Need Information On Curtiss Hawk III (Export BF2C-1)

[Old Man]

I have the MPM 1/72 kit of this squirreled away, and have long wanted to build the thing, as I have a fascination for the early stages of the Sino-Japanese War. The kit was one of the first I bought when I returned to the hobby, and after a good look at it I figured it should definitely be laid away till I had got in some serious practice. I think I am fit to tackle it now, and it would be a good fit with the up-coming Pacific group build.

I do not have much in the way of references on the type, however, and have not had much luck in hunting them up. I have encountered some un-sourced statements on differences between the export and Navy versions, regarding the cowling particularly, that give me a little pause. I have not been able to find any photographs of the interior, though I have come across a couple of drawings that seem helpful, and statements that the Curtiss cockpit was 'lined' with aluminum sheet, and that there was no solid floor to the cockpit. I gather the Chinese removed the covering from the very rear of the fuselage, exposing the structure of the tail-wheel there, and probably some of the control workings.

I have attempted to acquire a copy of the Squadron Signal "Curtiss Navy Hawks In Action' No. 1156, but have not found a reliable seller (though someone does have my fifteen dollars for one sent off six months ago...).

If anyone can help with particulars and details, I would be very grateful.

[gearheadrandy]

Amazon lists several copies of the Squadron book:

http://www.amazon.com/Curtiss-Navy-Hawks-A...8061&sr=8-1

The book has no cockpit photos or other interior information. However, there are two photos of a Chinese Hawk III, and two of Thai examples, which may be of interest. Looking at my copy . . . .

The cowling appears more bulbous, with a smaller front opening, than the BF2C-1s shown a few pages earlier. The inner lip is notched at 2:00 and 10:00 to accommodate the two machine guns. The guns were housed in large blisters on the forward fuselage (the Chinese example shown, supposedly being used as a trainer in 1944, lacks these bulges). Three-blade prop. The Chinese machine lacks the after canopy, and the extreme aft fuselage is uncovered as you describe.

I just dug out my MPM kit, the 'Upgraded' release of the Hawk III with a picture of a Chinese machine on the box. It includes the gun bulges, a three-blade prop, and an attempt at the correct cowling (maybe not quite bulbous enough, but certainly no Townend ring). Did they release a USN version as well?

[joncarrfarrelly]

In 'The Curtiss Hawks: P-1 Through P-40 Series' by Shamburger and Christy they quote Curtiss engineer Edwin C.Walton on designing the Hawk III:

"... substituted short stub exhaust stacks on the engine in lieu of the newer collector ring, modified the NACA cowl to suit,... "

" I recall that I installed armor plate behind and under the pilot's seats on Hawk going to China."

No aluminum cockpit lining is visible here:

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/2841/chiiipo8.jpg

The cutaway in the Curtiss Hawks book does not show a cockpit lining on the BF2C-1/Hawk II but it does show a lining on the P-6E cutaway. The lining is also apparent in photos of the P-6E cockpit.

As to earlier types, no lining is visible in photos or drawings for the P-1/F6C-1 & 3 or the P-3/F6C-4.

The lined cockpit may be unique to the P-6E.

Jon

Edited February 19, 2008 by joncarrfarrelly

[flypaper2222]

Hello Old Man,

Just wondering if you still need some pic's etc of the Hawk III ? I did a quick search of my stuff and have come up with some info if your interested,

Cheers....Flypaper.

[Old Man]

Amazon lists several copies of the Squadron book:

http://www.amazon.com/Curtiss-Navy-Hawks-A...8061&sr=8-1

The book has no cockpit photos or other interior information. However, there are two photos of a Chinese Hawk III, and two of Thai examples, which may be of interest. Looking at my copy . . . .

The cowling appears more bulbous, with a smaller front opening, than the BF2C-1s shown a few pages earlier. The inner lip is notched at 2:00 and 10:00 to accommodate the two machine guns. The guns were housed in large blisters on the forward fuselage (the Chinese example shown, supposedly being used as a trainer in 1944, lacks these bulges). Three-blade prop. The Chinese machine lacks the after canopy, and the extreme aft fuselage is uncovered as you describe.

