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Trumpeter F9F-2 first impressions!


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Hi Shaun,

Thanks for posting! If we assume that we have the correct dimensions for the -2 and -5, it would seem that the Monogram kit is too short. However, I have seen at least three different measurements for the -5 and about the same for how much shorter the -2 should be. Anybody living close to Pensacola and can do a John Adams? John Adams of Aeroclub went to a Museum and measured a Vampire to settle the debate about the CA Vampire kit a couple of years ago. Do they have both the -2 and -5 at Pensacola?

Or do we know for sure that the dimensions used for reference in this case are correct?

In my experience drawings cannot be trusted, no matter if they come from the factory or from someone else. Before the CAD era, overall measurements on manufacturers drawings run the risk of being only roughly correct. Overall measurements didn´t matter very much to the manufacturer who was more in need of detailed measurements for every different part because of tooling. Also, drawings keep getting enlarged and reduced in size for different publications. And why so many figures for the length of these a/c?

Cheers

Martin

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Okay took a bit longer than planned, but here are the measurements. Please note that the station measurements are from the manufacturer and not drawings so would hope these are pretty close :)

The red numbers are the stations used for the measurements.

f9f-2%20stations.jpg

New table coming soon

The discrepancy columns are the difference between the manufacturer's measurements and the kit's. A figure in red shows the station for that kit is further forward than given by the manufacturer.

The last column is the difference in station position between the Trumpeter and Monogram kit. If the number in the diff column is black, it is that many mm further aft on the Trumpeter kit. I have taped the fuselage halves together at station 1 (the nose) and will post those pics soon.

Note that the measurements for the Monogram kit were taken from my -5 conversion which has had a scale 10 inches removed (5mm) as shown in the diagram I did here.

panthercuts.jpg

Edited by CraigSargent
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Craig,

Thanks so much for such a thorough job - really helpful. I am going to purchase the Trumpy kit next week, and was wondering if you could confirm what I conclude from your research:

*The Trumpeter kit is the correct length and removing 10 (or 8, depending on who I believe!) scale inches would make it too short.

*Although it is the correct length, some of the proportions are wrong - fixing these looks far more difficult than just removing a part of the forward fuselage. This is also true of the Monogram kit.

*It is impossible that the Monogram and Trumpy kits *are* the same length.

Thanks again

Jon

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Jon,

Addressing your points in order:

1. Trumpeter kit is the correct length

2. Edited pending revised figures.

3. The kits are not the same length. The measurements here are from my Monogram -2 conversion which has already had 5 mm removed for the -2 conversion. So the kits scale out the same AFTER the conversion. The Monogram -5 is about 5mm longer than the Trumpeter -2. (for Martin)

There are some noticeable differences when the two are taped together.

The other item I just discovered is that the rear cockpit bulkhead is about 4 mm further forward on the Trumpeter kit when the windshields are aligned making for a smaller cockpit opening.

Edited by CraigSargent
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Craig,

Thanks for the clarifications.

I've never seen a Monogram Panther (nor the Trumpy one yet), but given that the two have different dimensional errors, do you think Hobbycraft copied Monogram (as everyone else seems to be asserting?).

At least you've reassured me over my future purchase! The Trumpy kit is cheaper that the Revell one where I am, and I *hate* rescribing.

Cheers

Jon

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Yes they have and no they haven't. there are some parts which are unmistakeably from the Monogram kit, but too many others they have changed to be different or done as originals.

The nose gear bay and leg arrangement is identical, but Trumpeter have molded the nose gear leg incorrectly, having the steering coil on the starboard side of the yoke instead of the correct port side. Will use Monogram leg to correct that.

