Attn: All ARC resin casters/companies

[Darren Roberts]

I've noticed lately that there have been quite a few of us entering into the world of aftermarket resin casting here on ARC. I've also noticed that we are beginning to duplicate each other's products. There haven't been that many as of yet, but I think we'll see it more and more as the number of people getting into resin casting increases. The problem is that we're mainly marketing to the people on ARC. That means there is a limited amount of money to tap between all of us. I was chatting with a fellow ARCer about this and he came up with a great idea. What if we were to all get together and let each other know what we've got in the pipe and what we're planning on doing. This would serve two purposes. 1. There would be a much broader range of products for the great people here on ARC. 2. We wouldn't be stepping on any toes and duplicating efforts. There are a few issues we'd all have to work out and come to agreement on, such as being gentlemanly and not rushing to get something done when someone else has it on their to-do list. The flip side of that is to not say you're going to do something and then sit on the idea for months on end so that nobody else can do it. We could come up with some kind of time limit that if you don't release it, than all bets are off and it's fair game for someone else. Now, I understand about free market forces and I'm all for that. I would hope, though, that because of the bonds and comraderie we have here on ARC, that we wouldn't be that cut-throat about it. Let's be honest, we all have day jobs and we're doing the resin simply because we saw a need and wanted to help out our fellow modelers. There isn't any way I'm going to get rich off of Steel Beach, that's for sure! For this to work, we all need to be honest, honorable, gentleman. I've corresponded with many of you, and I have the utmost faith that we can all oblige and make this happen. So, let's get some feedback and see if we can't hammer things out. We can use the ARC acronym...ARC Resin Conglomerate!

[Two Mikes]

Darren

That is a great idea indeed but there is one small problem...Gentlemens aggreements rarely work these days. Having seen the dark side of it in the decal business I will tell you that it simply wont work. The other issue is, what if one "company" simply does better work than another "company" but because of the aggreement the first guys work simply doesnt make it on the market?

I like the idea I just see that the two things that may hurt it are greed and pride in ones work.

My 2 cents

Mike

[doctorpepper]

count me in.

i'd say, set a one month or two month dateline.

sure, you can tackle other ppl's work, but a heads up would be very nice indeed. if we can better each other's work, but still remain at the same price, it's all the better for ARCers. the ultimate aim is still for the modeler anyway

c'mon, let's admit it. We, as modelers, want resin goodies to be cheaper. Sure, somethings are really work the money we pay, but i can name a few big name brands that could do with a price review. and having done production (although, with a few less overheads like employees), i really do think this industry needs a shake-up. We can even target the modeler who's not so much concerned with details but just wanting some cool stuff to put on the jet.

Darren, i too have a day job so i emphatise with you. My resin sales probably pay for the usual kit and someone else's resin a month. But i would really like to see us start serving the community in a better way - let's face it, casting technology is available to all, and we could easily reproduce and pirate each other's work as well. i hope that gentlemen's agreements will still exist in this age then... and i hope we can achieve some sort of unity here; if not i can foresee things going down the drain pretty quick...

Edited July 26, 2007 by doctorpepper

[doctorpepper]

double post

Edited July 26, 2007 by doctorpepper

[PlasticWeapons]

Okay, I got dibs on the 1/48 T-4 Dolphin cockpit for the Hasegawa kit. I'm still in search of photos of the front/rear left sidewalls (and maybe the rear bulkheads and cockpit floor).

B)

[Mark S.]

Darren:

Nice idea but it don't see how you can make it work. Sounds like it would be defined as restraint of trade. You can't make someone abide by it.

Mark

[PlasticWeapons]

I read Dave's post up above and he's made some points. If we all agreed to have one resin caster make one detail item and no one else "should" do that resin detail (for example a Sniper pod), then we're stuck with that product. Wouldn't that be considered a "monopoly"? I'd like to have at least another choice, as we have now with Aires and Black Box, or Cutting Edge (the latter no longer does cockpits though). Why? Maybe one guy's accessory is better detailed; or maybe this other guy's resin stuff is cheaper. It's up to the modeler to decide - usually the wallet (or the wife) decides that choice!!! LOL.

