Maine ANG just got meaner!

[Rick in Maine]

Some of you might remember mytale from August when the Maine ANG (KC-135Es) Community Relations officer would not allow me to make a photo visit and even if she did, I could shoot only one

a/c. I asked to take external shots only, 1 per a/c. She was amazed I had ever been on the Guard base, even escorted. At that time, though, she told me it was always OK to takes pictures from outside the fence.

So I've done that several times since then (and have been doing so for more than 10 years). Yesterday I was getting a pic, from outside the fence on public property, of a "top secret" MI ANG C-130 and ANG security told me to stop. Said I was not allowed to even face the ramp! I mentioned my conversation with the good Major back in August. After trying to reach her with no success, I was told to leave.

BTW, I and the sgt. AP were friendly, even joking a bit.

This is the first time in almost 50 years of shooting I have been told I could not even face the ramp much less not take pictures from outside a civilian airfield! And this ramp area is not even part of the Guard base. It's an overflow area they and the airlines use. Other a/c on the ramp included 3 ME ANG KC-135Es, an RAF VC-10 (been there, broken, for about a week) and, down the way, airliners.

I am frustrated!

I know, I know, 9/11 and all that. But I've been on bases and been outside the fence of bases with full blessing and knowledge of security since 9/11.

Just blowing steam. Not necessary to reply. Just send the insurance co. a bill for the therapy session!

Rick in Maine

[Charlie Cheetah]

That's because they're all Maineiacs, just kidding.

I know it must be frustrating suddenly being told you can't do what you've been doing for ages and not harming anything.

Cheers,

Charlie, from East of Maine in New Brunswick.

[ipms33206]

That reminds me of when I was still living in Seattle and used to go to the end of the runway at Sea-Tac airport. For several years I would park at the end of the runway (which was on a bluff 30 feet over my head) and take approach shots of the airliners. There was no military base on the field. About a year before 9/11 I was there and the port police came by and got on their bull horn and ordered me to leave. Mind you this area is on a public road not a port road. That really steamed me and they would not give me a reason why. Shortly after they posed signs in the area prohibiting parking anywhere in that area. SUCKS!!!!

[Jonathan_Lotton]

Yikes :D

While I understand where they are coming from, I am having trouble seeing the extreme danger in someone even looking at the flightline. Especially from public land.

I'm going to be going over to Kingsley to hopefully shoot some approaches and departures, I hope I dont get what you got :)

[Les / Creative Edge Photo]

You are on public property.

As far as I know there is no law forbiding the photographing of aircraft, military or civilian.

You should have asked them what law are you in violation.

You should have asked them to call on civilian police.

If such then you ask the civilian police what law is being violated.

Short of you possibly illegally parking, I think all you needed to say was "THANK YOU for your advice but since I am not violating any laws, I'll just stay here." " Oh BTW have a nice day."

I could go on in a political, post 9/11 B.S., rant about fear and paranioa, esp. fear-mongering by those who want to abuse power from elected officials to those who are carrying out laws but I will stop right now.

I leave one very thought provoking quote.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Franklin's Contributions to the Conference on February 17 (III) Fri, Feb 17, 1775

[yardbird78]

Pre 9-11 St Louis Lambert International Airport had a parking lot just off Lindbergh Blvd off the west end of the two parallel runways. It was big enough for about a dozen cars and usually had a least a few airplane buffs watching the landing or departing planes. They were mostly commercial but occasionally the F-4 and later F-15 of the MO ANG 131st FW would make an appearance. Right after 9-11, this lot was roped off and no one was allowed to stop there. About a year ago or a little more, they built a new runway right through that area so it doesn't even exist now.

[Jonathan_Lotton]

Well, I contacted the fields PAO and asked if it were permissable. He said however I may be asked by security personel why I am there. However it may also help that I have a history with them.

[Wild Bill]

You are on public property.

As far as I know there is no law forbiding the photographing of aircraft, military or civilian.

You should have asked them what law are you in violation.

Absolutely! If you're on public property and not violating any laws (such as illegally parking) then you're okay. If you're on private property that's fine too, as long as you have the owner's permission.

