MikeC Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 An interesting point for debate arises about the slats on the early marks of Sabre. Accepted modelling wisdom is that as the slats were not deployable "at will", they remained open on the ground, and therefore any model of a slat-winged F-86 must depict them open. But is that invariably the case? For example, would they stay closed if a crew chief, or a pilot (during walk-round checks perhaps) closed them by hand? Reason I ask is that I found a photo purporting to be F-86As, which clearly shows them closed. If this is the case it would make building an A model in 1:48 without a conversion set, or butchering a Revell Dog, so much easier. http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/...ge.htm?id=12631 What do you think? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Edgar Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Frank Brown (Echelon) worked on Sabres, when in Germany, with the RAF. He said that the slats were pushed back by air pressure, and deployed, automatically, when airspeed fell below a certain range. Normally, they remained out, after landing, but it was common to see them pushed back into place, by a bored (or mischievous?) erk. He said that there was a catch, which held them closed, but it wasn't a problem, since they deployed, again, as soon as the engine started. That's RAF/Canadair Sabres, of course, but I don't see how the USAF a/c would have been any different. Edgar Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeC Posted August 21, 2007 Author Share Posted August 21, 2007 Edgar, Thank you, you've just made a conversion project I'm planning much easier. As the RAF/Canadair Sabres were essentially the same aircraft it makes sense that they might be shut on the ground. Perhaps I'll include a figure caught having just "shut" the second one. Thanks again, and see you at Telford I hope. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
noOne Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Slats on the F-86 were one of the important design devlopment features that gave it the flight capabilities it would become known for. Unfortunately being a relatively new device, some bugs had to be worked out. All versions were free floating, and moved in relation to the air pressure on them. The very early A's had a 'slat lock' within the cockpit that the pilot could use to keep them in the closed position, but this was removed entirely from the 160th a/c on. If I recall correctly, the A's also had each of the 4[?]panels for each wing moving individually, whereas the subsequent versions had the slat as a one piece unit for each wing. The production versions that followed usually used a slat wing, but some versions were designed as a 'hard' wing -and some of these were later converted to slat [such as done in the field during the Korean War]. The slat could get hung up on one side during flight and/or combat, resulting in the a/c become a handful to control [could result in a permanent roll or spin]. If encountered and for some reason couldn't be repaired[no parts, major damage, time factor, etc] before the next flight, the ground crew could mechanically wire both wings in the closed position, till proper repairs could be made. [Overall the performance of the slat wing bettered the hard wing.] One of the important ground crew and Pilot primary pre-flt checks was to push the slat back to make sure it rolled back smoothly and immediately extended when your hand let go -otherwise that bird didn't fly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mark M. Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Me 262s in WW2 had the same setup. The pilots on pre-flight would do the same. However, on these and on early 109s, they would push them shut on the ground to keep sand and the elements from getting into/underneath the slats. Also, I thought the hard-winged F-86 was far superior in manuverability to the slat-winged, because it could put much more strain (read, pull harder manuvers) without fear of jamming the slats. I could be wrong, and I'm not an expert on the matter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kenlilly106 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 I've seen photographs of slat-winged F-86's, and A-4's and F-100's clearly showing a "hard-winged" aircraft, mainly posed shots with the pilot or beauty shots, typically the slats were pushed back in for the picture. So yes, it is entirely possible to have a parked slat-winged F-86 with the slats retracted. Makes the modeling work much easier that way Ken Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sabre Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 So now for the stupid question of the week:.....does the Kinetics 32nd F-86 have slatted wings or not? Inquiring minds REALLY want to know... "First With Guns", Jim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Edgar Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 No, it doesn't; it has the "hard," 6-3, standard-span wing. I was always told that the slats were deleted because, in tight turns, it was known for one slat, only, to deploy, causing mayhem. The landing speed was higher, but they had to live with that. Edgar Quote Link to post Share on other sites
noOne Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Also, I thought the hard-winged F-86 was far superior in manuverability to the slat-winged, because it could put much more strain (read, pull harder manuvers) without fear of jamming the slats. I could be wrong, and I'm not an expert on the matter. The Hard wing 86 had a slightly fast speed and maximum height, but also had higher take-off, stall and landing speeds. Primarily the slat wing could turn better which is what gave it a better chance against the smaller nimbler Mig-15. The slat could get you into trouble if they didn't move in unison, which could be a reality, say if battle damaged. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
