Super Hornets 'out of date in 10 years'

[Just call me Ray]

So what's new about that? Every airplane ever developed was obsolete before the first test flight.

Not every airplane....

:D

[Daniel_B]

Should have kept the Tomcat and scrapped the Whornet program ten years ago. Thank you Dick Cheney.

Careful saying things like that around here--some of the SH lovers are awfully sensitive. I believe the term is, "inferiority... complex..."

Daniel

[Waco]

Careful saying things like that around here--some of the SH lovers are awfully sensitive. I believe the term is, "inferiority... complex..."

True or not, try this fact on for size: there are zero flying F-14s in current USN service. How many Hornets of varying models are there?

As mentioned earlier...its over.

[Murph]

Not every airplane....

:D

And of course....

[volzj]

It always ends up back on the Tweet eventually doesn't it... <_<

[BjornB17]

I'm getting so sick of that damned tweet!

Edited March 24, 2007 by BjornB17

[Just call me Ray]

And of course....

:lol: :(

Damn, I knew I forgot something!

[Murph]

I'm getting so sicked of that damned tweet!

The Mighty Tweet :lol: has that effect on many people.

No doubt awed by its greatness.

Regards,

Murph

[yardbird78]

"Obsolete" means when there is technology for something better. The Mighty TWEET was around for many years and trained many fledgling pilots, but it was still obsolete the whole time. (Ducks for cover while pulling on flak vest, helmet and steel jock strap.)

Darwin

[texgal45]

"Obsolete" means when there is technology for something better. The Mighty TWEET was around for many years and trained many fledgling pilots, but it was still obsolete the whole time. (Ducks for cover while pulling on flak vest, helmet and steel jock strap.)Darwin

While you are installing all that personal protection equipment, ask the supply Sergeant to issue you a new bar of soap and then use it to wash out your dirty mouth!

Grandma L

Edited March 24, 2007 by texgal45

[Daniel_B]

True or not, try this fact on for size: there are zero flying F-14s in current USN service.

Seriously? When the heck did this happen?

On a related note: Steve Young is retired; Michael Vick is still playing.

Daniel

[habu2]

While you are installing all that personal protection equipment, ask the supply Sergeant to issue you a new bar of soap and then use it to wash out your dirty mouth!

Soap is soooo obsolete.....

[strikeeagle801]

Seriously? When the heck did this happen?

October 4, 2006 was the last flight of the F-14, according to Wikipedia.

Aaron

Edited March 24, 2007 by strikeeagle801

[GreyGhost]

Seriously? When the heck did this happen?

On a related note: Steve Young is retired; Michael Vick is still playing.

Daniel

:(

And suit up Steve Young today and he'll get mowed down pretty quickly ...

Gregg

[Sig Saur & Son]

We can rebuild him, make him better...

[GreyGhost]

We can rebuild him, make him better...

:D

That was Steve Austin ! :(

Gregg

[Sig Saur & Son]

Duh, we all know the mighty 'Cat has retired. And, we all understand that all great airframes sooner or later have to retire, replaced by a better weapons system. What many of us struggle with is the replacement of the Tomcat by a system that is less capable in many of the arenas that make a fighter/attack aircraft great. I never heard of an aircraft becoming famous because it only needed twelve hours of maintenance for each hour in flight. Maybe the Hornet will be the first. Below are two photos. The first depicts a Hornet struggling toward Mach. The other depicts a Tomcat trying to avoid accidentally passing thru Mach.

Edited March 24, 2007 by Sig Saur & Son

[janman]

Below are two photos. The first depicts a Hornet struggling toward Mach. The other depicts a Tomcat trying to avoid accidentally passing thru Mach.

:(

[GreyGhost]

They are very beautiful pictures Dave , but I don't see the Rhino struggling very much in that shot nor do I see the Tomcat fighting against breaking the SB to much either ... :unsure: They both look like high subsonic passes to me ...

I took some similar shots too in a earlier timeframe albeit much grainer ...

(Miramar 1986)

(Miramar 1986)

Sorry for the quality ... Combo of a young, bad photographer, 80s developing and a late 90s scanner ... :lol:

Gregg

[BjornB17]

Duh, we all know the mighty 'Cat has retired. And, we all understand that all great airframes sooner or later have to retire, replaced by a better weapons system. What many of us struggle with is the replacement of the Tomcat by a system that is less capable in many of the arenas that make a fighter/attack aircraft great. I never heard of an aircraft becoming famous because it only needed twelve hours of maintenance for each hour in flight. Maybe the Hornet will be the first. Below are two photos. The first depicts a Hornet struggling toward Mach. The other depicts a Tomcat trying to avoid accidentally passing thru Mach.