There is no law in the US (or Canada) prohibiting photography of aircraft. Even so, your best bet is to ask the officer for their supervisor's name and contact number, thank them politely and leave. When you get home, call the supervisor and call the civilian security office (if there is one) at the airport. Ask both of them to resolve the issue and assure you that it won't happen again (if they push back, ask them for a copy of the relevant law).

I also read a lot on Airliners.net's forums and this is becoming more and more of a problem, especially in the USA and the UK. Here's a very good thread about someone who went through the same thing. If you don't want to read it, the short version is that he's a lawyer and after talking with the officer's supervisor, the officer was brought in for "extra training" and the gent received an apology. It probably went so well because he was professional about it - don't risk ruffling any feathers!

http://www1.airliners.net/discussions/avia...ead.main/256078

WB

[g0_command0]

The marines at Miramar will tell you to go away, even if you are on public land.

[cowie165]

The silliest thing is that if you were a member of an issue-motivated group that was keen on espionage, there are much subtler ways to acquire photographs than with a macro lens whilst on public property!?

Such strange behaviour from the security guys. I have seen the rent-a-cops at the air force base near me and most are so overweight they'd be flat out trying to catch a cold.

The air force police dogs are a different story!

[P-38 guy]

Read here The Photographer’s Rights . This might help you out.

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

Mike

[Les / Creative Edge Photo]

The marines at Miramar will tell you to go away, even if you are on public land.

And you'd be in your right to say "NO THANK YOU!"

[Chappie]

This is ridiculous! I can understand their behavior if you hand a trunk full of Stingers or SA-7s, but being armed with nothing more than a big lens for the purpose of photographing 40 year old tankers?!!? That is nuts.

Chappie

[Tomcat7742]

They probably think that you are taking pictures of some sensative building or what not. Meantime the terrorist they are trying to prevent from doing so is laughing using Google Earth looking at everything from above.

Governemnt = no common sense

- Chris

[GreyGhost]

Back in the 80s when I use to spot outside of El Toro my brother and I had the priviledge of meeting some Marine MPs who came out of the base proper to see what we were up to ... We just told them we were watching and photographing the aircraft ... They told us as long as we stayed where we were on the other side of road we were okay by them ... Then we ended up having a good chat with the two Gentlemen for about a hour about everything from the planes themselves to how they liked being stationed in So. Cal ... Couple of nice guys, at least while we stayed on their good sides and didn't harass them ... They and fellow MPs would just wave to us on following spotting days ... Back then we would drive on base also, most times they would just wave us through, sometimes they would ask what our reason for going on base was, we would tell them we were going to the PX which was like a mini mall on El Toro back then ... We always left our camera equipment in the trunk of the car when on base ...

Gregg

[mhoupt]

I too have been approached while off base by Military Security police. In both cases, I was not prohibited from taking photos, but asked to leave. In both cases, they SP's seemed to be annoyed with having to respond to the call and saw nothing wrong with what I was doing. Both indicated that they were responding to a call, as if they were forced to investigate. In one case, they requested I not take photos directed onto the base but other than that, no biggy. They both asked that I depart because I was making people nervous

In both cases, the SP's indicated the pilots of the aircraft called in the issue. During a conversation with one of the SP's, they relayed that there is some concern on behalf of the pilots that the cameras with long lenses appear to be things they may not be (ie manpads or RPG's) and there is a concern that people taking pictures are practicing, ie getting angles and positions etc, for the possible use of manpads and RPG's. The one at WPAFB told me that the pilot was so concerned that he actually stopped his touch and go's and taxied back to the ramp until the SP's investigated. Though I can understand their concerns, I think they are way too far out in left field on this. This is not Baghdad, it is Dayton OH, where you should be expecting aviation enthusiasts.

I would like to hear from Jake Melampy how he gets all of those great shots at WPAFB and other places because the first base I was stopped at was WPAFB, off base on the north end. He has shots of AF-1/VC-25 from apparently on base but for some unknown reason, I can't take pics of a C-141 from off base.

I have one suggestion, take your kids. Your less thretening when 4 or so are sitting out watching the aircraft. Also, don't stand right under the approach line and maybe in a less conspicious

M

[BAM'n'IVM]

They probably think that you are taking pictures of some sensative building or what not. Meantime the terrorist they are trying to prevent from doing so is laughing using Google Earth looking at everything from above.

