well technically that's not true. We do own BAE Hawks for training but it's a real shame that one of the leading display teams in the world can't have NEW aircraft and may have to settle for hand me down's retired from a country 1/10000 times smaller than ours!

Link to RCAF CT15 Hawk pic.

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Well.....its better then disbanding 431 sq. Something beats the crap out of nothing.

I was thinking the same thing. Hey don't get me wrong new is good...no...new is fantastic! But if it comes down to used and nothing at all...well...used is now freakin' fantastic :blink: !

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Sounds like a smart business decision to me given the circumstances. Besides, even if the US Navy owns the F/A-18 Hornets that the Blue Angels fly, they are technically hand me down jets anyway as they get low time "new" F/A-18As when they get rotated out of fleet service.

There is nothing wrong with used jets, even if it does lack a bit of prestige. You will probably see it happen more and more (and it already is in combat units in other countries, with Brazil buying ex Kuwaiti Skyhawks, Argentina buying ex-USMC machines and Poland buying ex-USAF F-16s).

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I think the key thing is that they get a jet similar to what they were looking for (it's not a Hawk Mk.100) with low hours and a low fatigue index at a fraction of the cost of buying new. Much like the U.S. Navy's "new" F-5N's.

"Only flown Sundays by a little old lady from Interlaken....."

Cheers,

Sean

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Um, the Poles are buying brand new F-16 Block 52s...

Also it's a gross waste of resources to have brand new frontline combat aircraft to fly for demo team; so the Navy using older F/A-18A was a good decision.

I'm not sure why the USAF is switching the Thunderbirds to Block 52 F-16s which I'm sure could be put to far better use by an operational squadron. Seems to me to be a complete waste.

I have an idea, with all those Tweets headed to the boneyard... the Snowbirds should pick up a few of those planes. They're be dirt cheap with plenty of jets sitting in the desert to canabalize.

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Oh no no, the Snowbirds already have enough problems with having the rep of the Snorbirds (I think it was Waco that called them that, not sure).

They dont need to be responcible for crowd annoyance AND ear damage AND....I dont think they'd have enough Security to deal with the massive numbers of people who would show up for a Tweet show. ......Or was it the massive numbers of people trying to get out...

Darn it..which is it...

Seriously, the Snow's getting some Hawks is great, and like said, Used is OK, but compared to nothing, used is FANTASTIC.

Edited by ViperTomcat85
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I'd much rather having the Canadian Forces own the Hawks for the Snowbirds, but if this arrangement can work without compromising the world class show the Snowbirds put on then ok. In essence they can still be marketed as similar type Hawks to the ones the Canadian Forces use in pilot training. To 9/10 air show fans they will look very much the same as our NFTC Hawks.

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I can't see it working if they have civilian techs.

Agreed. It would be darn near impossible to have civvies following the Snowbirds all over N America. Worse yet would be the idea of flying the whole group to a central facility after every demo.

I like Barney's idea. Throw in a couple JATO bottles and the show would really have some zing....

WB

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Damn straight it's his fault. I'm offended he started the topic, he knew with his clarivoiance that I would be offended and that I would bring up the Tweet and someone would mock it... clearly it's his fault.

Lock this thread damn it!!!!

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Um, the Poles are buying brand new F-16 Block 52s...

Also it's a gross waste of resources to have brand new frontline combat aircraft to fly for demo team; so the Navy using older F/A-18A was a good decision.

I'm not sure why the USAF is switching the Thunderbirds to Block 52 F-16s which I'm sure could be put to far better use by an operational squadron. Seems to me to be a complete waste.

Concerning the Poles purchase, I hadn't heard that so thanks. I do recall when the Poles were originally in the market for F-16s, there was supposedly a proposal on the table for them to get some used low time airframes that were mothballed at AMARC, so that is where my assumption came from.

As for the Blues, you wouldn't believe the amount of repair time they have to commit to those A model Hornets. Granted their repair crews are the best in the fleet and do more then is typically done in frontline service, but those jets require a lot of work to keep them flying in rigorous airshow duties. A lot of it stems from their airframes being old and they are a lot more complicated then the A-4 Skyhawks that were operated until the late 1980s.