According to those two pictures, tell me which one is obviously using the afterburner!

[Sig Saur & Son]

Not one to throw another JP-8 soaked log on the fire, but here goes,

MAGAZINE: F0202

ARTICLE: The Decline of USN Tactical Airpower:

A Solution? (also called F-14 vs. F/A-18

AUTHOR: Bob Kress and Rear Adm. Paul Gillcrist, U.S. Navy (Retired)

EDITOR: BD/RP

Copy ls

The requirements for a practical deep interdiction fighter/bomber have long been the subject of controversy within the naval aviation community, especially when it comes to the F-14D Tomcat versus F/A-18 Super Hornet. Often, however, the definition of “deep interdiction†is changed to fit the aircraft under discussion, rather than taking into account the real-world theater of operations for which it is destined.

Events over Afghanistan, however, have forced us to formalize what is really needed if an aircraft is to strike an enemy deep within its country. Today, we know that the politics of surrounding countries can dictate mission distances that stretch the ability of current aircraft to their limits. The U.S. relies on Navy aircraft carriers as bases. So, when putting fighter/bombers over Afghan targets, which aircraft led the charge?—the tried-and-true F-14D Tomcat with F/A-18 Hornet well behind.

This particular conflict motivated us to address what we see as a serious problem concerning Naval aviation assets and the realities of the fields over which we will fight.

As shown over Afghanistan, there are four basic requirements of any carrier strike force:

● Reach the target.

● Don’t get shot down by SAMs, AAA, or enemy fighters.

● Strike the target.

● Return to the carrier before running out of gas.

Within these four seemingly simple rules are the needs for an airplane to have a long range while carrying sufficient munitions to hammer a target and still be able to fight its way through enemy aircraft and AAA threats.

Because our government isn’t telling us all of their secrets, we’ll have to make one more assumption when using Afghanistan as an example. It is, however, obvious that reaching the target presents a great challenge (see the map). To avoid Silkworm-class missiles, the carrier battle group probably would not want to venture north of a line joining Masqat, Oman and Ahmadabad, Pakistan. Along this line, the group would be somewhat west of Karachi. Reaching Kabul would require a one-way flight of roughly 825 statute miles. Assuming the use of S-3 tankers, an F-14D strike, refueling somewhere between Quetta and Sukkur, Pakistan, wouldn’t have any trouble attacking targets in the northernmost parts of Afghanistan. If, however, an F-18 refuels in the same spot, it will barely make it to Kabul. The un-refueled radius of an F-14D carrying the normal strike load (four 2,000-pound LGBs, two HARMs and two Sidewinders plus 675 rounds of 20mm and two, 280-gallon external tanks) is at least 500 miles. Accompanying F-18s have only a 350-mile radius carrying about half the bomb load. To complete the picture of mission distances, the S-3s would have to dash back to the CVs, hot-refuel and meet the raid coming out of Afghanistan, which would be much in need of JP-4 cocktails.

Why are we nit picking over mission details? Easy! At the beginning of the studies that led to this article, we were convinced that the Afghan campaign would be an all-USAF show, and that would lead to questions of carrier-fleet effectiveness. But map studies combined with knowledge of geopolitical restrictions showed that carrier assets, primarily the F-14D, were just about the U.S.’s only option. This has clearly been substantiated by events.

Of course, the F-14Ds were not the first to hit targets in Afghanistan; B-2 stealth bombers each carried 16, 2,000-pound GPS-guided bombs. They flew from Whiteman AFB in Missouri—a 33-hour round trip. Further, big-time USAF strategic air assets—B-52s and B-1s—arrived shortly afterward.

It was soon apparent that USAF tactical aircraft were not being used in Afghanistan. We went back to the maps and found that, even given unlimited in-flight tanker refueling, the USAF F-15 and F-16 could not be used without a Middle Eastern ground base. Turkish bases were simply too far away and would require refueling over hostile areas. Only the use of tactical air bases in Turkmenistan and/or Uzbekistan would work, and this would allow only partial coverage of Afghanistan.

The big question becomes: does the Navy have the assets to be able to carry this kind of war into the future and what kind of planning is in place? To cut to the chase, the discussion once again reverts to whether or not the new Super Hornet will really cut the mustard or the Navy has taken yet another wrong turn that will cost us dearly on the battlefield.