As for me, 1997 was my projected release of a resin conversion for the Monogram AV-8B Harrier II to convert it into the Plus variant. I was stalled on finding photos of the 100% LERX so I let that project sit. Then along came AMRAAM Resins and I had to shelve that project. Soon after that manufacturer came out with their conversion, Hasegawa released their AV-8B Plus kit! Oh well.

It would be nice to know who's doing what in resin/decals. What would be much nicer is sharing information such as photo references! That's probably what could help the aftermarket modelers the most.

Happy modeling!

[Two Mikes]

I completely agree with Ryan and Dave,

The issue that you also run into is when someone hints that they are going to do something, another rushes out to beat them to the punch. Superscale comes to mind with the F-15 Eagle Aggressor decals. Scott and I had a plan to release them for a long time and Scott even flew to Vegas to shoot pics of the real deal. Well SS heard about it and released a sheet a few months before Scott and I could get ours to the printers. Did that release cost Scott and I money?? You bet it did but in the end, Scott (I was pretty much a non player in Afterburner by then) released a far superior and more accurate sheet and it still sold out.

Headhunting will always happen in any industry. The best of intentions will always have something go awry. I think a free market is just what it is....a free to do what you want market. Also lets be honest, we are catering to the ARC crowd?? Partly yes but there are thousands of modelers out there who do not surf any websites other than to gleen information about a product and then either order it or buy it from their LHS. ARC, Hyperscale, MM, LSP are all very important tools and resources in the model community but are hardly the majority of the community.

Personally when I am happy about my projects and decide to offer them to the public, I will. I don't care if someone else is doing it because its the customer who decides what to buy.

I would love to be able to share info with people back and forth. Its a noble gesture and an honorable way to do business but do you think companies like Reebok for example would be around if I am a spammer....please report this post. controlled what they do?

I like having variety and I have some aftermarket guys I will go to before others. IMHO Aires is the bar that has set the standard but will I go and replace all of my Black Box pits that Jef did before Aires released them? Not a chance. But I will replace some with an Aires set if I feel it is better. I did that exact thing with the Black Box and Aires 1/32 F-15C cockpit. Why?? Because the Eagle is THAT important to me and I want it as accurate as possible. Was the BB set bad?? Nope but the Aires is better to ME as a customer.

Good healthy competition makes the guys making the product work harder and put out a better product in many cases. I like the fact that I have choices and I dont want to see one person shelve a project because someone else has "dibs" on it. What do you do about the resin guys out there who don't use ARC and release what they want even if our conglomertate has announced it?

While I find the idea noble, it simply will not be feasable. I for one will not drop a project because so and so is talking about doing it. Heck I just need to finish one first :)

Mike

[Darren Roberts]

Good discussion, guys. Please understand I'm not trying to keep anyone from doing a project. Maybe a better way to put it would be to see if we could communicate with each other. If I'm thinking of doing a certain project and find out company B is already working on it, I would be more inclined to move on to something else because it would be a waste of time to work on masters for something that is about to come out. I still believe (maybe naively!) that a gentleman's agreement can work in this day and age. BTW, in my post, I was not referring to any one specific company or individual. I wasn't poking you Dave! :D Greed and ego are indeed difficult to overcome. But I know most of you guys who cast resin, and from what I know, you could do it.

Let's move the discussion in the direction of communication, or a "heads-up" as Dr. Pepper put it. How could all of us let each other know what we're about to start work on or about to release? That way we could decide if it was worth continuing if it was a duplication. You'd still be free to pursue your project, but at least you'd know that someone else was going to have it on the market also. It would allow you to make a much more informed decision to proceed or not. I would still hope that everyone would be a gentleman and not say, "Hey, that's a great idea. I didn't think of it. I'm going to try and beat him to market with it". Is there risk of getting burned? Absolutely! But I think the rewards of communicating will be beneficial not only to the producers but to the consumers as well. Sheesh, now I'm beginning to sound like a liberal! :)

[Two Mikes]

OK well then I will go ahead and say that I am currently working on a host of resin items for a certain family of French Jets including the newest and coolest looking brother :)

If you want to talk about those items or can help me, feel free to PM me with your input.

