phantomland's duke Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 (edited) Hi everybody, I'm new here! I would like to discuss an old issue about Showtime 100, the F4J flown by Cunningham and Driscoll on May 10, 1972, when they scored the triple kill. Ok, I'm quite sure this issue was discussed before on this forum, I just didn't have the courage to browse all the pages related... To me, the problem is yet unsolved. We're pretty sure the plane carried a centerline tank, two Sparrows in the rear missile wells and two Sidewinders on each inboard wing stations (2/8) (Although I've read about a total of 8(!) Sidewinders!) However, there’s a doubt about the amount of Rockeyes carried. Many believe Showtime 100 carried three Rockeyes on TER on each inboard wing station, making a total of six. (See Mark Waki...) However, Randy Cunningham himself talked about twelve Rockeyes. Is it possible there were also three Rockeyes on TER on the outboard wing stations 1 and 9? What is the right configuration? And now, listen : I'll add some more in this controversy. I managed to reach Mr Willy "Irish" Driscoll and he was kind enough to answer me, I quote : "As best as I can recall, Showtime 100 was "loaded out" with 1 centerline fuel tank, 4 sidewinder heat seeking missiles, 2 sparrow radar guided missiles, and 4 rockeyes." Also, reading "Gray Ghosts" by Peter E. Davies (Schifferbooks) I noticed that Brian "Bulldog" Grant, wingman of Cunningham & Driscoll on May 10, 1972, talks about an usual load of 4 Rockeyes on missions such as Alpha Strikes, wich was the case... So? 4, 6 or 12? Do you have any idea and where did you get the information? Thank you, guys! Edited March 30, 2007 by phantomland's duke Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Murph Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 As you mentioned Mark Waki's painting shows 6 Rockeyes, but I recall reading somewhere else (...And Kill MiGs maybe?) that they were only carrying 4 Rockeyes. I doubt they were carrying any more than 6 or 4 though. Regards, Murph Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Phil_Flory Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Don't say it was only four rock eyes. I have just Finished this one in 1/48. Phil Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bandwagon 106 Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Hi, I know for a fact Showtime 100 carried for sidewinders, (probably -9Gs or H's), as 3 of these were used to bring down the MiGs. Navy Phantoms rarely carried wing tanks, especially going over the beach. From what I have read, the mission that day was to provide defence suppression, hence the rockeyes. I always assumed it was 6, but 4 could have been carried as well. I thought the outboard pylons were empty, but the profile in the Osprey book Mig killers 1972-73 clearly shows 4 on them. Most of the stuff I've read concentrates on the A-A side of the mission. Try these though- Take Off issues Vol.4, issues 42-45, lots of CVW-9 stuff US Navy MiG Killers 1972-3, Osprey Spirit in the Skies Jon Lake The Phantom Story- Anthony Thornborough Wings Of Fame Volume 1 So to summarise,Mission was Flak Suppression, not TARCAP, unlike Showtime 106. Loadout was definately centreline tank, 2 x AIM-7E/E2s, 4 x AIM-9G/H and 4+ Rockeyes on TERs, either in or outboard stations. I would personally go for the inner pylons, but you never know. HTH, and welcome to ARC Joel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gabe Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 I distinctly remember reading a few years back from FSM article that it was 4 rockeyes on TERs on inner pylons 4 sidewinders 2 sparrows in aft bays centerline tank No TERs on outboard pylons. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GreyGhost Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 I think Cunningham mentions 4 Rockeyes in his book also ... It's been about 20 years since I read it though ... Gregg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Woodman Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 (edited) In the book And Kill Migs, Cunningham reports the following: "I was loaded with two Sparrows, in the rear missile wells, four Sidewinders, two on each of the inboard stations, with TERs full of ROCKEYE bombs under them." Since they were TERs (triples), I read that as 3 on each station - like below. Here's a copy of the pages from And Kill Migs where the quote was taken from - See 10 May 1972 kills. And Kill Migs link Edited March 31, 2007 by Woodman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fuji Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Speaking of Connelly and Blonski, anyone make decals for Showtime 106 BuNo 155769? I met Connelly and Blonski at Fallon in April of 2000, even had a couple of beers with Blonski. He pretty much left aviation behind him when he left the Navy. So much so that he asked if the F/A-18 had a gun. Seriously. I think was selling insurance or something like that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mrvark Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 (edited) According to the TACMAN, Rockeye IIs could only be loaded on the shoulder stations of inboard TERs. My vote is four. AIM-9Hs didn't become operational until 1973, they were shooting Gs, not that it makes any difference modeling-wise. BTW, PLEEZE don't paint the seekers black like 90% of humanity. They were anodized and had a greenish gray color. I use a mix of