Trumpeter Viggie started (sort of)

[jbrundt]

I started a prelim on the Trumpeter Viggie and some of the aftermarket stuff I have to go along with it.

1) CE intake trunks and the Aires wheel wells do not work together. The Aires wells are too high to allow the CE intake trunks to fit properly.

2) The Nautilus aft fuse brace and the CE intakes are not compatible without A LOT of mods to the Nautilus frame IF you want the intakes to be the full scale length they are intended to replicate.

3) The Aires wheel wells are not compatible with the Nautilus aft fuse brace without some mods to the brace bulkhead that sits near the wheel wells

4) The Nautilus aft fuse brace works with the Aires burner cans.

5) The Black Box cockpit and the CE fwd fuse correction set need a bit of work to get them to fit together. A bit of work is required to get the kit cockpit to fit with the CE fwd fuse.

6) The CE intakes do not have the best fit with the center fuse. Shims/filler will be required to properly spline the moldline between the two.

7) The Nautilus brace and the kit engines are not compatible. The brace occupies the area where the engines would be.

You may be wondering; where does that leave me?

Some compromises will have to be made.

Option 1:

The Nautilus brace is nice but obviously poses a real problem if I try to integrate the full length intakes with it. It's not impossible but so much cutting is required to get the intakes to work that the structural integrity of the brace would make its use a moot point. I can always use forshortened intakes. This doesn't pose a real problem unless a rivet counter looks down the length of the intake trunk and sees the compressor face a bit closer than where it's supposed to be. This method allows use of the Aires wheel wells, Nautilus brace and burner cans and at least 80% of the CE intake.

Option 2:

Use the kit wheel wells, 100% of the CE intakes, kit engines and Aires burner cans. Internal bracing can be accomplished with styrene card using the Nautilus brace as a guide.

Option 3:

Use the Nautilus brace, CE intakes w/o the trunks, scratch FOD covers (since the ones with the Nautilus brace wont work with the CE intakes), Aires wheel wells and Aires burner cans.

So, if anyone out there is contemplating a "full meal deal" for the Trumpeter Vigilante be forewarned you have a tough row to hoe.

Modeling, like life is always full of compromises............

Jeff

sorry i didn't take any pics....I sort of got sucked into this after I opened the box yesterday and before I knew it the resin dust was flying and I was dry fitting like a madman.

[Rick in Maine]

Thanks Jeff:

This is very useful stuff. My initial temptation for my model is to pick your Option 3. I want to use the Nautilus brace and the other stuff is within my modeling skills!

Rick in Maine

[jaydar]

Thanks very much Jeff,

I have all the stuff you have except the Aires wheel wells.

Tell me how much work to add the CE Fuselage Correction set?

Thanks,

joe.

[GForceSS]

I used the Revelll F-15E intakes with the Nautilus bracing. Only a little grinding of a small notch had to be cut on the 10 O' clock position on each truck. I left out the forward brace wall. It worked pretty well and saved me $$ too.

[Dave Williams]

You could always ditch the CE intakes and use the kit intakes with the Nautilus FOD covers. Keept the Aires burner cans, and modify the Nautilus brace to work with the Aires wells.

[Jack in El Paso]

Hilarious - absolutely hilarious; you must be the quintisential Vigi junkie!! Don't get me wrong - there, but for the grace of the Vigi Gods, go you and not me. Do you have any hair left? Are you sleeping ok? Perhaps drinking a little more than usual? Aahhh - a modeler after me own heart.

Thanks for the info - I have all of that stuff and it is next in the modeling rotation. Might have to think it through a ittle more.

VIGIS FOREVER

[svaz]

Dang! I thought you were talking about a new Saab Viggen - got all excited for nothin'.

[jenshb]

Did you try grinding resin off the Aires main wheelwells to fit the CE intakes? I'd assume in real life that part of the wheelwell would also be part of the intake trunk - or at least have minimal clearances, and these will be too thick to replicate in resin. Also, I guess CE did not consider the Aires wheelwells at the time they made the trunks - sometimes you do have to make compromises. The intakes are so narrow and deep anyway that I doubt you'd be "arrested" for shortening the intakes as long as the section fits the circular fan.

