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F-4 Phantom question for the experts...:-)


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I have a Pro Modeller F-4E kit (non slatted wings), but I have no interest in making a USAF bird (or at least no Vietnam Era birds, low viz might be ok?). Are there any non USAF or foreign users of this aircraft, besides JASDF or IAF?

If that is not possible what would I need to do to convert the kit into another variant that is used by other services? Where there any F-4E drones? How much in common does the Hasegawa (pro modeler) F-4E have in common with the Hasegawa F-4J?

I apologise if this question has been posted before, but I am not very familiar with Phantoms.

Cheers

JH

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JH,

As it as early unslatted F-4E, apart from the JASDF F-4EJ & IDF, you could try building a jet:

1. Royal Australian Air Force (all 24 jets used were loaned from the USAF)

2. early Iranian F-4E (before aircraft were upgraded with slats in-country)

3. Thunderbirds F-4E

4. USAF NF-4E (ex-T-birds jets used as chase planes, etc)

The Promodeller F-4E has the same wings & transparencies sprues as the Hasegawa F-4J.

Jason

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Did the F-4Es for Turkey or Greece have slats?

Would it be difficult to add slats to the non-slatted wings?

Greek and Turkish F-4E's were delivered after the production line changed over to slatted wings, plus both air forces received ex-USAF birds that had the slats added later.

Changing an unslatted wing F-4E to a slatted one would be a major undertaking, I'd either build the kit with one of the unslatted options listed above, or try to trade your wings for a set of slatted ones.

Ken

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Greek and Turkish F-4s all had slats, from the beginning.

Iranian F-4s were also delivered with slats - no Iranian F-4Es had the hard wing.

I don't know if it's been conclusively shown whether any Israeli F-4Es had the hard wing. The aircraft from a USAF squadron were transferred to Israel overnight during the Yom Kippur war, and these may have had the hard wing, but IIRC, all aircraft BUILT for Israel, were delivered with slatted wings.

So your options are early USAF, Thunderbirds (or later iterations thereon), Australia, Japan, and possibly Israel. You can not build an F-4 from Greece, Turkey, Germany, Korea, Iran or Egypt.

Which means that no, that decal sheet wouldn't work. This one for Australian F-4s would, though:

http://www.flightdecs.ca/A48026.html

(beware that some people suggest the Aussie F-4s had red undersides - this is wrong, and is based off one famous photo of a pair of jets flying at sunset - with the red sun reflecting in the light grey paint!)

This one will work for a Japanses Phantom:

http://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/decals/c...cam_48044.shtml

As will this one:

http://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/decals/c...cam_48050.shtml

(note that you can only build an F-4EJ, NOT an F-4EJ Kai - the KAI added RWRs to the tail and wing tips, along with various antennae and such)

Adding the slats would indeed be difficult. You would essentially have to re-build the outer wings. You COULD swap the upper wing pieces with someone who has slatted wings - this would be a simple change (if someone has an F-4S kit, but wants to build an F-4J) - but hacking the plastic wouldn't really be advised.

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I don't know if it's been conclusively shown whether any Israeli F-4Es had the hard wing. The aircraft from a USAF squadron were transferred to Israel overnight during the Yom Kippur war, and these may have had the hard wing, but IIRC, all aircraft BUILT for Israel, were delivered with slatted wings.

Are you sure..? My references show that the first batch of IDF/AF F-4E's were delivered in September 1969, while the first testflight of a slatted US F-4E (71-0238) was on February 11, 1972.

Cheers,

Andre

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IDF had some non -slatted wings. Most if not survivors of the early batch did get the refit, pretty early into service.

Now, as mentioned its MUCH more common to see slatted. And of course finding exact numbers is next to impossible when doing IDF.

Another question was regarding non-slatted on drones for the USAF. Most if not all would have been slatted. nEVER say never, but its pretty unlikely.

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All,

IAF F-4's showed up with no slats in the start of deleivery but later deliveries had them. The remaining ones were feild modified such like the US F-4E's were. I am planning an early IAF bird with my Pro-Mod "Rhino". Incidentally, the ones with the most kill marks were early ones anyways.

J, if you are after the definative IAF markings; get the Cutting Edge ones. There's enoguh left overs for several examples including RF-4's. Another reason why I bought them. I'm going to do an IAF RF-4E as well.

The Aussies had hard wing because they "leased" them from US stocks BEFORE the 111's showed up, slowed by production issues. The ones they got were early USAF examples.

The F-4F (Greman F-4's) had hard wings originally.