The subject of the erosion of Naval aviation has nagged both of us ever since the cancellation of the A-12 program by the Secretary of Defense in the late ’80s. It was a watershed for a number of reasons, not the least of which was a level of bad management that hadn’t been seen in the Pentagon for decades! We can look back on that day and clearly see that the unraveling of the fabric of Naval aviation would become a long-term trend. Neither of us contends that the A-12, as envisioned by Navy leaders, was the right airplane to develop at that point in history; in fact, it wasn’t! That, however, is another story for another time.

We have put off writing this article simply because we know it is likely to ruffle many feathers in the Pentagon and on Capitol Hill, but events in Afghanistan again brought our main arguments into focus. Is writing this kind of article worth it? we wondered; we might be seen to be “piling it on†when the Navy is in difficulty and clearly on a steep, downhill slide? Well, we have listened, with no small restraint, to the pontifications that justify how well the Navy is doing with its favorite program, the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet—despite unimpeachable reports to the contrary from the guys in the fleet; comments made to us by young fleet pilots who have flown the airplane and describe it as “a dog†carry much more weight with us than statements from senior officers and civilians higher in the food chain. But certain pontifications in a statement by a senior Naval officer who should have known better served as the last straw.

The pronouncement appeared along with a spate of triumphal announcements that celebrated the “successful†completion of the Super Hornet’s first operational evaluation (OPEVAL). In a publication called “Inside Washington,†the Navy’s director of operational testing is quoted as saying that the Super Hornet was superior to its earlier models “… in every category but three: acceleration, maximum speed and sustained turning performance.†This pronouncement boggled our minds because these are the very performance capabilities that determine a tactical airplane’s survival. Then, as if to justify this “hand grenade,†the officer is quoted as stating that the Navy has sacrificed speed in the Super Hornet for other beneficial capabilities, and he asserts, “brute speed is no longer the discriminator it once was when the benchmark was the Soviet threat.†It is clear to us that this naval officer doesn’t have a clue about aerial combat and the importance of total energy in the complex equation of energy maneuverability. Nor does he seem to understand that Third World countries all around the globe are purchasing the very latest operational Russian-built fighters that are also licensed for production in China. The Russian aerial threat still exists; what has changed is that the pilots aren’t Russians.

As a nation, we have always had the means to protect our own global interests as well as those of other countries. Short of nuclear war, the carrier battle groups have been able to strike on very short notice. A President’s first question in time of crisis is often, “Where are the carriers?â€

With a layered defense, including air assets, guided-missile cruisers and frigates and undersea backing, the carrier battle groups are pretty well invulnerable. On the longer Nimitz-class carrier, we see the F-14D—a truly long-range fighter/bomber—plus lightweight F/A-18A fighter/bombers. The long-range A-6 bomber has gone forever, but its derivative, the EA-6B Electronic Warfare (EW) aircraft is in place and is in much demand by both the USN and the USAF. This country’s Desert Fox and Kosovo experiences have, at last—and correctly—shifted the focus away from stealth and toward electronic warfare. We will have more to say on this important topic in a subsequent article. In short, at the moment, the deck complement looks adequate. The F-14D can pick up the A-6 role because it was designed to do so from scratch. Its performance in Kosovo as a very effective strike leader has more than borne out that fact. With LANTIRN, night-vision devices and synthetic aperture A/G radar, the F-14 targeted not only its own four 2,000-pound weapons, but also the ordnance of F/A-18s, UK GR-1s and F-16s which don’t have such capable sensors.

An interesting comparison can be made to quantify the F-14D’s strike effectiveness. Compare one F-14D and one B-2 bomber during a two-night (33-hour) mission in Kosovo. In reactive situations (no foreign base), the B-2 operates from the U.S. (lack of overseas B-2 basing is a serious constraint and there are only a limited number of B-2s to begin with). The chart shows the weapons delivered—U.S. to Kosovo/Afghanistan and back—for the B-2 and the F-14D.

CHART GOES HERE

This simple chart says a great deal about a carrier battle group’s effectiveness. Remember that there are—or there can be—24 F-14Ds on a ship such as the John C. Stennis (CVN-71). Twenty four F-14Ds can deliver more weapons than the entire 16 aircraft of a B-2 fleet. Unfortunately, the numbers of F-14Ds are dwindling, and they will be almost gone in another 10 years. What will be the replacement?

