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Scooter Man

Differences between the F-8E and F-8J Crusader ???

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Can someone tell me what the main differences between these two versions of the Crusader are?

Thanks!

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This should be a sticky.

Basically, the F-8J has the double droop leading edge flaps and larger stabilizers as used on the F-8E(FN).

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Read the following post first, then this one

J versus E continued

The ailerons are also slightly different, E to J, since the J has BLC ducts.

E Aileron (actually this is an A, but they are the same.

A-Eaileron-sm.jpg

J Aileron (also E(FN) as here)

BLCducts.jpg

(The Hasegawa kit ailerons are E(FN)/J ailerons, but it is an easy fix, or the differences are slight enough to ignore)

Horizontal stabs: The UHTs (Unit Horizontal Tail, aka horizontal stabilisers) were larger on the J (and E(FN)/P) to retain the same pitch authority at the J's lower approach speed. Sorry, no reasonable comparative photographs, but the Hasegawa kit UHTs are correct for each type.

Tailhook: The E, like all earlier versions had a tail hook with a square shank, as in the Hasegawa kit. The J, and all other rebuild versions - the H, K, L and RF-8G, had a round shank hook

Early hook

DSCN1081sm.jpg

J (+H, K, L and RF-8G)

DSCN0247sm.jpg

ECM Tail blisters: The E initially had none but by 67 it had the small one. One J squadron, VF-162, deployed with that small ECM blister as their J's had only the ALQ-51 ECM suite. All subsequent J squadrons had the larger football (american syle!) shaped blister

One other difference of note between the two is that the J wing pylons were plumbed to carry external fuel tanks. They were only ever carried in the type evaluation by LTV and Pax River. NO fleet unit ever carried them, because if jettisoned they could strike the larger UHTs, a highly undesirable event.

J-tanks.jpg

The last difference is that the E was a hell of an airplane, the J was an overweight, underpowered piece of junk in comparison. Later it got the P420 engine with 1500 pounds additional thrust, which got some of its performance back, but it was never as good as the E (or the H, which also got the P420).

HTH,

Tom

Edited by Superheat

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Tim,

From a modelling standpoint the differences are as follows:

Nose landing gear: J gear has the arresting gear cable horns and the strut barrel is 2" longer than that of the E (the latter is hardly noticeable on the aircraft, much less on a model)

E nose gear

DSCN6787s.jpg

J nose gear (also applies to F-8H, F-8K, F-8L and RF-8G)

DSCN0455sm.jpg

Cockpit: The J has the Martin-Baker F7 rocket powered seat, characterised by the round sided parachute retaining pan and the hard pack 'chute. The E has the MB F5 seat with the flat sided parachute pan and the soft pack 'chute. On the lower right instrument panel, the E had a Turn and Bank Indicator (aka needle ball), the J had a standby gyro horizon.

F5 seat, F-8A thru E (not a great photo, sorry)

f5top.jpg

F7 seat, F-8H-L

f7top.jpg

Main Landing Gear: The main struts on the J were similar to the A-7 and lacked the packing seal flange at the mid length of the lower strut.

A-E MLG

HJmlgcorrection.jpg

J MLG (Also applies to F-8H and RF-8G after 1977, photo is an RF-8G)

DSCN0417.jpg

Wing: The J leading edge droop (aka flaps) was double-hinged, ie it bent twice as the wing went up, where the E and earlier versions were single hinged. Note that neither type droop was slotted.

Standard LE Flap

scuffplate1.jpg

I don't have a good photo of the J droop end on with the wing up, but here is an E(FN) wing down which shows the two hinge points.

DSCN6183.jpg

and a couple that show the articulation

DSCN0067.jpg

DSCN0070.jpg

continued in next post

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Thought there was also a differnce between the number of vents just behind the radome.

There are differences in the number and spacing of those vents between the E/J and the earlier models, particularly on the right side, but not between the E and the J.

Cheers,

Tom

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The last difference is that the E was a hell of an airplane, the J was an overweight, underpowered piece of junk in comparison. Later it got the P420 engine with 1500 pounds additional thrust, with got some of its performance back, but it was never as good as the E (or the H, wh;ich also gotthe P420).