Governemnt = no common sense

- Chris

Google Earth imagery is anywhere from 3-5 years or more out of date.

Rick, that sucks. Next time you come to TX we'll hit the overlook at the fligthline out at Carswell. There's usually some pretty cool transient traffic as well as the usual C-130's, F-18's and F-16's. "Can't even look that way"? Sheesh. Someone needs to dislodge the corncob.

Les, your advice is logical but a bad idea. Arguing with the Security Police and challenging their authority, at a small Air National Guard detachment, will do nothing more than get Rick's face known as a "troublemaker" and pretty much blacklist him from anything having to do with that area of the airport. Heck, he might even get a bad reputation with the civilain security guys at the rest of the airport. It'd suck if he was unable to wait for his grandkids to get off a plane in the civilian terminal because some ANG SP with a bad attitude decided to make things hard for him. Better to wait until their heads cool down, and seek the appropriate officers to discuss the ridiculous restrictions with - then better reasoning can trickle down to the troops. Being rude to military security folks just makes things more difficult for everyone - kinda like telling a cop to take that ticket he's writing you and stick it up his tailpipe. It won't help the situation, it won't get you the result you want, and it'll just escalate the situation.

[Sean Bratton]

Les, your advice is logical but a bad idea. Arguing with the Security Police and challenging their authority, at a small Air National Guard detachment, will do nothing more than get Rick's face known as a "troublemaker" and pretty much blacklist him from anything having to do with that area of the airport. Heck, he might even get a bad reputation with the civilain security guys at the rest of the airport. It'd suck if he was unable to wait for his grandkids to get off a plane in the civilian terminal because some ANG SP with a bad attitude decided to make things hard for him. Better to wait until their heads cool down, and seek the appropriate officers to discuss the ridiculous restrictions with - then better reasoning can trickle down to the troops. Being rude to military security folks just makes things more difficult for everyone - kinda like telling a cop to take that ticket he's writing you and stick it up his tailpipe. It won't help the situation, it won't get you the result you want, and it'll just escalate the situation.

Agreed, not only will Rick get a reputation it will certainly not help the situation for the next photographer to come along. Whether you're shooting from outside the fence or getting a tour from a PAO (or other military escort) good manners go a long way (like all things in life). Please, thank you and respect go a long way. I've witnessed a self professed God's gift to Aviation Photographers almost mess it up for the rest of us in a group on more than one occasion.

Cheers,

Sean

[Fouga23]

funny though. The US doesn't have a law againt taking pictures of aircraft and still they make you leave. Here in Belgium it's illegal to photograph military aircraft but everyone does it. Some airbases even have special spotter's corners!

[ThudDriver]

In a civil or military situation: if approached by a "skycop": BE NICE. Keep in mind that these guys/girls MUST respond to a report even though it may be considered a minor item. Every report HAS to have a disposition in the reporting structure. So they HAVE to do something. I agree that it's detraction from our freedoms here in the States, but things HAVE changed since 911. I've had some great dealings with skycops also. Two or three times we had hour long conversations about anything and everything departing with a wave. The true success is that terrorists have changed the way we live. As for Bangor, you need to suck it in and accept it. Talking back or getting arrogant will only add fuel to the fire in these situations. I agree that it stinks, but.... I can also understand the KC-135 pilot canceling his touch and goes until the photographer was "investigated". Long lenses can be misinterpreted by those who don't use them. The world is on edge, and we need to adjust accordingly. In all my years of military photography I learned that "sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't." If you can adjust to that mindset, you'll sleep better... Damn terrorists...

ThudDriver :blink:

[Koen L]

Guys, I've read through the Patriot Act and no where does it mention photography of military installations or aircraft.

I've been approached by local law outside of Altus AFB for shooting the aircraft and was told to leave or get base permission, as they had an agreement with the base for such a thing. I gave them my AF ID and told them I was actually assigned there for training, but it did no good. I politely left and inquired with the base PAO about the jurisdiction they have outside of the base and residing aircraft. Basically the cop was telling a lie. Go figure. So I was back out there the next week.

