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SBARC

Copyrights on images

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For all you guys who think it is OK to re-post pics, manipulate Fair Use clauses, or generally complain about copyrights, all you're doing is making it very unappealing for those of us who do take pics to share them. It is no easy feat to photograph military aircraft aside from airshows, especially air-air images, and we certainly don't have to share what we are able to shoot with people who aren't going to appreciate copyrights.

I have seen my pics all over the internet without my consent. I have even seen some where my name was creatively cropped out of the image altogether and reposted on sites such as f-16.net. The result? A severe reduction in on-line images that I put out. There are a lot of fantastically talented photographers around here, and their absence and lack of photo-sharing over the past few years should be a wake-up call.

For me, being a photographer is not my primary source of income, so I don't have much of an issue (besides being irritated at the lack of respect many people show towards photos on the internet) when my pics are reposted without my permission. However, for some, it is their livelihood. Too many people get caught up in trying to get 'something for nothing,' and fail to realize that when all the imagery is cut off, they're only hurting themselves.

Jake

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Jake that's the thing, had I been aware I would not have reposted the pictures in the first place because I am NOT one of those 'something for nothing' people, a testament of which is my car restoration project that is entirely managed and paid for by myself, hell I even went so far as to take on a majority of the work without any prior experience.

Don't get me wrong I am not complaining about the copyright itself because it is there for a reason, I fully respect that and hear what you are saying, I just find it very disappointing that communication was in my case a one-way street.

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Jake...

There is a very good way for professional photographers to prevent that from happening: Don't put their stuff on a free source without limiting access.

Roo

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Jake...

There is a very good way for professional photographers to prevent that from happening: Don't put their stuff on a free source without limiting access.

Roo

Well, no kidding. And that is what is happening, and has been for a while. Does that hurt us, the photographers? or does it hurt those looking for references?

Read some of the responses on Page 1 by the photographers. You're new here, so it's possible you may not realize who the photographers are. David F. Brown. Ever hear of him? He no longer posts images here. Fuji Ramos. Is that name familiar? Very talented photographer who also no longer posts here. Does it hurt them by not posting here? Nope. They were doing it because they're nice guys. Nothing more, and they have to deal with people who think it's perfectly OK to disregard their copyright. Nevermind the copyright laws, it is just plain disrespectful, and you guys are the victims of it when they no longer post their awesome and enormous photo gallery here for all of us to enjoy.

Jake

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Dakota,

Jake's comments seemed well thought out and well stated to me. Nothing about getting something for free.

My 2 cents.

John

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Yea... Been there, too.

It is kinda funny to see one of my pictures with the copyright watermark on a russian speaking forum. And the guy who posted it there is also a member of ARC. He is even using the same name. So I am no longer posting high res pictures on forums anymore. 800 pixels wide seems large enough, anyway.

Edited by Lancer512

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Actually, you are missing the point that Jake pretty much posts a lot of photos for reference even though he also authors excellent reference books, some of the best on the market, I dare even say, The Best ... Jake very much tries to help out whenever he can ...

Gregg

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Lancer512 did exactly as he should have done if he expects to collect copyright fees...and that is what 'copyright' is all about, collecting fees for works. Indeed, he shouldn't put anything up online unless he has the means to suppress and constrain access online. The thing is, all too often, it's the publishers who collect the fees and make the money, while they usually pay a pittance to the original artist, claiming that the works wouldn't reach any market without them. I personally think that the entirety of copyright, trademark and patent laws are perverse to the extreme and the 'open source' acquisition online is a step in the right direction.

This is BS. You are twisting your ideas of copyright law so that you can feel better about stealing from someone else. The US Copyright Law says that as soon as you take picture, it's covered by that law and you own that photo. It is NOT to be used without your consent, nor altered in any way. We pay for our gear to shoot the photos. If I post something hear, like Jake, Dave Brown or Ken, I don't expect any money for it. It's my gift to ARC for their reference use only. Most people know that they cannot repost it without my consent. If my name is on it, it's hands off. Even on the internet. If I pull your bank account numbers off the net, is it then ok to help myself to your money?

From your recent joined status, and trolling comments, you are probably one of the people who have been stealing from the work of others and hiding through a false name.

Mods, this guy needs to be banned and his IP blocked.

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Am I missing something, here?

:rofl: Nope. Not at all. It sounds like you've got it all figured out!! Well done!

:rofl:

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Jake that's the thing, had I been aware I would not have reposted the pictures in the first place because I am NOT one of those 'something for nothing' people, a testament of which is my car restoration project that is entirely managed and paid for by myself, hell I even went so far as to take on a majority of the work without any prior experience.