The Turks bought any and all F-4's they could get thier mits on. That being said, thiers have slats as they bought the majority of them from U.S. stocks. But did get some Germans ones as well. I don't think any are hard winged any more.

Greece got German units but have since upgraded the crap out of them. They also bought direct from Mac D.

Egypt the same, got the ones from U.S stocks, basically a USAF TAC wing ceased to exist after the sale. Maybe some of those might have, but I would venture to guess they aren't anymore.

Spain got C models.

Italy debated but never bought them.

England basically got a J with Spey engines. Later bought U.S. J's after the Falklands conflict .

When we talk hard wing F-4's you have to realize with the exception of the JASF the customers that got export variants either got upgraded or got slats from thier order. The early F-4's were the only ones without them. Most people followed suit with the USAF and put slats with the Japanese been satisfied without having them. BUT the Super-Kai was slatted as well. So just about everybody goes slats sooner or later.

That's what I remember from reading,

Jarrod Cunningham

Austin, Texas

hist173b.jpg

Edited by jcunny
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Just a few small nitpicks...

The F-4F (Greman F-4's) had hard wings originally.

Nope - all F-4Fs were built with slats (and unslotted tailplanes). Germany's RF-4E's were unslatted.

Greece got German units but have since upgraded the crap out of them. They also bought direct from Mac D.

Greece (and Turkey) only got secondhand German RF-4E's, no F-4F's were delivered.

BUT the Super-Kai was slatted as well.

I don't think Japan ever operated slatted Phantoms. Even the F-4EJ Kai was unslatted.

Cheers,

Andre

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Just a few small nitpicks...

Nope - all F-4Fs were built with slats (and unslotted tailplanes). Germany's RF-4E's were unslatted.

Greece (and Turkey) only got secondhand German RF-4E's, no F-4F's were delivered.

I don't think Japan ever operated slatted Phantoms. Even the F-4EJ Kai was unslatted.

Cheers,

Andre

Andre,

Just cracked open the "bible" again (Spririt in the skies book). And I stand corrected. Sorry about the mis info...BUT I was close..well kinda..lol

JC

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Just cracked open the "bible" again (Spririt in the skies book). And I stand corrected. Sorry about the mis info...BUT I was close..well kinda..lol

Hey JC,

I didn't mean to make anyone "stand corrected"... hell, with all variants and modifications of the Phantom it's no wonder some things slip under the radar.

Than again, that's what makes it such a great modeling subject!

(AFAIK Japan did study slats, but didn't find the modification cost effective for the interceptor role the Phantom had in JASDF use where speed was considered more important than "turning and burning" capability.)

Cheers,

Andre

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  • 3 weeks later...

Another question. When the F-4E got upgraded to Slatted wings, where there any other external changes (besides TISEO on USAF planes only I guess...)?

I managed to get a F-4S Diamond Jubilee for cheap (!) and I might swap the slatted wings, however comparing them with the hard wing, it would be easy to scratch-build the slats, farings, and the few other minor changes, so I might do that instead.

Edited by j-fever
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Andre,

Just cracked open the "bible" again (Spririt in the skies book). And I stand corrected. Sorry about the mis info...BUT I was close..well kinda..lol

JC

No, sorry but all the F-4F had slatted wings, they are all FY 72 jets and the "F" first flight has been

in 1973 after the slat evaluation came to a successful end.

SCOUT

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Another question. When the F-4E got upgraded to Slatted wings, where there any other external changes (besides TISEO on USAF planes only I guess...)?

TISEO was introduced @ Block 48, serial #71-0237, same time as the slatted wings were added. Earlier airframes were retrofitted. Israel got it with some airframes, I'm not sure about any other operators, even those who received ex-USAF planes.

It starts to get a little complicated at this point, changes were made to new production aircraft, and the same changes were later retrofitted to existing aircraft in the inventory, so you can have an older block aircraft without the changes up to a certain point, at which it was retrofitted.

From what I glean from references, here are some of the changes made @ this point:

a rear view mirror on top of the canopy for the backseater

Changed @ Block 48 or so, and retrofitted to the fleet

'Midas 4' gun muzzle

Block 56 and later (unsure if these changes were retrofitted)

a different tail cap and fairing @ the drag chute housing

there are 3 different antennae on the spine

add the antennae under each wing, I think these are already molded in to the slatted wing parts, the instructions normally tell you to remove them,

I managed to get a F-4S Diamond Jubilee for cheap (!) and I might swap the slatted wings, however comparing them with the hard wing, it would be easy to scratch-build the slats, farings, and the few other minor changes, so I might do that instead.