The F-14D will be replaced by the F/A-18E Super Hornet, which attempts deep-interdiction missions. Though it’s a whizzy little airshow performer with a nice, modern cockpit, it has only 36 percent of the F-14Ds payload/range capability. The F/A-18E Super Hornet has been improved but still has, at best, 48 percent of the F-14D’s capability to deliver a fixed number of bombs (in pounds) on target. This naturally means that the carrier radius of influence drops to 48 percent of what it would have been with the same number of F-14Ds. As a result, the area of influence (not radius) drops to 23 percent! No wonder the USN is working on “buddy tanker†versions of the Super Hornet.

By the way, now that the A-6 tanker has gone, how will the Hornets get to deep-interdiction targets? Contrary to what we’re officially told, a tanker variant of the Hornet is simply not the answer. In an attempt to make it supersonic, the F-18E has been given a low aspect ratio and a razor blade of a wing. This hurts subsonic drag and carrier takeoff payload when compared to an A-6 tanker, which is an aerodynamically efficient solution. Equally silly is the proposal for an EW version of the F-18E. The same aerodynamic reasons apply for this airplane, plus it has an external stores dilemma. To get sufficient range to support a deep-interdiction mission, the EF-18E would have to use up precious external store stations with fuel tanks rather than ECM pods as carried on the EA-6B. Perhaps the Navy should consider putting the EA-6B back into upgraded and modernized production and build some of them as tankers?

As this is being written, it is too early to comment in an informed manner on the war on terrorism in Afghanistan. The USAF heavy bomber raids are fully public. However, it is evident that USN carrier strike groups that consist of F-14Ds and F-18s are conducting the tactical raids. A study of maps shows that CVN airborne S-3 tankers facilitate the conduct of these raids by refueling, probably over Pakistan. At this time, USAF tactical air assets do not have bases close enough to Afghanistan to allow airborne refueling over friendly nations. By the time this finds its way into print, that may have changed.

Although the Navy has been working very hard to correct F/A-18E/F OPEVAL problems, it is worth summing them up: the production F/A-18E/F is significantly overweight with respect to its specifications (3,000 pounds empty weight). This is far in excess of what one would expect for a variant of an existing F/A-18A, B, C or D. Aircraft weight estimation methods could, and should, have been much better; in fact, when we look objectively at the F/A-18E/F, we see an airplane with a brand-new wing, new fuselage and new empennage—in other words, a new airplane. This is, therefore, what Congress would call a “new start.†Both Congress and the Dept. of Defense (DoD) had to be looking the other way when the Navy was permitted to slip this airplane by as a simple modification of an existing airplane.

In combat-maneuvering flight, the aircraft had severe “wing-drop†problems that defied resolution, despite the use of every aerodynamic analytical tool available. Eventually, one test pilot came up with a “leaky-fold-joint†fix that opened chordwise air slots to aspirate the wing’s upper surface flow and thereby prevent the sharp stalling of one wing before the other. They stalled more or less together, but much earlier and more severely than before. This new fix is what the aerodynamicists call a “band aid.†It causes aircraft buffeting, which is generally a source of wing drag. But a “fix†that combined “acceptable†wing drop with “acceptable†buffeting had been achieved. One test pilot commented dryly, “I’d like the buffet levels to be a little lower so I could read the heads-up display!â€

Owing to its high drag and weight (and probably other factors), the F/A-18E is significantly poorer in acceleration than the F/A-18A. Also, its combat ceiling is substantially lower, and its transonic drag rise is very high. We have stayed in touch with some pilots at the Navy’s test center and have gathered some mind-boggling anecdotal information. Here are some examples:

● An F/A-18A was used to “chase†an F-14D test flight. The F-14D was carrying four 2,000-pound bombs, two 280-gallon drop tanks, two HARM anti-radiation missiles and two Sidewinder air-to-air missiles. The chase airplane was in a relatively “clean†configuration with only a centerline fuel tank. At the end of each test flight, the chase airplane was several miles behind the test airplane when the chase airplane reached “bingo†fuel and had to return to base.

● An F/A-18E Super Hornet is tested using the same chase airplane, an earlier model Hornet, in the same configuration. The chase airplane does not need full thrust to stay with the test airplane.

● An F/A-18E/F in maximum afterburner thrust cannot exceed Mach 1.0 in level flight below 10,000 feet even when it is in the clean configuration (no external stores). At 10,000 feet, the F-14D can exceed Mach 1.6.