I am also very aware of another company who has some of the items i am doing but I am not stopping now

Mike

[Darren Roberts]

Mike, I just read your post. I understand completely about Superscale. We got burned, too. I don't know how, but we did! I understand your example of Reebok/I am a spammer....please report this post. and Black Box/Aires. I don't think of any of us doing resin casting as being "big boys", though. For the small resin casters such as Steel Beach, Dr. Pepper, Harold, 3rd Wire, and anybody else (Dave, you're probably a little bit closer to being a "big boy" with your connections :D ) where time is a precious commodity, I see where communication can help out. Like I said in my previous post, no one would be "barred", if you will, from doing a project. It would be more what you said, with a flow of information and help between the different casters. I agree that there could, and would, be problems. But again, I think those could be worked out. We are kind of doing something similar with Afterburner, Fightertown, and SB Decals. While we are still doing our own thing, we are being more of collaborators than competitors. Of course, some of that could be that we share the same artist! :)

Good discussion...keep it going!

[jcunny]

Beligerent post removed by me....

JC

Edited July 26, 2007 by jcunny

[Two Mikes]

Mike wrote:

Darren wrote:

I'm going to put my neck on the chopping block and say something that I feel needs to be said. Superscale does NOT swoop in and steal ideas from other decal manufacturers. It amazes me that these accusations continue to be made on this forum.

Go back and read some of the comments made about Superscale.

If they release a sheet and something is wrong, they get blamed for not doing their research and putting out a shoddy product.

If they release a sheet and it happens to be fairly accurate and of the same subject that someone else has done, they get accused of stealing it!

W-T-F is up with that!?

Superscale has contacts all over this country. I am one of them. We send Norris photos all of the time. SS chooses their modern subjects based on its chances of being a good seller. A few months ago, I sent them walk arounds of VFC-12's CAG bird that will be released here soon. Guess what? I had no clue that Twobobs or SB Decals was doing aircraft from VFC-12!!!!!! Thankfully, none of the aircraft are the same.

If they were, and you knowing that I had no knowledge of your plans, would you still blame SS for 'burning' you?

VFC-111 - How many people are doing their aircraft!? EVERYONE!!! Who's burning who here?

Guys, there are only so many hi-vis/CAG aircraft to go around. It is a no brainer that if a squadron paints up one of their aircraft in a striking paint scheme that every decal company is going to jump on it. As I've said before, no one has 'exclusive' rights to a squadron or the markings they apply to their aircraft. Every decal manufacturer has their own stable of contributors........many, many, many times those contributors will send references of the same aircraft to each of their respective decal producers.

MAW and Twobobs each released a sheet that had damn near identical markings (F/A-18C from VMFA-122) and not a peep was made about one possibly stealing from the other.

Sadly, Superscale is consistently accused of such practice on this forum and it needs to stop. Unless you have absolute undefendable proof to the contrary, you have absolutely no right to make these accusations in a public forum.

Respectfully and without malice to the individuals above,

Dave

Dave

I have to agree to disagree on this. I have my reasons but will not air dirty laundry here.

Respectfully right back at ya!!

Mike

[dsmith]

Gentlemen,

I think everyone makes a valid point. But Dave is right. Some of us have our "to-do" lists that have been in our heads for awhile. For instance, I jotted down everything that I would "like to do," and that list went to about 80 - 100 projects. Like most of us, since this is not my full time job, I am sure someone will probably do some of those things before I get around to it - just the nature of things. In my case though, everything I do, I will be using for my own projects, so it is going to be done regardless of what other people do. I just figure, if I am going to make a mold anyway, maybe someone else would like a copy too (that is actually how the whole Royale Resin thing started anyway).

For the time being, if anyone is interested, I will be concentrating on wheels, some more drop tanks, and a couple of other misc. sets.

Just my two cents.

Happy Modelling,

-Doug :)

[PlasticWeapons]

I am all for this 100%. While I do at times offer too much to too many people and forget who was to get what and at what time (Ha!! Say that three times really fast!), I will share whatever information I can to help someone out, regardless of whether or not they're doing something I'm working on also.

I am fortunate in the fact that I have access to things that most of you don't. If I can share some of that information with you to make your products better for us, then dagnamit, I will.