It seems like in 2003-2004 seasons, the two seater jet had to fly the #4 position more often then not due to one of the single seaters being down and the repair crew had to play musical jets with the inventory to accomodate it so it could fly the slot. I was at one show in 03 where they had a double aircraft failure with one jet (lead solo) going down just before the taxi and it had to be replaced with jet 7. Then during the first diamond form up, aircraft #4 encountered a problem and had to land, leaving the diamond to fly a three ship formation during the majority of the show until the slot guy finally got airborne (in jet 5 after its problem was corrected) to form up for the final passes.

With the Thunderbirds, first of all, they ARE an operational squadron. Their mission is to fly airshow displays. I have a feeling that the USAF believes that newer aircraft potentially leads to less maintenance downtime for something like airshow work and that looks to be the case. Plus, from a parts standpoint, a lot of older F-16s are already in reserve and ANG units anyway leaving the regular USAF operating newer jets. So from a logistics standpoint, it makes more sense that the jets in the display team are of the same basic type as those in the fleet (potentially easier to get many parts since they are in the pipeline). Airshow work is not easy on a jet and they can pile up airframe hours rather quickly as a result. A portion of it is probably also prestige based, knowing that the premiere USAF aerobatic display team operates the newest F-16s in the inventory. The Thunderbirds also (at least during the cold war) had a secondary tactical mission and it was made clear during their airshows that if the need arose, they would get repainted in tactical colors and reequipped for operational use in as little as 24 hours notice.

As to which approach is better, it is hard to say. Both services have used the same procedures for years with little change, so the current situation is by no means unque. In the history of the Blues, they have soldiered on with aircraft types long after they were retired from frontline service (the F11F Tiger and A-4 Skyhawks being prime examples). So they are used to doing things like this. But, jets like the F/A-18A are a bit more complex then those earlier types were (with the possible exception of the F-4 Phantom). And complex jets potentially require more work to keep flying the older they get.

Edited by Jay Chladek
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Oh, believe me, I'd love to see the Snowbirds go to the Hawk.....anything, as long as the team stays with a 9 aircraft show. Anything less would take away from the Snowbirds style and identity.

I agree that it would be a shame to go down to less than 9 jets. The only teams I've seen are the T-Birds and Blues, so I'd definitely like to see the Snowbirds someday, not only because they would be new to me, but also because of their numbers.

So, from what I read so far, the Hawks are fine, it's just possibly civilian maintenance issues that maybe a problem, and some would prefer newer jets for the Snowbirds?

With the Thunderbirds, first of all, they ARE an operational squadron. Their mission is to fly airshow displays. I have a feeling that the USAF believes that newer aircraft potentially leads to less maintenance downtime for something like airshow work and that looks to be the case. Plus, from a parts standpoint, a lot of older F-16s are already in reserve and ANG units anyway leaving the regular USAF operating newer jets. So from a logistics standpoint, it makes more sense that the jets in the display team are of the same basic type as those in the fleet (potentially easier to get many parts since they are in the pipeline). Airshow work is not easy on a jet and they can pile up airframe hours rather quickly as a result. A portion of it is probably also prestige based, knowing that the premiere USAF aerobatic display team operates the newest F-16s in the inventory. The Thunderbirds also (at least during the cold war) had a secondary tactical mission and it was made clear during their airshows that if the need arose, they would get repainted in tactical colors and reequipped for operational use in as little as 24 hours notice.

I think one reason is becuase the only combat unit that uses the Block 52 is the SC ANG. I think they wanted more training at McEntire, so more jets were sent there, and since there were some left over, but not enough for another combat squadron, they were sent to Nellis to be used as either aggressors, test aircraft or T-Birds.

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As far as slagging the twin engine dog whistle...many years ago a pair of Canadians were in Colorado Springs and were attempting to file an IFR flight plan to get home...in their trusty little hotrod...a Tutor.

The US ATC system had new flight planning computers...... :rolleyes:

Pilot...Type of airfcraft...CT-114

Computer.....No such type

Pilot...T-37

Computer....OK...Filed Airspeed

Pilot...350 Kts

Computer...T-37 won't go that fast

Computer...Requested Altitude?

Pilot...now PO'd...Flight Level 350

Computer....T-37 won't go that high...try again

Resourceful Canadian Pilot...OK...F-5A...We'll fly single engine...350 Kts...FL350

Computer...Thank you have a nice flight......

And yes Virginia, this actually happened :whistle: It was the biggest joke in the mess on Friday night

Barney

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