lgl007 Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Hi guys, Anyone have any nice close up photos or drawn pictures of the HUD area of the F-4? Can't seem to find any. I'd really like to see what's going on in the cockpit around the HUD... Thanks. -Greg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Skull Leader Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 The vast majority of F-4s never had HUDs... they had GUNSIGHTS Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kstater94 Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 The vast majority of F-4s never had HUDs... they had GUNSIGHTS Good boy! :D Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lgl007 Posted October 29, 2007 Author Share Posted October 29, 2007 Ok... then does anyone have pics of the 'gunsite' area on an F-4? BTW I'm doing a late F-4G that flew missions in Iraq... Thanks. -Greg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Woodman Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 (edited) The vast majority of F-4s never had 'gunsites'... they had GUNSIGHTS kidding... check here. Desert Storm/late F-4G cockpit pics Edited October 29, 2007 by Woodman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lgl007 Posted October 29, 2007 Author Share Posted October 29, 2007 Thanks for the correction... but the link and any others I've been able to find only show the parts facing the pilot... I need to see what's in front of that (or behind it - depending on your perspective)... between the cockpit front glass and the pilot control panel on which the 'gunsight' sits... I know it's quite tight up front there (certainly looks it)... -Greg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lgl007 Posted October 29, 2007 Author Share Posted October 29, 2007 Ok, I just had to look up the definition as my impression was that even though it 'was'/'may' have been called a 'gunsight' it was still a Heads Up Display: "Definition of: heads-up display A display technology that superimposes images onto the inside of the windshield to enable drivers to view the information while keeping their eyes on the road. Heads-up displays (HUDs) are also used in goggles and helmets (see head mounted display). Initially used in military aircraft to display avionics and instrument readings as well as gunsights in front of the pilot, heads-up displays migrated to commercial aircraft and later to automobiles. Passenger car systems display vehicle speed and objects detected in a collision avoidance system, such as a deer crossing the road up ahead." So by definition such a gunsight can be considered a heads-up display given the nature of the technology... yes? Now I'm all confused ;-P -Greg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
David Walker Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 (edited) Unless I'm mistaken, I've always thought of HUDs as devises that provide both navigational and weapons information directly in front of the pilot. I don't believe the F-4 gunsight did that. It only provided weapon information. (the pilot still had to look down in the cockpit for flying information) So that would be like calling the gunsight in a P-51D a HUD, which I don't believe is correct from a terminology standpoint. Edited October 30, 2007 by David Walker Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Skull Leader Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 The term may *technically* fit the bill, and to be honest, I'm not sure when the term "HUD" became common nomenclature (with the A-7 maybe?) but I always classified a HUD as a device that displays more than just a targeting reticle... I guess you're safe either way? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jcunny Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 (edited) Thanks for the correction... but the link and any others I've been able to find only show the parts facing the pilot... I need to see what's in front of that (or behind it - depending on your perspective)... between the cockpit front glass and the pilot control panel on which the 'gunsight' sits... I know it's quite tight up front there (certainly looks it)...-Greg Greg, Alrighty then. I have the BB set. I can take a pic of the coaming and should get you what they think you need to do. You will be kinda pressed to get a pic of such a small area. It is by the way, a gunsight. You can call it what you will. Jarrod Cunningham Austin, Texas Edited October 31, 2007 by jcunny Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 somewhere there exist a picture of an E model phantom with the windscreen removed after a bird strike. i will try to locate it again. i knew i should have downloaded it when i found it, because it was the perfect picture of that area....in front of the dumaflitchy Heads up Gunsight thingamabob. i'll post it if i can find it again. Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Grey Ghost 531 Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Thanks for the correction... but the link and any others I've been able to find only show the parts facing the pilot... I need to see what's in front of that (or behind it - depending on your perspective)... between the cockpit front glass and the pilot control panel on which the 'gunsight' sits... I know it's quite tight up front there (certainly looks it)...-Greg I don't know about Gs but B, C, D and N it would be the top of the pilot's radar scope all the way to where the windscreen meets the barrel of the nose. The scope was about 2 1/2 feet long from the face of it where the CRT was to the back of it where the connectors were. The gunsite was a part of it on the top at the end where the CRT was. On either side of the pilot scope there were fiberglass glare shields. All of it was semi gloss black. It wasn't all level from side to side, the top of the pilot scope was raised a little above the glare shields and the whole assembly was curved from edge to edge with the center of the pilot scope being the highest. It more or less followed the curve of the fuselage in front of the windscreen. Let me tell you, changing out the aircraft side connectors on the pilot scope was no treat. Maintenance Control wouldn't have them take the windscreen off for the job so you were working with your fingertips crammed up in the very front where the glass comes right down to the airframe, undoing a bunch of 5/16 inch nyloc nuts and extracting 22 gauge pins by feel. You can't see what you're doing because your head won't fit in the space so you're kind of looking back over your shoulder with your arms straight out as you squat in the front cockpit. Add southern California August sunshine and the perfume of JP4 and jet exhaust and you're having a good time! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rickmb Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 The G gunsight was slightly different from the D/E/F in that it also provided targeting information for SAM threats. From a modeler's perspective all of the ASG-26 series looked the same. Most of the "action" was directly around the gunsight. It was attached to the front of the front radar scope. There was a glare shield over each side making the area in front of the gunsight rather uninteresting. I may have a pic or two of gunsight area from my days of working on Es and Gs. Rick Ok, I just had to look up the definition as my impression was that even though it 'was'/'may' have been called a 'gunsight' it was still a Heads Up Display:"Definition of: heads-up display A display technology that superimposes images onto the inside of the windshield to enable drivers to view the information while keeping their eyes on the road. Heads-up displays (HUDs) are also used in goggles and helmets (see head mounted display). Initially used in military aircraft to display avionics and instrument readings as well as gunsights in front of the pilot, heads-up displays migrated to commercial aircraft and later to automobiles. Passenger car systems display vehicle speed and objects detected in a collision avoidance system, such as a deer crossing the road up ahead." So by definition such a gunsight can be considered a heads-up display given the nature of the technology... yes? Now I'm all confused ;-P -Greg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
StevenJ Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 The vast majority of F-4s never had HUDs... they had GUNSIGHTS :wub: Heh heh. Most Phantoms didn't even had a gun. Phantoms had what is called a combiner glass. For most Phantoms this just gave you a fixed reticle which would be useless in a gun fight. Mostly for missile, rocket and bomb drops. Mil setting determines the elevation (lead) on the combiner glass but it was fixed and didn't move to adjust for G and such. At least for Phantoms prior to the 80's. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
StevenJ Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Ok, I just had to look up the definition as my impression was that even though it 'was'/'may' have been called a 'gunsight' it was still a Heads Up Display:"Definition of: heads-up display A display technology that superimposes images onto the inside of the windshield to enable drivers to view the information while keeping their eyes on the road. Heads-up displays (HUDs) are also used in goggles and helmets (see head mounted display). Initially used in military aircraft to display avionics and instrument readings as well as gunsights in front of the pilot, heads-up displays migrated to commercial aircraft and later to automobiles. Passenger car systems display vehicle speed and objects detected in a collision avoidance system, such as a deer crossing the road up ahead." So by definition such a gunsight can be considered a heads-up display given the nature of the technology... yes? Now I'm all confused ;-P -Greg I wouldn't fault you for calling it a HUD. But really, all the original did was superimpose a fixed reticle on a piece of glass. No other information such as speed, altitude or anything. Basically, no different than what a P-51 provided...though I would guess that the P-51's reticle actually moved to compensate for G and lateral movement. Do people call the gunsight in a P-51 a HUD? I don't know. In the Phantom, you set your mil to a certain setting based on what parameter you want to release your weapon (in air-ground) say you think you'll drop at 6,000', at 450-knots and with a 60-degree dive and you look it up in your table. If you are off on any of those parameters, your setting will be off and you have to perform some quick Kentucky windage to make it work. This is all at least true for USN models and I have no clue for all the upgrades the USAF did with their E's and G's. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SCOUT712 Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Actually the F-4 has a HUD. But it's not the combining glass most guys refer to. The -1 states the HUD as 4 lingts which are adjacent to the combining glass. It's on the left side of the radar scope on the F-4G pics in the walkaround section. In the F-4E/F the upper one reads RADAR, the next one HEAT, then GUN and the lower one says ARM. That's all for the Heads Up Display in the Rhino. SCOUT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Skull Leader Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 Heh heh. Most Phantoms didn't even had a gun. Phantoms had what is called a combiner glass. For most Phantoms this just gave you a fixed reticle which would be useless in a gun fight. Mostly for missile, rocket and bomb drops. Mil setting determines the elevation (lead) on the combiner glass but it was fixed and didn't move to adjust for G and such. At least for Phantoms prior to the 80's. Actually, didn't the gunsight have a "caged" and "uncaged" mode? Seems like it could be set up to compute lead on a target for gunfire... maybe I'm thinking of another aircraft though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SCOUT712 Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 Actually, didn't the gunsight have a "caged" and "uncaged" mode? Seems like it could be set up to compute lead on a target for gunfire... maybe I'm thinking of another aircraft though. That's correct. SCOUT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Grizzly Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 Here is a pic of an F4E cockpit panel. The HUD or-gunsigth-or whatever you want-is the same as F4G one. http://uscockpits.com/Jet%20Fighters/F-4E%...0II%20front.JPG Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jinxter13 Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 I maybe mistaken here, but if I'm correct the "HUD" came with the F-15. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
David Walker Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 (edited) Here is a pic of an F4E cockpit panel. The HUD or-gunsigth-or whatever you want-is the same as F4G one. That's certainly one of the better photos I've seen. For some reason, particularly in the Detail and Scale books, they shot the cockpit pictures so low the gunsight was almost always cut off. Edited November 2, 2007 by David Walker Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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