Don't get me wrong I am not complaining about the copyright itself because it is there for a reason, I fully respect that and hear what you are saying, I just find it very disappointing that communication was in my case a one-way street.

I'm not familiar with your situation, and I do understand that there is a LOT of confusion regarding copyright laws (as evidenced by our new friend Dakota Roo, here). I do believe many people innocently simply don't think it's hurting anyone to repost images. Because I have a another job besides photography, it isn't that big a deal to me. However, I stand shoulder to shoulder with those photographers who depend on their images for their livelihood, and vigorously defend copyright laws. It sounds like you just made a mistake, and removing the image is the best you can do. I wouldn't sweat it.

So I am no longer posting high res pictures on forums anymore. 800 pixels wide seems large enough, anyway.

Good Lord, no. There's no reason to be posting hi-res images on-line. Way too many dishonest people out there, unfortunately.

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Dakota Roo....for a new guy you seem keen to pick fights and insult other members.....please read the "Rules of the Road"regarding conduct on his forum.

The ARC forums are peaceful for a reason. Problem members are swiftly banned.

And if you are unsure who I am....I am the one that bans members.

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And if you are unsure who I am....I am the one that bans members.

rofl.gifban.gif

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I do believe many people innocently simply don't think it's hurting anyone to repost images.

because their right. (most applicable to a forum like ARC in bold)

Sect. 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: fair use

"...the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include--

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work."

furthermore, the placing of a copyright in a public domain represents the "abandonment" or "forfeiture" of a valuable property right, as determined by King v. Mister Maestro, Inc., 224 F.Supp. 101 (S.D.N.Y. 1963)

so if a person takes a photo you took, and reposts it on another site going "see, you can see the chaff flare buckets in this angle" legally, they are well in the clear on two fronts.

I think what it comes down to at the end of the day isn't the legality or cost, its recognition. People want to be recognised for their work.

its true people will remove watermarks of photos, but at the end of the day that's the risk you take for putting it out there, there is no "cyber police" to enforce such things - the quoted law above only applies to US citizens & within US jurisdictions

at some point I feel you just gotta suck it up and deal with it - nobody forces us to put stuff online, and we all know the potential effects once its in the domain, so really to me its a personal responsibility issue.

Regards

Edited by Raymond

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at some point I feel you just gotta suck it up and deal with it - nobody forces us to put stuff online, and we all know the potential effects once its in the domain, so really to me its a personal responsibility issue.

Regards

Your post makes it abundantly clear for me. There's no benefit to continue to post my images on forums as long as there are people out there who will argue with me about their "right" to abuse and/or disrespect my copyright.

For the life of me, I just can't understand how you guys will argue with the photographers and watch, one by one, as we stop sharing our pictures with you. Can you really not see the fallacy in doing that?

How many of you guys get to fly on combat missions and take pics of US and coalition aircraft during those missions?? Jeff Stoermer does it nearly every day, and, in the past, has very graciously posted his pics for you guys to use as references. How often do you see his pics now?

How many of you guys have personally photographed nearly every F-14 ever built? Dave Brown has. Again, he's been extremely generous in posting much of his collection on line, in addition to his books he's authored.

Fuji Ramos has flown multiple air-air missions with the Navy, offering a rare glimpse into Naval aviation and awesome air-air pics of S-3s, F-5s, and F-14s, among others. How many of you guys clamoring about copyrights can say that? When is the last time you've seen any of his pics on-line?

I've flown the F-16, F-15, F-4E, MC/C-130, MH-60, C-2, KC-10, & KC-135 on photoshoots with USAF, USN, and Canadian Armed Forces on combat missions and exercises, and have been very willing to share those pics in the past.

Now, tell me why we should share those pics here? I don't make any money for sharing them here, despite the enormous travel costs incurred in getting myself halfway across the globe to a photoshoot. If all we're going to get is people bleating about their "right" to disrespect our copyrights, it seems to me that the best way we can stop that is to simply stop sharing.

Jake Melampy

Edited by jmel

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If photographers take there toys and go home; its their choice. However the economics of media have changed; it used to be supply constrained, whereas now it is demand driven. If a producer leaves the arena others will gladly take their place. new ones come up, old ones drop off, its incredibly healthy for the system.

people love to comment, critique, inform or research subjects sourcing a variety of materials from 3rd party sources (ARC is a brilliant example) as is their protected right.

if one was to advocate limiting the means of people to share information already inserted into the public arena by producers it would represent the worst of repressive and dictatorial behaviours.

any legal professional will advise that there no legal basis for a copyright infringement claim on materials already surrendered to a public domain that have been disseminated in the interest of discussion and critique. whether it is rude or polite is an entirely different discussion.