OD and MM steel. fuze was aluminum, warhead and motor were white. I'm pretty sure the Sparrows were AIM-7E-2s with the L stripes on the fins. Edited March 31, 2007 by mrvark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Murph Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 In the book And Kill Migs, Cunningham reports the following:"I was loaded with two Sparrows, in the rear missile wells, four Sidewinders, two on each of the inboard stations, with TERs full of ROCKEYE bombs under them." Cunningham only says TER's "full" of Rockeyes (a non-specific term, which could mean whatever is allowed on a pair of TER's), while Driscoll specifies the actual number: And now, listen : I'll add some more in this controversy. I managed to reach Mr Willy "Irish" Driscoll and he was kind enough to answer me, I quote : "As best as I can recall, Showtime 100 was "loaded out" with 1 centerline fuel tank, 4 sidewinder heat seeking missiles, 2 sparrow radar guided missiles, and 4 rockeyes." Add to that: According to the TACMAN, Rockeye IIs could only be loaded on the shoulder stations of inboard TERs. My vote is four. Four seems likley. Arguing against that is the caption from Waki's artwork, which says it was based on interviews with the aircrew. Take your best guess. Regards, Murph Quote Link to post Share on other sites
strikeeagle801 Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 According to the TACMAN, Rockeye IIs could only be loaded on the shoulder stations of inboard TERs. My vote is four.AIM-9Hs didn't become operational until 1973, they were shooting Gs, not that it makes any difference modeling-wise. BTW, PLEEZE don't paint the seekers black like 90% of humanity. They were anodized and had a greenish gray color. I use a mix of OD and MM steel. fuze was aluminum, warhead and motor were white. I'm pretty sure the Sparrows were AIM-7E-2s with the L stripes on the fins. I'm sorry guys..... but could you please get off of the AIM-9 seeker color? who really cares whether they are black, OD, or silver for crying out loud! It really does not matter. And as shown in other threads, they can be SEVERAL different colors. We all have ways of painting missiles, and that is fine. Just my two cents on the matter. Don't mean to make anyone mad. Aaron Quote Link to post Share on other sites
J.C. Bahr Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 I recall Yellow Hammer decals instructions saying "Flat-two configuration" on the Rockeyes with the TER's... but don't recall the specifics on their research, FWIW. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Phil_Flory Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 Phil,Beautiful model. What color Grey did you use for the top? Dave Thanks Dave, The top color is a mix of Tamiya XF-20 light gull and a few drops of XF-53 neutral gray to gray the color. I think it turned out just right Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phantomland's duke Posted March 31, 2007 Author Share Posted March 31, 2007 Hello, Thank you guys for the informations and for giving life to this thread! Give credit to bandwagon 106 : The Osprey combat aircraft book (n° 30) is one of my references and I have been through it many times, still I didn't realize ( Love (for the Phantom...) makes blind...) that on the profile of Showtime 100 the Rockeyes are clearly on the outboard wing pylons (station 1 and 9) So an other addition to the controversy! Ok, now my guess is centerline tank, 2 AIM7E in the rear missile wells, 4 AIM9 (definitely G) on station 2 and 8 and 4 Rockeyes on TER on this same two stations. And where are the Rockeyes on the TERs? Mrvark says they are on "shoulder position" but I'm not so sure because the release sequence on TER is : first the center position, second the outboard shoulder and third the inboard shoulder. Thus, maybe the empty position was the third one. I'll search for photographic documentation as I'm sure you'll do too. Now, for the fun of it, here are two references in favor of the improbable 12 Rockeyes. First, a story by Jon Lake in Combat Aircraft Vol 5 N° 5 (March 2004) : "After dropping his 12 Rockeye CBUs, Cunningham, etc..." Second : http://www.acepilots.com/vietnam/cunningham.html Here Showtime 100 also carries... 8 AIM9J !!! I believe we'll never know for sure the right configuration mainly because the declarations of Randy "Duke" Cunningham look like a Tomcat : with variable geometry wings! Thank you again, the discussion goes on and that's OK because that's where the fun is... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andre Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 Here Showtime 100 also carries... 