A similiar incident happened outside of Spangdahlem AB.

A good rule of thumb is to stay about 75ft away from the fence and ensure you're on public land. They cant do jack to you.

Jeff

At least you didn't spend half a day at a police station like me! (And I was only pointing my binoculars at Altus, not even a camera!) :)

Had problems at Spangdahlem like you had as well, several times in fact. The most interesting time was when we were standing out of view from the base but an MP car came driving around the hill we were standing behind. My friend and I walked up to the MP but he immediately put his hand on his gun and told us to move back to where we were standing without even leaving his car.

Then the German police showed up, told us to have a nice day and that the base couldn't do anything about us.

Later on the OSI told the German police to order us to come up to the fence and talk to them. The German police didn't agree and instead kindly asked us to come to the OSI but told us we didn't have to if we didn't want it. We agreed to play nice and have a chat.

OSI basically told us the pilots were scared if they saw anyone in the approach and they warned us that someone on base might panic and start SHOOTING at us, funniest thing I ever heard! :D

After disagreeing with me and saying that a landing Tornado was actually a Phantom (some Greek Phantoms were expected later that day) the OSI guy adviced us to walk back to our car and leave in order not to get shot. We just said 'we'd consider it' and had a quiet afternoon in the approach from that moment onwards.

Ramstein AB's security on the other hand knows all about spotters and they are very kind, only checking ID's.

Must say I felt saver doing some spotting in Greece than in the US and those of you that have heard of the Kalamata 14 must know how bad that is!

Koen (who's in the FBI computer as an aircraft spotter!)

PS. Sometimes it helps to mention the Freedom of Information act or something like that that basically means that if the US Gov wants you to not see certain stuff THEY have to make sure you can't by hiding it.

[DutyCat]

When I was an AW1 on active duty stationed at Roosevelt Roads, VF-103 came in there with about five of their jets. They were all lined up on the ramp real pretty like and I attempted to take nice pic through the flight line fence. This overreactionary female staff LT with I am assuming no line experience stopped her POV and ordered me not to take even one photo. I told her I had close to 2000 hours in the back of Vikings and had taken many a shot of deployed and armed F-14s, Hornets, and everything else that flies off of a boat. Taking a pic of these unarmed Tomcats was no big deal. She refused to back down, so I got in my car and took the pic from there. But I always get ****** when I think about it because it would've been a beautiful shot with the green PR mountains rising in the background.

[gambit3131]

To play devil's advocate. They could be protecting the flight line from you having something more sinister in your hands than a camera. On the road surrounding the fence line of DFW they have signs posted No Stopping, Standing and something else. I would love to stop and take a picture of the aircraft taking off from the end of the runway, but the super zoom cameras on top of the towers and the DFW cops in their new Dodge Chargers would be on me in an instant.

[Don]

I guess I am the odd man out here and probably won’t be very popular. But the bottom line is that it does not matter if we like it or not, terrorism/911 and the fear of “bad guys†wanting to do something not very nice yet highly news worthy has changed the mind set of folks who make decisions regarding security. Having some extremist(s) down a refueling tanker, bomber, fighter or other military aircraft, just outside the bases perimeter/main gate (where they should be safe) would be a huge coup for terrorism and highly embarrassing for those nations fighting terrorism to say the least. Perhaps such an event seems unlikely to some folks…but then again who would have thought 911 could have actually happened. I personally do not see this as fear mongering, living in fear, or paranoia. This is just a fact of life since 911 and something that is not going to go away anytime soon, if ever. It may seem silly to us that picture taking poses a threat to the base, the aircraft, or the personnel. But then again we are not terrorists nor do we think like them. Besides, there is not one face to terrorism and anyone could be a terrorist or be working for them (again no paranoia or fear mongering just today's reality). So you or I holding a camera and snapping pictures outside the fence for no malicious motives at all, could be perceived as a scouting/practicing venture to others. You never know and I think this is where security is coming from and I would rather them be safe then sorry. Hey, they may come across as being on a power trip or as real jerks, but I am sure for every one nice person they deal with there is probably three real A-holes that have set them off.

