Keith Diamond Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Guys, you seem to have a severe fixation on Tweets...But the Tweet wasn't the topic here. Once again it wasn't and still you keep bringing it up. Tweet basher! Link to post Share on other sites
janman Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Tweet basher! Kinda. Link to post Share on other sites
Trigger Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 (edited) Watch the PBJ banana lead a dance formation of thread locks Is the PBJ Banana conducting a jazercise class? If the "sheer and pure awesomenesity of the raw prowess and power" of the Tweet didn't cause your head to explode, the sound of that flying dogwhistle sure would! The whistling is the warning that a Tweet approaches. If you're on land, dogs will start barking uncontrollably and foam at the mouth. If you're at sea, dolphins will collide with each other, their sonar having been jammed by the flying dogwhistle. It'll be a few more minutes before human ears will be able to hear the tweet, that particular frequency doesn't carry as far as some of the others. Guys, you seem to have a severe fixation on Tweets...But the Tweet wasn't the topic here. Once again it wasn't and still you keep bringing it up. No need to be a hater, it's not our fault Finland didn't order the Tweet. Write your elected representatives and demand Tweet satisfaction! Edited February 26, 2007 by Trigger Link to post Share on other sites
Waco Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 (edited) You know what? Forget it...I can't believe I got baited into this again. Edited February 26, 2007 by Waco Link to post Share on other sites
hazmatt Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Sorry, but if I'm making the difficult decision to employ my military against another nation, I'm going to leverage every opportunity I can to ensure that its NOT fair Exactly. I don't want a "fair" fight. I want all advantage and it to be completely lopsided to my side. War isn't about being fair. About the video- maneuverability like that is awesome. I love seeing it. But I have one question: weren't we (and when I say "we" I mean fighters in general, not just one or the other) moving towards "beyond visual range" and all that jazz? Don't get me wrong, that kind of maneuverability is impressive, but I thought we "weren't going to have to dogfight anymore". Is this just the evolution of aircraft to more and more maneuverable or did they forget about BVR? Just a thought . . . Matt Link to post Share on other sites
janman Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 No need to be a hater, it's not our fault Finland didn't order the Tweet. Write your elected representatives and demand Tweet satisfaction! No man, I'm not a hater. The Tweet just wasn't the topic here. What comes to satisfaction and its source, I get mine in a wholly different way... Link to post Share on other sites
OKB Krasnaya Zvezda Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Well, yes every military A/C manufacturer today are moving to BVR as well as the ECM systems builders do. for example, now the future MiG-35 it`s going to use Italian made ECM just as the Typhoon, A-400M and some other European proyects. ome other companies are moving to thrust vectored engines, stealth materials, very long range missiles as well as very maneuvrable short range missiles. why? it`s better to be way awared of any thing instead of being only "prepared". gentz, I still belive we can keep this post civilized and strictly technical and modellistic. Link to post Share on other sites
SBARC Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 (edited) There is no doubt the vectored exhausts of the Russian aircraft gave them a advantage in close in fighting against western aircraft without vectored exhausts. But the American designers and pilots focused on staying BVR which greatly reduced the combat effectiveness of the vectored exhausts. The F-22 has vectored exhausts which shows that vectored exhausts do give some advantage in making a plane much more maneuverable. But the F-22 has moved way beyond vectored exhausts and employs advanced systems that permit it to remove targets BVR. Add stealth to the advanced BVR weapons systems and it's quite the impressive aircraft. I suspect the counter measures employed by any country wanting to even the playing field when going up against the F-22 will be to remove the support systems the F-22 uses and then flood the skies with hundreds of enemy fighters in the hope the F-22 will run out of ammunition and make it possible to shoot down as it runs for home to be reloaded. But with it's very powerful engines and vectored exhausts......it will still prove very tricky to catch an F-22 as it flies for home after a mission. In the end the F-22 is only a machine flown by a human and all machines and humans have a weakness......it will be up to the opposing side to find that weakness.....but I suspect by the time the opposing side figures out the weakness of the F-22, it will be in a museum with the F-117 and the next generation of US aircraft will be in the skies. Currently the F-22 is the benchmark for others to match, but that doesn't mean Russian aircraft flying their aircraft with the vectored exhausts isn't a great show to watch. But the F-22 weapon system is the top dog. Steve B Edited February 26, 2007 by SBARC Link to post Share on other sites
Ironhead Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 "Tricks for kids". :) Sorry but airshows demos don't mean squat about the pure capability of any aircraft. But then again, Russian airshows have the greatest safety record of any public venue in the US. Snicker. :) :) ;) Link to post Share on other sites
Av8fan Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 (edited) The dancing locks are cool! Now if they could march and do intricate marching band maneuvers. Unless your flying the F-22 its all speculation and semi educated guesses. No doubt the SU is an amazing platform. Lets all try to get along and don't be hatin on da tweet In fact there will be no pimp my airplane for the tweet, cause you just cant make it any more attractive. Edited February 26, 2007 by Av8fan Link to post Share on other sites