8 AIM9J !!! Which poses quite a few questions on the reliability of the "12 Rockeyes" thing. Cheers, Andre Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mrvark Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 Okay, sports fans; I've dug into this and here are my conclusions: Four Mk 20 Mod 3 Rockeye IIs loaded on the inboard pylons. The center (bottom) station is left empty. This is based on the previously mentioned TACMAN authorized loadings, contemporary photos of VF-92 aircraft showing them with TERs loaded to the inboard pylons (Osprey 30, pp. 26, 38, 39, Fox 2 p. 15) but never the outboards, and an unpublished official ordnance database (called CATCA) I had access to for a time several years ago that showed two sections of F-4Js launched from the Constellation on 10 May 72, with each aircraft loaded with four Rockeyes. Mod 3 Rockeyes were gloss white with a single 3" wide band centered 14.5" aft of the nose fairing joint. I say Mod 3 because Cunningham's paperback "Fox 2" shows them loaded on Connie A-7s on pp 19 & 85. The former shows a single band on the dispenser and the latter shows them with the fuze windows that Mod 2s lacked. The Navy didn't use the Mod 4 (the Mod 0, 1, & 5 weren't produced; the Mod 6 was thermally protected and would have had two bands). When loaded as a "flat two" (the authorized configuration), the center (bottom) station suspension hooks were left open to tell the system there was no bomb there to release, causing it to step to the left rack (TER release sequence was center, left, right regardless of where it was loaded on the aircraft). Fox 2 (p.96) says they were configured for flak-suppression with two Sparrows and four AIM-9s. Typical of air-to-air pukes, he only mentions that "once the bombs were away" and neglects to mention how many or what kind. As previously mentioned , the missiles would have been AIM-9Gs and AIM-7E-2 "Dogfight Sparrows" (front fins had their chord trimmed by 1" off the trailing edge and "L" shaped markings for identification--see Osprey 30 p. 26). Also, based on the Osprey photos, it also appears that outboard weapon pylons were commonly loaded, but left empty. Centerline tank was standard. While they are often depicted with black nose caps, photos show them unpainted (Fox 2, pp. 5, 15, Osprey 30 p. 38). Of course, there is Osprey 30, p 10 that shows Cunningham & Driscoll trapping after his first kill with a black CL fuel tank nose cone. This shot appears to show the MiGCAP configuration with four Sparrows and no outboard pylons. I would disregard the Osprey 30 painting (p. 55). Each squadron chose its standard configurations and some did indeed choose to load TERs on the outboard pylons (Osprey 30 pp. 75, 77, 80, 84). However, VF-92 seems to have only mounted them inboard. A report from CVW-8's 72-73 cruise (VMFA-333 and VF-74) stated that because of CG considerations, at least one AIM-7 had to be mounted in a forward well when bombs were carried on outboard TERs. As an "Oh, by the way," USAF F-4s could mount three Rockeyes inboard. USAF and USN ordnance testing was completely independent and often came to dramatically different conclusions. The difference in USAF and USN A-7 loadings will make your head spin. USN F-4 Rockeye loadings on the centerline and outboard wing stations allowed fully loaded MERs or TERs, only the inboards were restricted. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bandwagon 106 Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 To be honest Duke, I only noticed the position of the rockeyes last night! Also, notice that Showtime106 (plate 7), and Showtime 111 (plate 9) has the TARCAP loadout for AIM-7s, 4, as opposed to flak suppression, DLI or strike, 2. I'm wondering if Duke or Willie might have been refering to the flights load out,i.e, the total number of bombs and Sidewinders, as opposed to their own setup. Joel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
longmc Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 Boy, I'd love to see a PICTURE of that!! I've seen some loaded Phantoms, but that would take the prize! 8 'winders? mayby using the dual launchers from the F-8? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Murph Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 Typical of air-to-air pukes, he only mentions that "once the bombs were away" and neglects to mention how many or what kind. :blink: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phantomland's duke Posted March 31, 2007 Author Share Posted March 31, 2007 Impressive work, Mrvark! Thank you for sharing this with us! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gervais8 Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Fantastic information. It will come in very useful. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spooky 01 Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 PHANTASTIC post guy's !!!!!!!!!! Can Anyone tell me the colour of the shirt's they were wearing underneath their flightsuits ? I know a lot a guy's use to wear a shirt matching the colour of their unit. Did my hero's do so too? (I'm realy trying to get my Tamiya-bird as accurate as possible...) What about the hard-top's (helmet's) they were wearing? Just plain white? Any markings on them? Flightsuit's: any badges on them or were they left empty in case of a crash in enemy territory? Any info...??? "Check Six....." Spooky. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mhoupt Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 Don't say it was only four rock eyes.I have just Finished this one in 1/48. Phil First off - this is a fantastic model! But I would remove the two bottom rocks on the TER. After reading the posts about 4 or 6 rocks (which I think the conclusion is 4) I would just refernce this model as evidence that it would be down right dangerous to carry 6 on the inboard TER. Look how low that bottom Rock sits to the ground. Any bounce and it scrapes the ground (and hopefully does not go off on deck). Mark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spooky 01 Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 :) Yeah GREAT, isn't it... AIR DEFENSE ROCK's !!!!! "Check Six....." Spooky. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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