I don't have the Nautilus brace, so will rely on plasticard to provide the necessary rigidity and alignment of the Aires exhausts. Interesting description of events, so thanks for forewarning those with more Vigilante accessories than common sense:)

Jens

[jbrundt]

Did you try grinding resin off the Aires main wheelwells to fit the CE intakes? I'd assume in real life that part of the wheelwell would also be part of the intake trunk - or at least have minimal clearances, and these will be too thick to replicate in resin. Also, I guess CE did not consider the Aires wheelwells at the time they made the trunks - sometimes you do have to make compromises. The intakes are so narrow and deep anyway that I doubt you'd be "arrested" for shortening the intakes as long as the section fits the circular fan.

I don't have the Nautilus brace, so will rely on plasticard to provide the necessary rigidity and alignment of the Aires exhausts. Interesting description of events, so thanks for forewarning those with more Vigilante accessories than common sense:)

Jens

Jens,

I brutally ground on the R/H Aires wheel well and still no joy in getting the CE intake trunks to fit. It doesn't look pretty anymore. It's really not possible unless you want the Aires wells sticking into the intakes. Even if you shortened the intakes the compressor face would be too big (the intakes narrow down by the wheel wells then open up as the head towards the engine compressor face)

Also the Aires nose wheel well will not work with either the BB pit or the kit cockpit. You could probably make the Aires NWW work but you would have to remove the kit's aft cockpit floor. This would in turn put the aft seat up too high. I'm not sure what Aires was thinking of when they made this mod (or even Trumpeter for that matter when they took measurements for the kit......if they even did :) )

Tell me how much work to add the CE Fuselage Correction set?

Joe,

It would be (IMO) a lot of work to install the CE nose. It does look nice but you'll be able to tell right off something is different becuase the surface detail on the CE nose is much more refined and subdued than the Trumpeter surface detail. Add to that the CE nose join lines don't fall on any 'naturally occuring' panel lines so putty, sanding and blending are the order of the day. You will have to do some very, very carefull cutting and trimming to graft the CE nose into place. AND even after you do it'll be a real b i t c h getting the BB pit to fit. Black Box even in their instructions states the pit is hard to fit into the kit's nose, they don't even mention the CE resin replacement.

It's really a shame that there is all this neat stuff out there for the Viggie but it's not readily comapatible.

As it stands now here's what I plan to do:

1. Shelve the BB cockpit and just use their seats

2. Ditch the CE nose replacement and use only the tail cone and vertical fin corretions.

3. Use the Nautilus fuselage brace

4. Shelve the CE intakes and use the kit ones with the Nautilus FOD covers. This provides better fit anyway with the wing and minimizes gap & mismatch

5. Use the Aires burner cans

6. Possibly use the Aires main wheel wells by modifying the Nautilus brace

7. Shelve the Aires NWW

Yeah, I know I spent a small fortune on resin and such but you live and learn. Hopefully my experiences will allow others to make their choice on what to do a bit easier.

Build pics will follow as construction begins in earnest.

Jeff

[Cicchino]

I've been down this path.

The Aires wheelwells are thick enough to be ground down and actually provide a solid ledge for the CE intakes to sit on. I have the Nautilus brace, but chose instead to laminate .080 slabs horizontally across the fuelage join at every point possible. My rear fuselage is rock solid.

I'm making the A-5A and one of the CE wings is cast entirely too thick; it looks as if the mold buckled, so I'm going to modify and fit the kit wings. The plastic being much lighter than the solidly cast wings will help out minimze the stress on the landing gear as well.

The CE intake trunks require a notch cut out of one corner to fit smoothly; I'm also going to use modified kit parts for the intakes themselves because the CE parts seem a bit chunky.

The forward fuselage is far too narrow for the Blackbox set, so I'll use the kit cockpit with the Eduard photo etch - I will use the Blackbox seats. Using the Aires nosewheel well would require some major grinding of both it and the Blackbox cockpit to fit, but it will work with the kit parts that I'll be using.

Edited February 15, 2007 by Cicchino

[jbrundt]

The Aires wheelwells are thick enough to be ground down and actually provide a solid ledge for the CE intakes to sit on.