Keith Diamond Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Trumpeter is planning to release a 1/32 SU-30, correct? I personally, won't be satisfied with my modeling collection until I have a 1/32 F-22 in 90th FS markings sitting on my shelf. And maybe with a 1/32 T-37B in 559th markings sitting next to it. ;) btw, I googled for the dancing lock .gif after I saw Kolja post it in a previous thread. Don't want anyone to think I found this on my own. Link to post Share on other sites
Les / Creative Edge Photo Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 As Ken mentioned, this is the meaningless justification used by detratctors when all else fails. By way of example, see and threads/discussions about the combat record of the MiG-29. The Fulcrum defenders will inevitably come to the conclusion: "but the pilots who've fought against Eagles in Fulcrums were not properly trained, not evenly skilled, didn't have AWACS support, etc." I'm sorry, I thought this was COMBAT, not a Bambino Little League game, where we have to let everybody win so somebody's kid doesn't go home and cry.Sorry, but if I'm making the difficult decision to employ my military against another nation, I'm going to leverage every opportunity I can to ensure that its NOT fair, just as he's going to do the same to me. So all this stuff about "evenly skilled pilots" is BS. Furthermore, the F-22 is designed to allow sub-skilled pilots to perform as well as their more talented brethren. It detects-tracks-displays and prioritizes information in an intuitive manner, denies the enemy detection so that the Raptor can engage at will, and relays information to all the other Raptors so thta they can provide support as necessary. Part of the original concept was "every wingman an ace," and the jet's performance backs that up. As a data point, I've taken out dozens of inexperienced, not mission ready wingman, fought against Instructor Pilot, combat experienced F-15/F-16 pilots where we were outnumbered as much as 6-1. Guess what? We still kicked ***, and these guys were able to employ the jet pretty darn well for a low experience level. That's part of the beauty of the Raptor....even a low experience, minimal flying time guy can do well against a hardened, highly qualified adversary. The jet significantly maximizes combat potential. Imagine what the Russians, Chinese and Indians may be doing with these variants of advanced Flankers? I'm sure they may say similar things about lower skilled pilots flying planes as such and knocking out more skilled pilots flying their legacy aircraft too? My point is that it is not only yours who can walk and chew gum at the same time. I respect you as a Raptor driver and really mean no disrespect here in anything I say. I merely want to impart a thought that the rest of the world including potential foes are not all incompetent twits with only high school diplomas for engineering and science or without any air combat expertise when flying what are also (as shown in the original linked video) first rate aircraft and just as the US and other western nations do, ever evolving aircraft from airframe to weapons to electronic suits. Lets also not forget that tactics evolve as such in conjunction with weapons developed and employed, materials used and electronic advancements others may have and esp. of those in nations who may be potential foes one day. As I noted in my first post the F-22 in rightfully the current bench mark and as such the mark others design aircraft and other weapons and tactics to deal with. Since the environment of such is ever fluid the advantage the F-22 has is as expected one to be minimized as days pass by, unless as I said in my previous post the hand's of God only flies them. I only ask esp. at forum here were we as modelers are generally above avg. in knowledge on aviation and esp. mil. aviation that we give some respect to other aircraft and pilots who fly them along with engineers who design and build them and not just turn the F-22 into a God. I know you and others here are combat pilots and I value what you may say about your profession very much but I would think your training is to also include the concept of respect for anything and any pilot you may one day have to face in a kill or be killed environment. This is the premise of my points made from the wild maneuvers on the display video in the first post here to the overall concept that the world moves forward and other powers and industries of such do not sit on their hands and just throw in the towel. ;) Link to post Share on other sites
Av8fan Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 I think the pilots of equal skill comment is something people want to use as a metric to really prove 1 airframes superiority over another. You cant compare pilots of xyz country to this country using the same plane cause... so you have to wit till THIS countries pilots get into an engagement..then its fair. I seem to remember Soviet pilots claimed a higher kill ratio in Nam in the Mig-21 to F-4 debate. Of course they weren't supposed to be there...please correct me if I am wrong. A fight isn't supposed to be fair,you are fighting for your life and the lives of your wing mates or protecting whichever city/town etc you are there to protect. Link to post Share on other sites
Chappie Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Hey guys... UMMM... I'm not really sure what to say... I'm relatively new to these forums and I had no idea this thread was going to spark so many emotions. Sorry to have stirred the proverbial hornets nest on this one. All I was really trying to get as is the maneuverability of the Raptor vs that of the SU. I guess I was just really wondering about the Raptor engines to see if they can also withstand the same arial treatment as the SU's... /shrug I did not mean to stir up such sensitivities ;-) -Greg Not your fault Greg. Happens alot around here. No worries. Chappie Link to post Share on other sites