Hey please do not get me wrong, I am all for folks taking pictures of aircraft and enjoying an afternoon of plane spotting. Seriously! I see it as an extension of our hobby and having done it a few times myself, it does make for a fun few hours. So I am in no way advocating halting the practice nor am I siding with the people who make the security decisions/rules/commands. However, I think considering the times we are living in, that we can cut security some slack and let discretion be the better part of valor. As people above have previously posted, if you act like a jerk to security then it will in all likelihood ruin it for the others that follow. Perhaps Scott’s idea above is not that bad. How to get it set up is beyond me, but I think it would meet the needs/interests of both the base and those interested in snapping some photo’s and spotting planes.

Well, that is my two probably “unpopular†cents :) .

Regards to all.

[Les / Creative Edge Photo]

Google Earth imagery is anywhere from 3-5 years or more out of date.

Rick, that sucks. Next time you come to TX we'll hit the overlook at the fligthline out at Carswell. There's usually some pretty cool transient traffic as well as the usual C-130's, F-18's and F-16's. "Can't even look that way"? Sheesh. Someone needs to dislodge the corncob.

Les, your advice is logical but a bad idea. Arguing with the Security Police and challenging their authority, at a small Air National Guard detachment, will do nothing more than get Rick's face known as a "troublemaker" and pretty much blacklist him from anything having to do with that area of the airport. Heck, he might even get a bad reputation with the civilain security guys at the rest of the airport. It'd suck if he was unable to wait for his grandkids to get off a plane in the civilian terminal because some ANG SP with a bad attitude decided to make things hard for him. Better to wait until their heads cool down, and seek the appropriate officers to discuss the ridiculous restrictions with - then better reasoning can trickle down to the troops. Being rude to military security folks just makes things more difficult for everyone - kinda like telling a cop to take that ticket he's writing you and stick it up his tailpipe. It won't help the situation, it won't get you the result you want, and it'll just escalate the situation.

Challenging does not have to mean arguments also I say black listed for what? It is high time that many people begin to stand up (in a dignified but stern way) for their rights, after all is that not what military personnel along with police have and are said to be protecting? If you are going to be black listed from being on "public property" while photographing, I suggest that you'd have a lawsuit ready for you. Last I checked and yes I know 9/11 caused all too many to lose their commonsense and seemingly live in cowering fear, the United States was said to still be a land of laws but ones that hi-lighted freedom and liberty as entrenched in the Constitution. It is still a pluralistic democracy and the right to do such simple things as view aircraft and even take pictures of them from a public place (as long as you can safely and legally be parked there) was still a something one could do in the USA.

I'm not saying get in the face of police military or civilian. I'm saying challenge them with commonsense and the law if they plan on hindering your rights. I am confident that you will likely be left alone if you do so and if you insist on them showing you what law(s) you are infringing on. They do not need possible media and courts getting involved either to hi-light criminal charges against them or at minimum civilian lawsuits.

The USA is maybe in ways going off with undue fear and misplaced paranoia usually fed to its citizens buy its govt. and mainstream media but its still not NAZI Germany nor Stalinist Russia.

Sorry if my post sounds heated, it was not meant to be. I am just tired of hearing, seeing and reading stuff like this today. I'm tired of reading of people alone or as a group being seemingly afraid of their shadows, afraid of made up and/or intentionally puffed up bogymen who in reality are not there, afraid of their own govt. and its subordinates, afraid of freedom, afraid to use commonsense, afraid, afraid, afraid, afraid. I tired of it and I'm tired of anyone and all using 9/11 as an excuse to dismantle the fabric of a free society. IMO the freaking terrorists have won as we dismantle what was to make nations as ours special in this world. I as a photographer have read up all too often this overzealous use of power by authorities and citizens letting or almost wanting the police to act this way. I do not advocate yelling or being curse with any police figure. I do advocate one standing up for one's rights. You do so by asking in a clear and dignified manner the police to explain what law you are in violation of and if they can't to then to respect your rights as officers of the law and leave you alone.

OBL and Al Queda among others are *not* behind every street corner just as the freaking Communists were not for 50+ years either.

Sorry again as I know this forum does not want topics to get so heavy but maybe I just woke up on the wrong side of bed today.

I'm done, peace out. :P