Tom

Didn't someone once say "J" for Junk, "H" for Hotrod?

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Tom

Didn't someone once say "J" for Junk, "H" for Hotrod?

I know I've witnessed Tom himself saying it on one or two occasions here ;)

Mods, could we maybe get this thread pinned? I'm sure Tom grows weary of repeating the same stuff every few months or so, and this is a great reference! :)

Edited by Skull Leader

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Second the pin request. Very helpful. Could've used it back when I did my 72nd F-8 a while back.

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An excellent post from Tom, and I wouldn't mind seeing it pinned to make it easier to find whenever I get around to making a Crusader.

Jens

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This question has probably been posed (YAWN!!) multiple times..... but do the 1/48 scale Hasegawa kits address all of these differences between kits? I've been planning on buying an F-8,just havn't decided which one.Thanks for your patience and understanding.

Edited by Scot M

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They address the stuff like the LE flaps and the stabs, but I don't think they address the MLG struts. The nose strut actually has the J horns IIRC, and they need to be cut off for the -E.

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This question has probably been posed (YAWN!!) multiple times..... but do the 1/48 scale Hasegawa kits address all of these differences between kits? I've been planning on buying an F-8,just havn't decided which one.Thanks for your patience and understanding.

Hi Scot,

Dave's reply is correct as far as it goes, but here is some more detail. Like many kits, none of the various boxings of the Hasegawa F-8 kit is exactly what it says it is, but the most accurate out of the box kit is the French Crusader, since it is obvious that that is what they used as their airframe reference, specifically the F-8P. The proof of this is that on the right side of the nose under the windscreen is a small circular panel that is peculiar to the P (for prolonge) version. Also the ailerons have the BLC ducting specific to the E(FN)/P and J.

Before addressing individual kit types, the following general items for more accuracy apply to ALL versions: first, there is a hump on the upper wing at the wingfold which should not be there (the underside is correct);

upprwngfld.jpg

Second, the bleed air exhaust on the right side is not correctly rendered, it is not a flat plank applied to the side, but curves down to meet the fuselage and the panel is applied over the fuselage, not butt-joined, so a recessed panel line is utterly inappropriate.

DSCN0003.jpg

Third, the radar screen is incorrectly angled for a production F-8. At least one cockpit had the sreen angled as in the kit, but I suspect it was a mock-up, or possibly the prototype, 143710 (later converted to the sole two seater). Production aircraft had a conventionally mounted screen, ie parallel to the instrument panel.

File0017.jpg

Fourth, the panels on either side of the nose with the cooling vents do not stand proud of the fuselage as in the kit. Probably not worth the trouble to correct, but it bugs me. Why did they do that?

Fifth, the AB nozzle should not stick out past the lip of the tailcone as it does in the kit. If using the kit parts, it is a quick fix accomplished by some judicious trimming, but I highly recommend Aires' aftermarket version, it is very good.

Sixth, the catapault keel pi and its recess between the speed brakes is missing. Not a big deal, but an easy fix and it IS a carrier aircraft.

SBCatKeelPin.jpg

On to specifics: to get an "accurate" E out of the E kit do the generals above as/if desired plus the following: cut off the nose gear cable deflector horns, fill in the aforementioned circular hole on the right nose, and get rid of the BLC ducts on the ailerons, but leave a bit of a notch in the leading edge as these are also the hinge points (see earlier photos). The kit seat is not great but is a reasonable start toward an accurate F5 seat, correct for the E. The early E's did not have the "Bullpup" fairing on the upper wing/fuselage and also did not have any ECM antenna on the tail

To get an accurate J out of the J kit do the generals above as/if desired plus the following: fill in the circular panel on the right side of the nose; the nose gear is correct, leave it alone, but trim off the flange on the main gear struts (see earlier photo); cut out the straight center section of the rectangular hook shank and replace it with round stock and fair it into the mount and hook point (see earlier photos); replace the seat with an F7 (Aires', though not perfect, is the best available, but note that the face curtain handle is incorrect, there should be no space between the two loops). The J, as did most rebuilds, had two fairing on the lower fuselage between the main gear doors. (Wolfpack Designs' F-8 Exterior set has them) All J squiadrons had the larger ECM antenna on the tail, except VF-162 - the first squadron to deploy with the J - had the smaller one. If starting with the "Last of the Gunfighters" be sure you use the double droop and the larger horizontal stabs.