I'll do some more grinding tonight to see if I can obtain the same results.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Jeff

[Fury]

Jeff,

I ran through the same dillemma with my build expect I already had the fuselage seamed before adding the Aires burner cans, wheelbays and CE Intakes and Fuselage correction.

I seamed the fuselage up so well that I knew that there would be no way of getting it apart, except in little pieces. My saving grace and the reason it was seamed together so well was that I used the Nautilus Brace as a template to cut out braces from 0.40 sheet styrene, plus 0.40 strip along the seam so Tenax could work it's magic.

The way I got them all to fit was by first, thinning down the resin on the main wheelbays paper thin and repeating for the bottom edge of the CE intakes. after a few test runs, I got them to work. I had to do no modifications whatsoever to get the Aires burner cans to mount properly. That should pose you no problems either. Also, only add the engine face parts to the inside of the CE intakes. They drop in and fit snug and will only be visible with a pen light when done. I found that the Black Box pit fit the CE set better than the kit plastic. The trick here is with the nose gearbay on both the kit parts and the Aires set. If you notice, there is a hump to were the nose wheel recesses into when retracted. If you grind away a corresponding notch or derpession into the Black Box pit, the assembly will be muuuuuuuuuuch more smooth and better fitting.

Now you ask why and how did I get them to fit after welding the fuselage halves together? It was a very slow build and when I started it, only the Black Box pit and Nautilus Brace had been released. Everything else was released during the project, which I snapped up and I planned on prying the fuselage apart to get them in, but no joy.

After much thinking, I devised a plan. I mounted an 8" long drill bit into my dremel and started grinding away the styrene rendition of the Nautilus brace in key areas until I was able to get the kit parts out and with the previously mentioned details kit the resin goodies in. It was akin to building a ship in a bottle! I would have pics up, but I'm waiting on a replacement windscreen as mine was cracked when I opened the box. Now I'm thinking of changing the markings!!!

Take Care,

Thomas

Edited February 15, 2007 by Fury

[jbrundt]

Well after much grinding and dust production I can say I was able to get the CE intakes and the Aires main WW installed. As Fury stated the intakes are less than paper thin in some spots along with the wheel wells. I even had to grind away a bit of the kit sub-structure styrene where the wings mount.

The big issue is how the inlets themselves fit to the fuse. If you butt glue them like one would assume you have a quite of bit of mismatch in moldline that results in a step. The only way to cure this was to space the CE intakes forward and outboard. Shimming/spacing in the fwd direction is about .080" and out'bd is about .030"

I glued a stack up of styrene to the surface of the fuse where the inlets mate. It is oversized around the outer perimeter so it can be filed/trimmed to spline with the fuse. I also added some thin strips of styrene to the splitter area where the side of the inlets mate the fuse. The inlet hole will be cut-out AFTER the inlet is glued in place. This is so I can get a good blending between the intake trunk and the inlet throat.

However, the compressor face side of the inlets are too high due to the Aires wheel wells being deeper. This really isn't a factor unless someone really wants to look and see that the compressor face doesn;t exactly line up with the exhaust nozzle. Again, like Fury said you would need a good penlight and eye to see it. For me I'll call it good enough.

I did some more fiddling with the Nautilus brace and I think I can get it to work but with some major modifications.

The CE replacement nose is still being shelved along with the Aires NWW. A man can only take so much.

Just a side note; I am joining the wings to the fuse to aid in lining things up prior to joining the fuse halves. For me it's easier this way when trying to get all the intake/inlet parts in their proper position to avoid as much mismatch as possible.

I took a few pictures last night and I hope to do some more this weekend before posting them here.

Stay tuned..........

Jeff

[jaydar]

Thanks for the response Jeff,

It sounds like the Aires WW set is a major pain upsetting several other detail sets.

I didn't get that set and might not now that I have heard of the problems. I did the Aires WW set for my DS Harrier and that was NOT fun.

I am going to do the CE fuselage set so wish me luck.

joe.

[Rick in Maine]

Fellow RA-5C builders: This continues to be one of the most helpful threads I've followed on ARC in a long time. Once it slows down, I'm going to print the whole thread and use it when I make decisions about building mine.