I just dug out my MPM kit, the 'Upgraded' release of the Hawk III with a picture of a Chinese machine on the box. It includes the gun bulges, a three-blade prop, and an attempt at the correct cowling (maybe not quite bulbous enough, but certainly no Townend ring). Did they release a USN version as well?

Thank you very much, Sir.

I do not think of Amazon for used materials, and probably should. I will check them out after the start of the coming month, when I may have some small modeling budget again for a few days.

While A.R.C. was down, I found this very interesting site:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...l%3Den%26sa%3DN

If you scroll down to the bottom, you will find some pictures of of the machine I intend to model, '2503' of the 25th Pursuit Squadron, profiled in an old issue of 'Aviation Enthusiast', in its extremis on a race course at Shanghai. It seems pretty clear the thing does not have the large bulge on the starboard side the kit shows, but does have the bulge on the port side, and that it was fitted with the rear windscreen.

I agree just by Mark I eyeball that I am going to have to do some work on the cowling, lengthening its chord a bit and altering its profile.

The company did not to my knowledge release a U.S.N. version.

[Old Man]

In 'The Curtiss Hawks: P-1 Through P-40 Series' by Shamburger and Christy they quote Curtiss engineer Edwin C.Walton on designing the Hawk III:

"... substituted short stub exhaust stacks on the engine in lieu of the newer collector ring, modified the NACA cowl to suit,... "

" I recall that I installed armor plate behind and under the pilot's seats on Hawk going to China."

No aluminum cockpit lining is visible here:

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/2841/chiiipo8.jpg

The cutaway in the Curtiss Hawks book does not show a cockpit lining on the BF2C-1/Hawk II but it does show a lining on the P-6E cutaway. The lining is also apparent in photos of the P-6E cockpit.

As to earlier types, no lining is visible in photos or drawings for the P-1/F6C-1 & 3 or the P-3/F6C-4.

The lined cockpit may be unique to the P-6E.

Jon

Thank you very much, Sir!

That is a very helpful photograph. Do you know its provenance? I am probably letting the wish be father to the thought, but the workman in it strikes me as vaguely Oriental, and this leads me to hope it might be from the CAMCO facility at Hangchow, where ninety of the Chinese Hawk IIIs were assembled from Curtiss-supplied kits. I am also very glad of the confirmation of armor plate in these fighters, and of the detail on the exhaust arrangements.

Regarding the possible lining of the cockpit. Here is a link to the Curtiss Co. brochure that put the bee in my bonnet in the first place:

http://www.airminded.net/goshawk/goshawkad.html

While A.R.C. was down, I managed to turn up this site, apparently no longer in existence save on cache, which features pictures of the Thai machine preserved at Bangkok:

http://www.plastikowe.pl/galerie/lotnictwo/curtiss-hawk-iii

It is clear in these pictures the sides of the cockpit are lined. Unfortunately, of course, the Thai example cannot be taken as certainly the same as the Chinese, for it is known there were differences in the article supplied the two countries. I can certainly think of reasons the Chinese version might have lacked the lining, starting with saving a little time in assembly at Hangchow, and in routine inspection and maintenance at the squadron level.

[Old Man]

Hello Old Man,

Just wondering if you still need some pic's etc of the Hawk III ? I did a quick search of my stuff and have come up with some info if your interested,

Cheers....Flypaper.

Thank you very much, Sir!

I am definitely still interested in anything I can put to hand on the subject, and much in your debt for your help with the FB-1 build.

"Research is not complete till complete confusion is achieved."

[flypaper2222]

Thank you very much, Sir!

I am definitely still interested in anything I can put to hand on the subject, and much in your debt for your help with the FB-1 build.

"Research is not complete till complete confusion is achieved."

Nice site you posted Old Man....it seems it has all you need to finish the A/C in the markings you need. I would like to put in my 2 cents about the side walls of the cockpit which I feel WERE also in the III, why would Curtiss make an about face in its construction as it moved along with newer and newer a/c. If you look at Boeing fighters of this time you will see the same thing, the start of the use of side walls. The Color photos I have in this post are of a USN Hawk (like the II) and they show sidewalls, as I said I see no reason for them to step back and not use them in the III.

