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Japan considers the Eurofighter


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Interesting article... just take it as a grain of salt...

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/332c3534-d58e-11db...0b5df10621.html

Japan’s defence ministry is considering adopting the Eurofighter as its next- generation fighter jet, a potentially momentous move for a country that has until now only purchased fighters from the US, its closest military ally.

A decision could be made within the next six months, people familiar with the negotiations said, and the pro­curement deal could run to tens of billions of dollars as Tokyo is looking to replace 250-300 ageing aeroplanes. “We are looking at the Eurofighter, along with other fighters,” said a ­defence ministry spokesman. “We are looking at all available data, not just American data.”

Military analysts say that Japan might be assessing the Eurofighter Typhoon as a ploy to press the US on price and access to highly sensitive technology.

Robert Dujarric, a defence expert at Temple University, said Japan would want the political insurance that went along with US jets. He pointed out that Singapore and South Korea both considered buying European fighters before eventually opting for US technology.

The defence ministry needs to replace its fleet of 90 F-4s, which went into service in 1971, and plan for the eventual retirement of its 200 F-15 fighters.

Industry experts say the Japanese really want to buy state-of-the-art F-22A Raptor stealth fighters, made by Lockheed Martin. But that ambition has been thwarted by the US Congress, which has banned the sale of the radar-evading F-22.

Sugio Takahashi, a re­search fellow at the National Institute for Defense Studies in Japan, said Lockheed Martin had been lobbying the US to allow sales to Tokyo. The US company is keen to expand its market because the US military has ordered fewer than half its expected 500 F-22s, pushing unit costs up sharply.

Mr Takahashi said transferring Eurofighter technology would be less sensitive. In the past, Japanese manufacturers such as Mitsubishi Heavy Industries have built US fighters under licence, but given the advance of technology since, their ability to build F-22s is uncertain.

Thomas Schieffer, US ambassador to Tokyo, said it was natural that Japan should consider alternative technology. “Everybody understands the Europeans have good fighters too, and there’s going to be a debate here about what they need.”

The ambassador said it was difficult, though not impossible, to buy technology from countries other than the US, given the need for interoperability on the battlefield. “You want one set of planes you own to talk to another set of planes you own,” he said. Mr Schieffer hoped Japan would end up buying a combination of US technology, including F-22s, if congressional opposition could be overcome.

Even if the export ban were lifted, F-22s could cost Japan more than $200m (£105m) each, according to military experts. But Mr Takahashi says there would also be economic benefits to buying US fighters as they could share maintenance facilities with jets deployed at US bases in Japan.

Edited by raptor22
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Hoi,

So what it will become is a F-3 (a.k.a. F-35+) with bigger wings etc. , built and designed specifically for the JSDAF, and costing almost as much as a F-22?

later

Ruud

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Hmmm, a Eurofighter with a meatball and cherry blossom/Mt Fuji anniversary scheme on it? Consider the possibilities...

Cheers,

Dave

Oh, and Revell could rebox their Eurofighter with a bunch of Japanese weapons...hmmmm...

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Imagine Eurofighters or F-22's in that cool Japanese maritime scheme.

Given their primary roles, I doubt either Typhoons or Raptors would be finished in those colors.

F22J.jpg

The F-22 comes off looking like a Matchbox toy when it's in the two-tone blue scheme...

F-22J_02.jpg

Edited by Trigger
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Well lets see, You've got the current Su-30 flava, F-22, F-35, F-15K (I would guess that if the stealth duo couldnt get past Congress then Boeing would try selling them upgraded mudhens), Rafale, Typhoon, Superbugs. . . Did I miss anything?

What happened to the proposed F-2Kai? that would work for a F-4 replacement IMHO.

Ves B)

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Well lets see, You've got the current Su-30 flava, F-22, F-35, F-15K (I would guess that if the stealth duo couldnt get past Congress then Boeing would try selling them upgraded mudhens), Rafale, Typhoon, Superbugs. . . Did I miss anything?

What happened to the proposed F-2Kai? that would work for a F-4 replacement IMHO.

Ves :whistle:

I'd be very surprised if they get Su-30s!

And yeah, what about the F-2Kai?

Might be a price question, IIRC the F-2A/Bs ended up costing as much (more?) as the F-15s.

B)

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I don't think the F-35 is what they're looking for. The F-2 is filling the role of the F-35 at the moment. If they want to replace the F-15 at some point, they'll want to replace it with a fighter whose primary role is air superiority as well, the Eurofighter Typhoon. And since they won't get the F-22 they may go for the next best option. Maybe they'll buy the F-35 to supplement/replace the F-2 at some point.

Would the Eurofighter then be named Far East Fighter? :D

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I don't see why we wouldn't sell the Raptor to the Japanese...I'm sure our lax security will manage to let them and everyone else have the tech soon enough...might as well make a buck to finance the next generation...

Cheers,

Dave

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There was an article in Air Forces Monthly a couple of months back raising the question of 'two tier' fighter fleets, with reference to the JSF, Eurofighter et al.

The F-35 is going to be a damned good aircraft at what it does, but for certain performance metrics its not as good as some of the aircraft available and in service now - in particular, turn performance at speed, and outright speed, not to mention weapons carriage (all internal, but theres not that much room). For the USAF, such deficiencies won't matter, since it'll have the F-22 to 'kick down the door' and achieve air superiority, and the F-35 will be able to go about its missions unimpeded.