All the options discussed means I can pick and choose the ones which seem best for me.

Thank you for keeping this thread so fine!

Rick in Maine

[Martinsson]

Thomas and Cicchino. Thank you very much for your construction notes. Notes are duly taken and will be well used once the build begins.

Martin

[jbrundt]

Here are the pictures so far.

This is the L/H Aires wheel well prior to grinding (right out of the box):

This is the R/H Aires wheel well ground down and installed in the fuselage. You can see how much material requires removal:

Here's the CE R/H duct installed. The top and bottom of the duct require you to remove so much material that it's paper thin where the duct and wheel well make contact:

Another view of the installed duct:

This is the forward end of the duct as it fits in the kit fuse half:

Here you can see I've added the .080" styrene shim to the face of the duct/fuselage and made the initial cutout which will be enlarged to match the actual inlet. I also added thin styrene strips to the splitter plate area:

More to come.............

Jeff

[Martinsson]

Jeff,

Thank you for the photos. Good work! I have used several Aires sets before (not for the RA-5 though) and I have always found it necessary to grind away so much material that you can see through the resin in places. That is what I consider to be normal for Aires sets. But it is pretty scary the first time you do it!

I am taking notes for my own project. Thanks for sharing!

Cheers

Martin

Edited February 18, 2007 by Martinsson

[mrvark]

Just one observation/question. Since the MLG doors are normally closed, how much of the MLG wells are going to be visible? Are the kit bays all that bad considering the struts and gear doors are going to mostly cover them?

[Fury]

Just one observation/question. Since the MLG doors are normally closed, how much of the MLG wells are going to be visible? Are the kit bays all that bad considering the struts and gear doors are going to mostly cover them?

Jim,

It's not a question of if the Trumpeter bays are that bad. They are quite good as a matter of fact. It's more a question of that the Aires bays are light years ahead in detail. Yes, not much is visible with the forward doors closed, as an accurate build would dictate.

It's all a question of how much detail the modeler prefers, even if visible only with a pen light.

Jeff, I'll try and get some pics up soon to show you how to make the CE foreward fuselage work with the BB pit and the Aires nose gear bay. Great work and keep the pics coming!!!

Take Care,

Thomas

[I.Martin]

Thanks for the info,Jeff!! What am I going to do now??? I wanted to add some aftermarket to this plane but after your impressions,must think better about them.

Thanks again.

I.Martin ;)

[jbrundt]

Not being one to let something go I decided to try and fit the BB cockpit and Aires NWW.

The good news is it looks like they both will fit. I'm in the process of grinding and dry-fitting right now. Pictures will follow.

Jeff

[jbrundt]

More updated pictures.

Here's a view showing the discrepancy with where the compressor face wids up with the Aires main WW installed:

Some shots of the CE inlets installed, puttied,faired in and sanded:

I did the best I could to match the styrene shim to the inner moldline of the ducting. The benefir here with sandwiching the styrene between the resing peices was that I could use Tenax/ProWeld to help with the smoothing process. It would soften the styrene but not affect the resin.

More to come.........

Jeff

[jaydar]

Not being one to let something go I decided to try and fit the BB cockpit and Aires NWW.

The good news is it looks like they both will fit. I'm in the process of grinding and dry-fitting right now. Pictures will follow.

Jeff

Jeff,

Is this in the kit nose or the CE corrected nose?

joe.

[jbrundt]

Here are the pics of the Aires NWW and BB resin pit fitting and installation:

The Aires NWW CA'd in place (you can see the sidewalls of the BB pit are glued in position as well:

This is how you have to grind the BB tub (notice the 'notch' to accomodate the NWW as well as the areas that thinned through completely on the tub; fortunately these won't be visible after painting and assembly):

The BB tub in place:

I'm not entirely happy with the way the glareshield/IP fits. It seems a bit too 'sloppy' and may require some shimming to keep in the correct position. I have yet to dry fit the windscreen yet to see how things line up.

The overall impression so far with the BB cockpit is good but you have to do a lot of wok and planning to make sure it goes right. It's definitely not "plug and play".

Jeff