● A quote from a Hornet pilot is devastatingly frank: “The aircraft is slower than most fighters fielded since the early 1960s.â€

● The most devastating comment came from a Hornet pilot who flew numerous side-by-side comparison flights with F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and says: “We outran them, we out-flew them and we ran them out of gas. I was embarrassed for them.â€

What could the Navy do to restore the fighter and attack airplane capability?

In the January 1991 issue of Naval Aviation, an article reminded us of some history: “After the dive/bomber became a naval aircraft type in the mid-1930s, fighters were designed primarily as gun platforms. However, the strength and power that characterized the F4U and F6F enabled them to be readily modified to fighter/bombers. Each could carry forward-firing rockets, two 1,000-pound bombs or a droppable fuel tank. The proportion of fighters assigned to fast carriers increased steadily from 25 percent of complement in 1942 to 50 percent in 1944 to 70 percent in 1945. The dual role made this great increase in air-to-air combat power possible with little loss in carrier air-to-surface capability.â€

How about a Hellcat II, aka Tomcat II? The first order of business would be to resurrect as many retired F-14s (of any configuration) as we can. Second, combine these with fleet F-14As, the remaining F-14As and even the Iranian F-14 assets that might be obtainable (Iran took delivery of approximately 80 F-14s under the Shah; about 30 are still airworthy). Third, design a program to upgrade all of these aircraft to F-14Ds. This may sound wild, but Grumman experience in restoring Malaysian A4D basket cases to mint condition in the ’80s was very successful, and they were not even Grumman airplanes! Similar success in restoring fleet A-6s at Grumman’s St. Augustine, Florida, facility was achieved. It would be appropriate for the Navy or DoD to launch a study by a blue ribbon team under the aegis of NAVAIR. We estimate that about 200 additional F-14s could be brought back into the fleet. The titanium box beams and bulkheads are nearly indestructible as well as reparable using electron-beam welding; but this is not yet a Tomcat II.

Buying time with these programs would allow the convening of a design team—again led by NAVAIR—of contractor personnel, MIT scientists and other university help to study the cost of building new F-14s. We think the following design changes to the F-14D are achievable for a new baseline airplane and later for block change improvements:

1. Increase high-value-weapon bring-back capability; this would mean that the F-14D, carrying heavy stores, would hit the arresting gear too fast. We could conclude that a bigger wing with more powerful high-lift flaps and slats is required, but fly-by-wire systems allow a more elegant solution.

2. With flaps down, the basic F-14 needs a down tail load to trim out the flap nose-down pitching moment. Allowing the aircraft to fly slightly unstable in pitch, now enabled by fly-by-wire technology, suggests the use of a canard, which would produce uploads and relieve the down tail loads. Two top views are shown in Figure 7: the basic F-14D and the Tomcat II. The Tomcat II features a larger F-14A glove vane in a fixed position and increases the slat chord forward of its beam by three inches.

3. The net result of these changes is that an increase of 4,500 pounds in bring-back store weight could be allowed; this is equivalent to a decrease in approach speed of 12 knots. The relief of down tail loads also solves an aft fuselage maneuvering fatigue problem and brings an air combat maneuvering lift increase of 19 percent. Turning (lift to drag) is also improved by relieving down tail loads. This change could be readily achieved because no primary structure is involved. A further plus of this design change would be that the aircraft’s internal fuel capacity could be increased by several thousand pounds.

4. We appreciate the value of staying with a variable-sweep design—especially for the podded, twin-engine F-14. First, we could have a carrier aircraft with landing speeds in the order of 130 knots versus the F-4 Phantom at 145 knots. At the other end, the mission payload/range is greatly increased by flying unswept as is air combat maneuvering. Why the latter? Because dedicated air combat occurs at below about Mach 0.8 because of high turning drag—an arena in which the F-14’s 20-degree sweep is optimal. And, of course, the F-14 has been to Mach 2.51 with four Sparrows loaded at 68 degrees of wing sweep. It has flown to Mach 1.35 at 5,000 feet (813 knots IAS), at which point the throttle had to be retarded to avoid over-speed.

5. The F-14D longitudinal flight-control system will have to be redesigned to cope with the level of instability induced by the larger glove, which is minus five percent in clean flight and minus 13 percent flaps down at the most aft CG. This is no big deal and, in fact, it may be within the capability of the existing F-14D bobweight system that tolerates some longitudinal instability. For reference, the Grumman X-29 was 45 percent unstable!