Dave

Got any buddies overseas who can get cockpit photos from the JASDF? :)

:)

[Darren Roberts]

Hey Dave,

I must say that I particularly like Superscale and how they approach their business model. They do seem to get raked over the coals a bit much. I for one have purchased many, many SS sheets and will continue to do so. You are correct that there are only so many attractive paint schemes. I think where some of the accusations come from is the consistency with which they produce the same markings that others are producing. When multiple companies have had this happen, some may start to assume that there is something afoot. With that said, it could just be that it truly is coincidence that the same sheets are getting released. I for one am still not in the "they stole my artwork" camp, even though they beat us to a subject. When I said burned, I didn't mean to imply that SS stole our artwork. I just meant that they beat us to it and may have effected sales of the sheet. That's all. I think maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle.

[Harold]

I agree with nearly everything that was posted here, in one way or another.

I did a lot of scratch building years ago (10 or more) and made molds of them. Some were lost recently. However, I have found some and have been re-doing them.

Some of the cockpits and seats have been cast by others since then though. If they are better than mine, I will buy theirs. If not, I will use mine and then release it myself, even though there is one already out there. So, as far as beating someone to the punch, I did them all years ago, I just didn’t offer them for sale.

I feel that competition keeps us on our toes, and it gives the modeler a better product

Look at Trumpeter as an example of no real competition. They turn out a huge amount of products, all with issues. There is no one else that is a direct competitor. They don’t have to put a huge amount of time and effort to be as accurate as possible.

If there was a direct competitor, they would make darn sure that their product was better than the others.

That is why I feel that we should make the best product that is reasonably possible for our own reputation, if for no other reason.

I know that this is a hobby, and that we (the little guys) are never going to quit our day jobs.

Just two cents….

Cheers,

Harold

Edited July 26, 2007 by Harold

[Brian P: Fightertown Decals]

Well, I don't do resin - wish I could...

But as far as decals go, I've got some Tomcat stuff planned! And looking for more so references are welcomed and encouraged!

-brian

[VFA-103guy]

I have gas, and I don't care who releases it first..

Maybe it will come out in 1/70poo

[Zactoman]

I'm with Dave, Ryan and a few others on this issue. I wouldn't want my hands tied...

On the other hand, I don't want other manufacturers beating me to the punch or undercutting my prices with the same products.

I doubt I'll be releasing stuff that's already been released by others unless I feel there's market and a need for it. Either better quality or a better price.

I had planned to stay away from accessories and to concentrate on releasing full 1/32 kits, but Trumpeter seems to be releasing everything that ever flew. So much for my big plans...

I too had an accessory and detail parts 'to-do' list that included many items other manufacturers beat me to, including lITENING pods, Sniper pods, wheels and such......

Let's be honest, we all have day jobs and we're doing the resin simply because we saw a need and wanted to help out our fellow modelers.

That's how I stared out...Now Zactomodels is going to be my full time job. I'm still in it to help make my fellow modelers happy, but I'm also hoping to make some money at it...

Wish me luck! (and buy my stuff!)

Chris

[VFA-103guy]

How long have you been waiting to use that one!?

Dave

All freakin' day!

[Incaroad]

So with all this said, who's gonna do a set of F/A-18E/F/G BURNER CANS?!?!?!? And can ya hurry up!

I haven't a clue where to begin making them for a mold or from scratch, been lookin for some diagrams and dimensions for some time. I've even asked Dave and I haven't heard back from him. I'd love to have some help with this one.

So are these on someones to-do list?

Lively conversation, I'm likin it!!!

Cheers,

Larry

[jefropas]

I'm just glad all y'all do what you do for us, cause I know if I had to only buy resin from the "big guys" and their choices, I'd be in the poor house. Thanks, and I'm sure I speak for the entire board here, keep up the good work!

Jeff

[illithid00]

I really haven't been able to buy a lot of resin (technically, I've only bought one resin detail set), but I do appreciate that I can find accessories for good prices from all of you guys. Before I found ARC and all these companies that produce resin, I thought I'd be pretty much consigned to using spare parts or scratchbuilding everything I needed. I do plan to start using more resin, and I know I'll be looking to you guys before I go to the "big boys." Just my two cents.

[Two Mikes]

I will say that Darren has started a very thought provoking conversation here and I for one certainly appreciate everyones input and ideas. I love the fact that everyone is adult enough to not turn this into a flame war. I think it is a very healthy to exchange ideas and possibly form some good friendships and help among those who want to provide for the modeler.

Great job everyone!!