hazmatt Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Hey guys... UMMM... I'm not really sure what to say... I'm relatively new to these forums and I had no idea this thread was going to spark so many emotions. Sorry to have stirred the proverbial hornets nest on this one. All I was really trying to get as is the maneuverability of the Raptor vs that of the SU. I guess I was just really wondering about the Raptor engines to see if they can also withstand the same arial treatment as the SU's... /shrug I did not mean to stir up such sensitivities ;-) -Greg Sooo. . . what's your bet Greg? How many posts before maximum security lockdown? ;) Matt Link to post Share on other sites
Zmey Smirnoff Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 so if a F-22 goes up against a MiG-29, or Su-30 generation jet, but the pilots are not evenly skilled, it won't "count"?combat is not supposed to be evenly matched So if an airfield in Alaska with a few dozens F-22s parked on a ramp gets taken out by 15kt tactical airburst delivered by a cruise missile launched from Tu-95MS safely over Kamchatka - that would be appropriate comparison in aircraft capabilities? I mean, thats one helluva BVR combat, right? Combat isnt supposed to be fair. Absolutely not! But in order to reasonably compare characteristics of two different planes, those planes would have to be placed in /at least/ similar conditions. While I agree with both Les and Janman - I want to add, that no one in their right mind should compare Su-30 to F-22. Those planes belong to different generations. Period. At least comparison of different mods of Su-30 to different mods of F-15 would make sense... but we cant have too much of that, right? At least comparing TVCed and AESAed MiG-35 to F-22 would make a little more sense than just pimped out Su-27UB. Wait for PAK FA (I-21) to make appearance - then compare it to F-22. Link to post Share on other sites
janman Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 So if an airfield in Alaska with a few dozens F-22s parked on a ramp gets taken out by 15kt tactical airburst delivered by a cruise missile launched from Tu-95MS safely over Kamchatka - that would be appropriate comparison in aircraft capabilities? I mean, thats one helluva BVR combat, right? Combat isnt supposed to be fair. Absolutely not! But in order to reasonably compare characteristics of two different planes, those planes would have to be placed in /at least/ similar conditions.While I agree with both Les and Janman - I want to add, that no one in their right mind should compare Su-30 to F-22. Those planes belong to different generations. Period. At least comparison of different mods of Su-30 to different mods of F-15 would make sense... but we cant have too much of that, right? At least comparing TVCed and AESAed MiG-35 to F-22 would make a little more sense than just pimped out Su-27UB. Wait for PAK FA (I-21) to make appearance - then compare it to F-22. Words of wisdom, Zmey. I agree with you. Link to post Share on other sites
Reverend_Jim Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 (edited) Uhhhh....what are we arguing about? Edited February 26, 2007 by Reverend_Jim Link to post Share on other sites
Keith Diamond Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Uhhhh....what are we arguing about? Who does Michael Jackson prefer? Emanuel Lewis or Gary Coleman. Link to post Share on other sites
Reverend_Jim Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 (edited) Who does Michael Jackson prefer? Well, didn't one of the Coreys used to hang out with him a lot? Edited February 26, 2007 by Reverend_Jim Link to post Share on other sites
Waco Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 (edited) You know what? Forget it...I can't believe I got baited into this again. Edited February 26, 2007 by Waco Link to post Share on other sites
Ken Middleton Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 While I agree with both Les and Janman - I want to add, that no one in their right mind should compare Su-30 to F-22. Those planes belong to different generations. thanks for proving my point Link to post Share on other sites
Zmey Smirnoff Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 but I thought we "weren't going to have to dogfight anymore". Is this just the evolution of aircraft to more and more maneuverable or did they forget about BVR? Just a thought . . . And what a fresh thought it is! Didnt we cover that one in ...eh, Vietnam? US scientists spent countless billions of dollars and hours to design state of the art TVC engine for F-22, but they didnt get the memo that dogfighting is over? We should seriously call and tell them! Dumbarse beet-eating Russians didnt get the memo either it seems. What really frosts my doughnut - and I've observed it in dozens of threads here. Su-30 does few Cobras or Kolokols at an airshow and we get threads like this. F-22 does the same thing at an AIRSHOW!!! and everyone just quietly wets themselves. Anyone else sees the pattern? How strange... Missile launches over the crowd from few hundred kilometers away just dont make a pleasant airshow. But everyone seems to expect it from Sukhois. Cant wait for Tu-160 demo! I will reiterate: Su-30 is just pimped out two-seater Su-27. The letters after the 30 show the level of pimpness. Su-30 belongs in the same cohort as F-15 that Raptors seem to eat for lunch. Why compare it? To Matt: Sorry for using your quote - I just wanted to address the general idea that you expressed. Nothing personal. No offense meant. I hope you'll understand Respectfully Z.S. Link to post Share on other sites
Ken Middleton Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 I will reiterate: Su-30 is just pimped out two-seater Su-27. The letters after the 30 show the level of pimpness. Su-30 belongs in the same cohort as F-15 that Raptors seem to eat for lunch. Why compare it? and who constantly compares the Su-27/30 to the F-22? Link to post Share on other sites
Ken Middleton Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 You know what? Forget it...I can't believe I got baited into this again. what? was there a false canopy on this thread somewhere? Link to post Share on other sites
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