Note that the F-4E fixed slats and F-4S fixed slats are different in terms of shape, they look similar unless you know what to look for, the most obvious difference is in the wing fence, the S had a longer wing fence. Hasegawa uses the same set of wings for the E & S kits (I think) to keep the cost down.

Ken

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I have a Pro Modeller F-4E kit (non slatted wings), but I have no interest in making a USAF bird (or at least no Vietnam Era birds, low viz might be ok?). Are there any non USAF or foreign users of this aircraft, besides JASDF or IAF?

If that is not possible what would I need to do to convert the kit into another variant that is used by other services? Where there any F-4E drones? How much in common does the Hasegawa (pro modeler) F-4E have in common with the Hasegawa F-4J?

I apologise if this question has been posted before, but I am not very familiar with Phantoms.

Cheers

JH

You could always do this one. Hard wing, old gun muzzle, white wings........

F-4E-66-0291arc.jpg

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A question about IDF Phantoms I have this sheet

http://www.modelingmadness.com/scotts/deca.../72/ss72344.htm

Was the big shark mouthed bird slatted or unslatted?

There is any good reference for IDF Phantoms around?

That one is a real poser, I also have that sheet, but in 1/48. Still yet to find a good photo which confirms one way or the other. I'm leaning towards slatted, but with no proof...the decal awaits in the stash.

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TISEO was introduced @ Block 48, serial #71-0237, same time as the slatted wings were added. Earlier airframes were retrofitted. Israel got it with some airframes, I'm not sure about any other operators, even those who received ex-USAF planes.

It starts to get a little complicated at this point, changes were made to new production aircraft, and the same changes were later retrofitted to existing aircraft in the inventory, so you can have an older block aircraft without the changes up to a certain point, at which it was retrofitted.

From what I glean from references, here are some of the changes made @ this point:

a rear view mirror on top of the canopy for the backseater

Changed @ Block 48 or so, and retrofitted to the fleet

'Midas 4' gun muzzle

Block 56 and later (unsure if these changes were retrofitted)

a different tail cap and fairing @ the drag chute housing

there are 3 different antennae on the spine

add the antennae under each wing, I think these are already molded in to the slatted wing parts, the instructions normally tell you to remove them,

Note that the F-4E fixed slats and F-4S fixed slats are different in terms of shape, they look similar unless you know what to look for, the most obvious difference is in the wing fence, the S had a longer wing fence. Hasegawa uses the same set of wings for the E & S kits (I think) to keep the cost down.

Ken

Thanks for all the information, I will have to dig up pictures of the tail cap and antenne. Thankfully, the Pro Modeller kit comes with the later gun muzzle. By comparing both Hasegawa kit wings side-by-side, the differences beyond the slats is minor, one panel line, small wing-tip details, or none at all. The F-4S kit comes with the longer wing fence and well as the short one, I think I need to use the short fence on the F-4E?

The F-4S ALSO comes with Photoetch panels the are to be placed on the wing bottom, I read somewhere that this panel was applied to all F-4's with the slatted wings, is that true?

Edited by j-fever
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You could always do this one. Hard wing, old gun muzzle, white wings........

F-4E-66-0291arc.jpg

Thanks for the pic, it looks like an interesting subject. However I have decied to do a Phoreign Phantom, ether a Greek, Turkish or German (F-4F) bird.

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A question about IDF Phantoms I have this sheet

http://www.modelingmadness.com/scotts/deca.../72/ss72344.htm

Was the big shark mouthed bird slatted or unslatted?

There is any good reference for IDF Phantoms around?

The best reference other than the Isra "soon to be released" is the Osprey "Israeli Phantom Aces" book. It talks about 187 in it and has some B/W's of her.

Jarrod Cunningham

Austin, Texas

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Thanks for all the information, I will have to dig up pictures of the tail cap and antenne. Thankfully, the Pro Modeller kit comes with the later gun muzzle. By comparing both Hasegawa kit wings side-by-side, the differences beyond the slats is minor, one panel line, small wing-tip details, or none at all. The F-4S kit comes with the longer wing fence and well as the short one, I think I need to use the short fence on the F-4E?

The F-4S ALSO comes with Photoetch panels the are to be placed on the wing bottom, I read somewhere that this panel was applied to all F-4's with the slatted wings, is that true?

John,

If memory serves that was a Navy mod. I don't think the AF ones had them.

Jarrod

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No, sorry but all the F-4F had slatted wings, they are all FY 72 jets and the "F" first flight has been

in 1973 after the slat evaluation came to a successful end.

SCOUT

Yes, I stand corrected...

JC

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