6. The F-14D should have some reasonable stealth-enhancing additions—“sensible stealth†as we used to call it—which would have practically no impact on weight or performance! A lot of work was done to this end in around 1990; it included full-scale tests on real F-14s. Some radar-signature experts know exactly what should be done. Comparing the basic radar signatures, the F-14 has a slight fundamental disadvantage: it is larger. Its tunnel-mounted attack stores make, however, virtually no contribution to its signature, and it does not carry a forest of wing tanks and weapons on long-range strike missions (this also keeps its signature down).

The baseline F-14D production aircraft defined above would allow these carefully considered modifications:

1. The installation of the F-119 or the F-120 engines. The F-119 has already been checked for fit. Upgrades of the GE F-110 might also be viable. The objective would be a 40,000-pound class turbofan.

2. The installation of two-axis, vectorable, axially symmetric engine nozzles for super augmented pitch, roll and yaw control (roll isn’t available with single-engine aircraft).

3. The installation of UHF antennas that would be embedded in the increased-chord leading-edge slats to allow the onboard detection and tracking of stealthy adversaries. Low-frequency radar works well against low-radar-cross-section objects. Arrays like this were tested at Grumman in around 1990.

In 1990, Grumman defined many versions of what it thought the F-14D could be. Figure 8 shows one of the final designs. It was somewhat overdone in the stealth arena, but it incorporates most of the aforementioned ideas with very little design change or combat penalty. All of the changes are cosmetic “tin†and not basic to the structure.

Aircraft design

Just as commercial airliners are reaching their design limitations—as fighter designs have matured—they, too, have encountered the limits imposed by the laws of physics. Fighters and airliners are in the same situation, but fighters include a couple of extra dimensions. For instance, a choice has to be made between supersonic flight and subsonic combat maneuvering and cruise efficiency. The same is true for stealth versus electronic warfare. Pick one and design toward it. If you want a V/STOL, design one, but don’t try to make it into a tri-service fighter/bomber.

If you want a long-lasting, long-range fighter/bomber, design it from scratch for the mission as a new or upgraded design—preferably the latter. Then equip it with modern weapons, sensors, surveillance, communications and EW. Let the sensors and computers—on board and remote—give the crew complete knowledge of the situation in the volume of air they are trying to dominate also and suggest the best plays. The electronics will continue to advance rapidly to provide capabilities that are now only dimly perceived, but the basic airplane, regardless of who designs it, is quickly approaching the best that it can be. In the meantime, remember to give the crew IR missiles and a Gatling gun for those times at which Murphy intervenes and high-tech warfare once again deteriorates to the usual groveling dogfight.

The bottom line is that, unless aircraft like the F-14D continue to be on board, U.S. Navy aircraft carriers will be deployed with few aircraft on their flight decks, and most of those will be versions of the Hornet and the Super Hornet. Despite all protests to the contrary, with regard to standoff munitions and precision guided weapons, our carrier battle forces will not have the pulverizing power of their 1980s counterparts. When that time arrives, it will be the beginning of the end for carrier forces as we know them today—and the end of their rapid availability to the President in times of need.

In 1975, an A-7 Corsair II was mounted on a pedestal outside the now closed Navy Master Jet Base, Cecil Field, Florida. On the base of the pedestal was a large bronze plaque bearing the inscription: “The main battery of the fleet.†The battle groups in those days—equipped with Corsair IIs and A-6 Intruders—could truly “kick *** and take names.†Those days may be over—probably forever—unless strong USN action is taken. We can learn major lessons from our past. Let’s hope the Navy and the politicians remember to apply these lessons to the future.

So Mr. President, ask not what your carriers can do for you but what you can do for your carriers

Unfortunately, these words fell on deaf ears.

Edited March 24, 2007 by Sig Saur & Son

[GreyGhost]

A lot of that was Grumman sales dept PR ... The Tomcat II would have cost more than the F-22 ... Today ...

Gregg

[Sig Saur & Son]

Dismiss it in any way you wish. However, you can't change the laws of physics.

[Collin]

WE'RE GONNA NEED A BIGGER BOAT.

Atis

[Rapier01]

Again look who wrote the article: Paul Gillcrist. If there was ever a biased source...

Anyways we can all accept the Tomcat was great plane for it's intended role, it is now gone. Time to let go.

We can also accept the that the Super Hornet is a outstanding aircraft with exceptional capabilities that will continue to serve the Navy and our country well into the future.

Enough of this BS already.