smithery Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 So now for the stupid question of the week:.....does the Kinetics 32nd F-86 have slatted wings or not?Inquiring minds REALLY want to know...;) "First With Guns", Jim :blink: :o And you call yourself "Sabre"? Shame on you. You shall for evermore be called Cessna, and a request has been sent to SBARC to change your username too. :D Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sabre Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Kevin...Kevin...Kevin.... The "Sabre" moniker comes from my old call sign of my gunship helo from the 'Nam days...."Sabre 6".....:blink: Was only luke warm to the big Sabre until Harold started working on some resin for it......anything he does is first class all the way! "First With Guns", Cessn....er, Jim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Harold Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Kevin...Kevin...Kevin....The "Sabre" moniker comes from my old call sign of my gunship helo from the 'Nam days...."Sabre 6"..... Was only luke warm to the big Sabre until Harold started working on some resin for it......anything he does is first class all the way! "First With Guns", Cessn....er, Jim With the "right stuff" the Kinetic Sabre should be impressive. As soon as I get the seat cast properly, I will have someone build the 'pit up and see how it looks. Any takers? Cheers, Harold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mcaulk Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 [Harold, Would be happy to paint, detail and photo the cockpt. Have the Black Box / Avionix version in a partically finished Hasegawa project. Did it in Korean war era all black. Regards, Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Harold Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 (edited) Very, very nice!! How about I send you a seat, a new casting (and what ever else is ready) without the belts and hoses. I will be doing that one soon. But for now, I would like to see how it looks painted. I think you could make anything look good!!' I have your address. Edited November 2, 2007 by Harold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mcaulk Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 Very, very nice!!How about I send you a seat, a new casting (and what ever else is ready) without the belts and hoses. I will be doing that one soon. But for now, I would like to see how it looks painted. I think you could make anything look good!!' I have your address. Thanks for the kind words... send em and I'll do my best to crank it out. Regards, Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Harold Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 Thanks for the kind words... send em and I'll do my best to crank it out.Regards, Mike The seat will not fit the Hasegawa pit you have. It is too wide. If you plan on doing the Kinetic Sabre, it will all fit. I am working on the belted seat today. I will send the majority of the finished parts today as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Harold Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 I have sent out a "short set" to be checked out by mcaulk. It can be used to update the Kinetic 'pit by using the kit's side consoles. We shall see...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeC Posted November 4, 2007 Author Share Posted November 4, 2007 Wow, I hadn't realised that this topic had revived. Thanks for all the responses chaps, looking forward to starting on a Sabre, but determined to clear the logjam of part-built models on the workbench before I do. Pardon? Oh, AmTech Hs 123, AMT A-20J being done as an F-3A, Fw 190A, all in 1:48, a Jeep in 1:35, and to keep this at least partly on topic (Jet Modelling) an old Airfix 1:72 MiG 21 "nostalgia" build. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Harold Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 Wow, I hadn't realised that this topic had revived. Thanks for all the responses chaps, looking forward to starting on a Sabre, but determined to clear the logjam of part-built models on the workbench before I do.Pardon? Oh, AmTech Hs 123, AMT A-20J being done as an F-3A, Fw 190A, all in 1:48, a Jeep in 1:35, and to keep this at least partly on topic (Jet Modelling) an old Airfix 1:72 MiG 21 "nostalgia" build. When will you have all of them finished???? If I waited to finish all of my part builds before starting anything new, I won't have to buy a new kit for years. (if ever) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeC Posted November 4, 2007 Author Share Posted November 4, 2007 Hs 123 is ready for primer (then fill/sand/prime/fill etc); the F-3's about to have the Neutral Grey undersides painted; the Fw is stalled since the masking tape lifted off the paint (my fault, used an old primer that didn't work); the Jeep will be continued when I feel like it; and the MiG is very nearly done, in fact may even finish it tomorrow - too much to do for today. However, next week is mainly preparation for SMW Telford, and who knows what I may decide to start in the meantime - maybe even a Sabre? :D Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Harold Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 If you start the Sabre, post the progress. I would like to see one in the process of being built. I have seen the ones on E-bay and the one used by LuckyModel. Yuck!! I want to see a REAL modeler at work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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