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Okay - I've been through both kits and here's what I'm using from the Monogram kit that I think is better than the Trumpeter (anything not listed will be Trumpeter):

- Main wheels, main gear legs and retraction struts

- Nose gear leg and scissor link

- Canopy and under canopy sliding decking

- Pitot tube

- Main (smaller) inboard pylons

- Exhaust

- Boarding step

Cockpit will be a mix of Black Box resin tub/seat/pedals/stick/rear bulkhead/coaming/gunsight and kit consoles/instrument panel

Gun barrels will be Aires 1/48 Colts

Trumpeter rocket stubs are light years ahead of the Monogram ones.

Edited by CraigSargent
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Hi Craig,

Thank you very much for sharing your findings. Some good work there! So, in the end the Monogram kit turned out to be too short for a -5.

I hope that a new correct vacformed canopy comes out and that Aires makes new wheel bays, landing gears and a cockpit.

Cheers

Martin

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No, no, no. The Monogram kit IS CORRECT for a -5. The measurements above are taken, as I said (I will go back and highlight it) from my Monogram -2 conversion. I took 5mm off the kit when I converted, which if I left those 5 mm there would make the Monogram kit spot on for a -5.

If you want a -5 get Monogram (until the new HC/Trump kit is released). If you want a good -2 get Trumpeter (with a few small fixes).

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OK Craig, I missed that. I wonder how people found that the two different kits went together so well if you found a 5 mm difference in length?!? Anyway, since you used the stations as reference, you did a very thorough analysis.

Thanks

Martin

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Okay I'm stupid, I'll admit that to start.

I've looked back at pics of real F9F-2s and F9F-5s and I can't tell the difference in length between them. Sure, I can spot the tail, re-inforced canopy (a retrofit feature?), wingfence/inlets (if not a retrofit feature), and the BuNo (when visible) to tell a F9F-2 from a F9F-5, but I'm not spotting the length-thing. I see the difference in drawings by looking at the panel lines, but I really can't see those in pictures. With the canopy open, I really can't spot the difference in length. WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO BE LOOKING FOR? I can't tell.

As long as I'm asking for help, can someone check my math. The difference in length between the -2 and -5 is 10 inches, right? In 1/48th scale it's 5.2916666 mm or 3.33333/16ths in., right?

Is it easier to tell the difference in length when a -2 and -5 are side-by-side? :)

Off to work now where I get to figure out how to "fit 6 lbs of manure into a 5 lb bag +/- 0.1 mg".....

Edited by John Bibay
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I think it comes down to, what can your eye put up with? For most of us, such a difference is very, very difficult to spot, unless it happens at some majorly critical area where it is easily exposed...such as a perfect-dimensioned airfame except the radome is too short...THAT would be far, far more noticable than a general overall length shortfall, because in the former, the proportions are out of whack, and in the latter, the proportions are far more in sync.

So is it worth it going crazy for length you personally can't quite detect? That's up to you...for me it probably isn't, unless it's a proportions issue as mentioned above. Remember Shep's immortal words!

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it's too long...it's not long enough....it matches the Monogram...it doesn't....the monogram is too long....no it's too short...it matches the drawings in XXXX....but those don't match those found in YYYYY.....the kit is a total POS....I'm just going to cut up the monogram....no I'm going to hack up the Trump kit...AAAGGHH!!

Boy I am getting a headache from reading these posts. :)

From someone who has been wanting these kits badly for the past 4 or 5 years all I can say is enough is enough. I feel like I am reading the equivilant of the Python fish slapping dance crossed with a may pole. Everyone goes happilly around in circles as the music plays until someone gets whacked up the side of the head with a flounder (of new information to follow my metaphor) and then everyone reverses direction with the music playing faster until someone else gets whacked up the side of the head and faster and faster it goes until finally someone gets whacked up the side of the head with a bigger fish and takes a header into the canal. I think I just hit the water.... :blink:

I just want to build them when I get the Hobbycraft boxings and this will probably be the last time I check in on this thread.