To get an accurate early F-8E(FN): the generals as/if, plus the following: fill in the circular panel on the right side of the nose, remove the cable deflector horns on the nose gear, remove the ECM fairing from the tail.

For the F-8P, the generals plus: Replace the seat with an F7, remove the cable deflector horns and modify the instrument panel to include the SHERLOC display left of the radar screen.

detail19.jpg

That's all I can come up with at the moment, if I think of anything else, I'll add it. Hope it helps.

Tom

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J versus E continued

Tom,

Excellent - a great, informative piece you authored there!! That definitely goes into the reference file.

Do you have a special association with the Crusader, or are you just typically "thorough"?

In that regard, what other airplanes can you present likewise (insert subliminal "A-7" here)

Thanks very much.

Gene K

Edited by Gene K

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Tom,Thank you very much for such a thorough and informative article.I definately use this thread when I begin building my Crusader... Thanks again!

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Tom,

Excellent - a great, informative piece you authored there!! That definitely goes into the reference file.

Do you have a special association with the Crusader, or are you just typically "thorough"?

In that regard, what other airplanes can you present likewise (insert subliminal "A-7" here)

Thanks very much.

Gene K

Hi Gene,

Sorry, I missed this somehow. I flew the Crusader and was around it for 5 years, so I know it pretty well. We had A-7's on my first cruise, so I was around them and know the airplane well enough to know an A/B from a C/E on sight, and a good kit from a bad one (Fujimi is still far and away the best kit in 1/72nd, I wouldn't even give Hobby Boss second spot, ESCI/Italeri gets that in my book) but nowhere near as well as I know the Crusader. I do, though, have lots of detail photos of Vought's B restoration and the Tillamook Museum's E, and a few of the P'cola E as well. If you need anything I might have, let me know.

...Break, break

Tom,Thank you very much for such a thorough and informative article.I definately use this thread when I begin building my Crusader... Thanks again!

Scot,

Glad you find it useful, hope it helps you produce your best ever model!

Cheers all,

TOm

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Fujimi is still far and away the best kit in 1/72nd, I wouldn't even give Hobby Boss second spot, ESCI/Italeri gets that in my book

I'm trying really hard to like the Hobby Boss kit, and it does outshine both the Fujimi and ESCI kits in many respects....but... http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index....howtopic=126838 .

As for the Crusader, what's your take on the Academy kit?

Gene K

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Tom,

Like the others, I appreciate all your insights and help towards doing up a good F-8.

It was mentioned that there were concerns about the F-8 using drop tanks and possibly hitting the horizontal stabs ... do you know if there were the same concerns with the A-7's as they seemed to carry them often?

regards,

Gary F

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A MOST informative thread! :thumbsup:

Maybe this thread could be formed into an article for the main page. Don't know where this would fit, though. The walk-arounds? The tools'n'tips section?

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I flew the Crusader and was around it for 5 years, so I know it pretty well. ....

...but nowhere near as well as I know the Crusader.

Say, Tom, ever thought about writing a book about your experiences as well as a reference book about the 'Sader? I mean, with your extensive knowledge of the aircraft & your first-hand experience of flying that legend, I'm sure it'd be a heck of a book. Sort of like that French Crusader pilot's work: "Le Crusader français en action" by Jean-Marie Gall.

Though I don't have the book, I have heard that it is a 'bible' of sorts for French 'Saders. You could write it's American equivalent. The best part? You're a modeler, so you can write from a modeler's + Aviator's perspective. Best of both worlds :doh:

I feel there are not many detailed books about cold-war warriors like the 'Sader. F-15s/16s/14s have been done to death to the extend that even a layman knows where all the various wirings & cables are supposed to go in a Tomcat or an Eagle.

Your Crusader book will definitely be a godsend to many. You've already seen how appreciated & valued your posts in ARC are, especially with your detailed photos. Think of how easily your book will fly off the shelves if you choose to write it. So how about it? I know I'd definitely get a copy.

:thumbsup:

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