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Now, tell me why we should share those pics here? I don't make any money for sharing them here, despite the enormous travel costs incurred in getting myself halfway across the globe to a photoshoot. If all we're going to get is people bleating about their "right" to disrespect our copyrights, it seems to me that the best way we can stop that is to simply stop sharing.

simply, you don't have to share them if you don't want to. If you feel pressured to share things for free out in the open by members, you have every right to decline.

If someone leaks pics you send to them privately; yea that's betrayal of confidentiality.

but if you post them on, say, ARC and if I can come on as a non-member of the wider public and access the image, it has been put into the public domain by you, the rights holder; I can copy, share, modify it as much as I want as long as I don't try to pass the image as my own (different to giving credit) or try to sell it for money.

if this is disturbing to you, then I agree: you should stop sharing your photos :)

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simply, you don't have to share them if you don't want to. If you feel pressured to share things for free out in the open by members, you have every right to decline.

If someone leaks pics you send to them privately; yea that's betrayal of confidentiality.

but if you post them on, say, ARC and if I can come on as a non-member of the wider public and access the image, it has been put into the public domain by you, the rights holder; I can copy, share, modify it as much as I want as long as I don't try to pass the image as my own (different to giving credit) or try to sell it for money.

if this is disturbing to you, then I agree: you should stop sharing your photos :)

Well, you've got your wish from me. I've pulled my photos from ARC. Go steal from someone else.

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:jaw-dropping:

Wow. At this point, there's nothing left to do but shrug my shoulders and walk away.

And not post images here anymore.

sheesh.

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Well, you've got your wish from me. I've pulled my photos from ARC. Go steal from someone else.

Nah, no big loss, Jeff. Evidently there are numerous other combat aircrew that frequent these forums who will "gladly take your place." Maybe he'll be more willing to allow his copyrights to be abused than you. Besides, all you do is take your camera on combat missions and shoot aircraft air-air. Really, now. How hard could it possibly be to replace you??

:rofl:

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Jake, Jeff, Dave, et al ...

It's a shame it comes to that but I completely understand your position ... :salute:

-Gregg

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Jake, I'm with you. No more postings from me either. I'm sure there are other photographers on here with archives numbering in the tens of thousands of images dating back to World War I. Sorry guys, if you want some references, send me an Email and I'll quote you my price.

Cheers,

David F. Brown

Edited by Sig Saur & Son

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Well, no kidding. And that is what is happening, and has been for a while. Does that hurt us, the photographers? or does it hurt those looking for references?

Read some of the responses on Page 1 by the photographers. You're new here, so it's possible you may not realize who the photographers are. David F. Brown. Ever hear of him? He no longer posts images here. Fuji Ramos. Is that name familiar? Very talented photographer who also no longer posts here. Does it hurt them by not posting here? Nope. They were doing it because they're nice guys. Nothing more, and they have to deal with people who think it's perfectly OK to disregard their copyright. Nevermind the copyright laws, it is just plain disrespectful, and you guys are the victims of it when they no longer post their awesome and enormous photo gallery here for all of us to enjoy.

Jake

Jake summed it up pretty well right here.

:thumbsup:

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I did try to remove the images and wanted to work WITH everyone NOT AGAINST them but I guess being upfront with the photographer about removal problems (was having password issues) made him go agressive and have me banned from the Tomcat Sunset forums with everyone becoming complete mutes so yes I am sweating the issue. It left me without a valuable source of reference for Tomcat models. You can count on it that I will never be honest OR upfront with anyone anymore because of the "gratitude" one gets, I'm not being a crybaby here but there are 2 sides to a story and feel that mine needs to be shared because people did not want to hear it.

Hey, if I really wanted to use the password issues as an excuse indicating that I was not going to delete the pictures "maybe" I would indeed leave it be and not be typing these words here :dontknow:

The post in question was made in order to correct a grave error about the remaining number of Tomcats still at AMARG on a Dutch modelbuilding forum by the way.

I'm not familiar with your situation, and I do understand that there is a LOT of confusion regarding copyright laws (as evidenced by our new friend Dakota Roo, here). I do believe many people innocently simply don't think it's hurting anyone to repost images. Because I have a another job besides photography, it isn't that big a deal to me. However, I stand shoulder to shoulder with those photographers who depend on their images for their livelihood, and vigorously defend copyright laws. It sounds like you just made a mistake, and removing the image is the best you can do. I wouldn't sweat it.

Edited by InjectTheVenom

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