Matt

P.S. thanks for keeping this thread rancor free, this could have degenerated into a Dragon Mustang level of brew up real easily. And I am always amazed at how much info people have access to on this site. Craig your anaylisis and measurement is well beyond what I would ever hope, or care to achieve in my modeling and research. :)

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John,

The difference in length is indeed very subtle. The only way I can spot it is to check the relation between the cockpit (seat for ex.) and the forward edge of the jet intakes. If you don´t have a kit of each version together, or two real a/c for that matter, it is very difficult to tell which one is which due to length.

Matt, I think the excellent research done by fellow ARC:ers point in the direction that both Trumpeter and Monogram got it right for their respective version. However, it would be interesting to see pictures of both kits taped together!! :whistle:

I will definetly use the Trumpeter/Hobbycraft kit for the -2 and hope they get it right for the -5 which I hope comes soon.

Thank you all for a very informative and enjoyable thread!

Cheers

Martin

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One more time:

The -5 is 10 3/4 inches longer than the -2 measured parallel to the fuselage reference line. Eight inches of this is an additional fuselage section immediately aft of the speed brake:

F9F-2vsF9F-5FwdFuselage.jpg

Eight inches is a little less than 3/16 of an inch in 1/48 scale and hard to detect unless you have a nearby reference like the width of the kick-in step or bare metal in this case. (Wow, look at those rivets!)

The remainder of the increase is the lower end of the tail fin sticking out past the -2's.

F9F-2vs-5TailComparison.jpg

This drawing isn't precise - for one thing, the bottom of the -2 fin is early production before there was some sort of beefup in this area. I can't explain the difference in location of the tailpipes - it may just have been casual drafting by the originator. For sure, the horizontal stabilizer of the -5 was four inches higher than the -2s. The -5 wing fillet may also have extended slightly farther aft than the -2's as shown on the drawing (Grumman supposedly reduced the thinness of the -5 wing to increase its critical Mach number and this would have the same effect because its the thinness ratio that counts) but that may again just be casual drafting.

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Craig,

I just looked through your table a bit more thoroughly. It seems like both kits have noses that are too short, 4 mm for Monogram and 5 mm for Trumpeter. What surprises me is the difference between station 15 and 21. Trumpeter is -5 mm at this station while Monogram is 4 mm short. Yet, at station 21, T is +4,3 mm and M is +3.8 mm. This must mean that the area in between stations 15 and 21 is almost a centimeter longer than it is supposed to be. That equals almost 0,5 meters!!! Now that seems like a lot doesn´t it. It is almost much enough to be a bit suspicious!

The same goes for between stations 21 and 34 but in reverse. Trumpeter travels from +4,3 at station 21 to -2,2 while Monogram comes from +3,8 and goes to -4,2. That would mean that this area is 6,5 mm too short for Trumpeter while it is 8 mm too short for Monogram. Another 0,5 meter wrong in the 1:1 world. Seems like a big mistake to do.

Finally, the rudder is too wide on both kits. Monogram by 2,4 mm and Trumpeter by 1,4 mm.

Or maybe I just got this wrong? :angry:

Martin

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I'll leave it up to Martin and Craig to sort out the table question and just add this note from a Grumman drawing that will either clarify the situation or add to the confusion:

EightInches.jpg

If this is correct and not overcome by events, the increase is eight inches (not ten). I suspect that the insert was estimated to be 10 inches using approximate dimensions for the overall length rather than having this note in hand.

However, the problem you're having isn't due to a two inch difference between station 15 and 16 - it may be that it is caused by a misinterpretation somewhere along the line of the convoluted calculation that the note requires...

By the way, station 0 on the F9F-2 is 7 inches forward of the tip of the nose according to a Grumman drawing that I'm using.

Good luck!

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Damn, and I saw that 7 inches at the radome tip on the station measurements and didn't figure that into the calculations. I will correct this data when I get home and repost. Watch this space and apologies for the my mamma hates me up. This will put the Trumpeter windscreen in the correct place, and possibly the speed brake too, but looks to screw the canopy further.

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