But if theres no F-22, then what? Consider countries that may well operate the F-35 could by that time be facing threat aircraft like the SU-30, which could fly faster, turn better, and carry more ordnance....the avionics may well make up for it, but the article suggested some nations see that going with the F-35 only for their future fighter needs could see them being faced with a capability gap (this is why the Aussie's wanted the F-22 so much, because F-35 is likely to be inferior to say the SU-30, already in service in Asia, in some ways considered pretty important!).

Some airforces may adopt a'two tier' approach in the long term, if budgets allow - F-35 as the bread and butter fighter, for most ground attack missions, but for air superiority, what if its not as good at that?

F-22 would be nice, but they don't want to export it....Typhoon with Tranche 3 capabilities should be pretty darn capable, and offer much superior flight performance to JSF, possibly a good second option if the US doesn't want to sell the Raptor? Maybe as the Raptor ages and its technologies become less sensitive, and competition slowly catches up, the US will agree to export it...but who knows.

Not wanting to kick off an argument, merely through a hat into the ring with that article said....Feb 07 issue if you want to look :thumbsup:

Edited by Will2K65
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And yeah, what about the F-2Kai?

Might be a price question, IIRC the F-2A/Bs ended up costing as much (more?) as the F-15s.

More than twice as much, if the Japanese aviation press is to be believed. According to published figures, supposedly direct from the Self Defense Ministry, for the price of one F-2 Japan could have bought 2 F-15s or 3 F-16s. The F-2 held the record for the world's most expensive single-seat, single-engine fighter. Although it may have been beaten by the F-35 by now.

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For the USAF, such deficiencies won't matter, since it'll have the F-22 to 'kick down the door' and achieve air superiority, and the F-35 will be able to go about its missions unimpeded.

Kind of negates the need for the F-35. If you take away the need for L.O. characteristics, many of the other capabilities can be rolled into an upgraded F-15E, Block 60 F-16, and UCAV's, along with increasing the F-22 buy.

Maybe as the Raptor ages and its technologies become less sensitive, and competition slowly catches up, the US will agree to export it...but who knows.

As it stands today, the Raptor program is a "Get 'em, while they're hot" item. They are almost half way through the currently authorized production run, so it's not like they'll be rolling off the lines for years to come, unless they increase the production numbers.

Regards,

Murph

Edited by Murph
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Kind of negates the need for the F-35. If you take away the need for L.O. characteristics, many of the other capabilities can be rolled into an upgraded F-15E, Block 60 F-16, and UCAV's, along with increasing the F-22 buy.

I suppose, but there is something to be said about having 1700 LO platforms when push comes to shove + another 480 from the DoN. Though I still want to see atleast 380 F-22s...

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I suppose, but there is something to be said about having 1700 LO platforms when push comes to shove

How much is enough? L.O. isn't a free ride, like anything else you sacrifice other capabilities to get it, primarily weapons load. In the case of an air to ground fighter that becomes much more important. It also adds to the cost of buying the aircraft and maintaining it through its lifetime. I certainly wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a 1700 aircraft buy either.

Regards,

Murph

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How much is enough? L.O. isn't a free ride, like anything else you sacrifice other capabilities to get it, primarily weapons load. In the case of an air to ground fighter that becomes much more important. It also adds to the cost of buying the aircraft and maintaining it through its lifetime. I certainly wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a 1700 aircraft buy either.

That is the question... but if the F-35 is used with it's full stealth on the first few days of the war and then transitions to using it's external hard points- then the disadvantages of the internal carriage of weapons can be over come. It's good to have the capability just in case since the F-16 and F-15 are going to be 50 year old platforms by that time and the JSF is roughly the same price as brand new F-15E- why buy an old plane when you can buy a new one that is grossly superior is my reasoning.

I don't doubt the 1700 planes is never going to materialize. I do hope the SECAF and CSAF hold the line on the 1763 number becuase if you give the budget cutters even a single millimeter, they'll take a mile. If the Air Force and DoN hold hte line on the current numbers hopefully we get atleast 2/3 of the planes currently planned for.

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I wouldn't be so quick to forget the F-2... Japan has equipped 3 squadrons with them, with enough left in the production line to re-equip 8th Hikotai as well (currently flying F-4EJ Kais). They paid an arm and a leg for those jets, you can bet your sweet watusie they're gonna get their money's worth out of 'em.

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I don't doubt the 1700 planes is never going to materialize. I do hope the SECAF and CSAF hold the line on the 1763 number becuase if you give the budget cutters even a single millimeter, they'll take a mile. If the Air Force and DoN hold hte line on the current numbers hopefully we get atleast 2/3 of the planes currently planned for.

LMAO... no offense but the services do not give to the budget cutters... they come in and hack our budget. Now, our Admiral used to try and play with money and numbers but he was told what his budget would be. The budget is set by the civilians (Congress) and the services have to do what they can with it.

Rodney

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In the latest Airforces magazine, the LM JSF program managers alludes to another six countries being interested in the F-35. I wouldn't be surprised if Japan was one of them for replacing it's F-4 fleet. It gives them LO and they may be able to get into the production/work share part of the program. Also, I believe in the same article, they talk about Congress still not authorizing F-22 for foreign sale even though LM would like to sell to Japan to lower cost and keep production going/

Rodney

Edited by Rodney
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I don't see why we wouldn't sell the Raptor to the Japanese...I'm sure our lax security will manage to let them and everyone else have the tech soon enough...might as well make a buck to finance the next generation...

Cheers,

Dave

I believe they want the same stipulations as they got for the F15J/DJ and that's build the F22 there which isn't going to happen this time around.

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I really hope that when all is said & done that the JASDF does get the F-22A, regardless if not a lot of it is built in Japan. I would think they would go with a "high-low" mix w/ the F-35 like the USAF.

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