Edited February 20, 2008 by flypaper2222

[flypaper2222]

and some more.

[flypaper2222]

and the rest.

Cheers flypaper

[Old Man]

and the rest.

Cheers flypaper

Thank you very much, Sir! This is all quite a trove of useful stuff.

I am glad you know of Mr. C. W. Lam's site. He is definitely a treasure for people interested in Chinese subjects, and seems to have collected the majority of photographs and drawings available. I had considered as possible subjects several of the pictures and profiles you have posted, particularly the IV-I machine, which has something of a history about it. I settled on the '2503' machine mostly because of the Chinese inscription on the nose: I am looking forward to trying my hand at calligraphy in the Oriental style with a 20/0 brush. Also, the numbers given in the MPM kit's decals, 2405 and 2403, can be sliced and diced into 2503 without much bother. Finding those pictures certainly sealed the deal.

The F11C-1 cockpit shots are most helpful indeed, especially the look at the floor. Floors are much easier than 'perches'. I am at this point inclined to a lined cockpit, though only slightly. It would certainly be easier to model, saving the application of stringers to the side-wall. But the photograph of the one under construction does give me pause, and if it is of assembly of a Chinese Hawk, would incline me the other way. As I said, I can see points in favor of a 'no frills' version being supplied for assembly at the CAMCO facility. In addition to the practical considerations of easier assembly and maintenance, a number of people, including the Curtiss representative in China, were angling to get as much of the purchase price paid by Nanking into their own pockets, rather than into the bank accounts of the firm, as they could manage; if a little less was actually supplied by the Curtiss factory (at the same or a higher price quoted by the sales representative, of course), a little more would be available for the siphoning....

Edited February 21, 2008 by Old Man

[mbittner]

Sorry to chime in here but a few things to add.

First, for those who don't know, Sierra Scale makes 1/72nd decals for a Siam Hawk III to work with the MPM kit.

If memory serves, there were two releases of the Hawk III, the latest one with extra resin bits. I have two Hawk IIIs (I want to turn one into a US Navy BF2C) but unfortunately both are of the first release.

Finally, I'm trying to remember all the changes needed to turn the Hawk III back into the US Navy BF2C. Can anyone help? TIA!

[Old Man]

Sorry to chime in here but a few things to add.

First, for those who don't know, Sierra Scale makes 1/72nd decals for a Siam Hawk III to work with the MPM kit.

If memory serves, there were two releases of the Hawk III, the latest one with extra resin bits. I have two Hawk IIIs (I want to turn one into a US Navy BF2C) but unfortunately both are of the first release.

Finally, I'm trying to remember all the changes needed to turn the Hawk III back into the US Navy BF2C. Can anyone help? TIA!

And great decals they are, too, Sir. I acquired three sheets when I found out about them. They get the right blue for the Nationalist markings, which most people make too pale, and which are way, way, way too pale in the MPM kit decals. The sheet also contains markings for a Navy BF2C.

I have now a total of three examples of this kit. The 'Hi-Tech' version with the resin bits was one of the first things I bought when I found Squadron, and as I said above, I decided it was more than I could tackle then with any expectation of the kind of result I wanted. The other two I acquired from people selling off stash, in order to have back-up should I botch my attempt, and are the original, no extras' boxing.

The best part of the resin set is the motor, which I will certainly use. The floor and sidewalls are good, but the sidewalls have structural detail that I am not certain was actually showing, and I am not sure the floor will fit once I am done doing what I do to sidewalls in any case.

I am pretty sure the cowling would need its chord reduced for the Navy version, but am unsure otherwise.

Edited February 21, 2008 by Old Man

[flypaper2222]

Hello Old Man,

Here a few more that might be of some help in your build.

Cheers.....Flypaper

[flypaper2222]

Sorry to chime in here but a few things to add.

First, for those who don't know, Sierra Scale makes 1/72nd decals for a Siam Hawk III to work with the MPM kit.

If memory serves, there were two releases of the Hawk III, the latest one with extra resin bits. I have two Hawk IIIs (I want to turn one into a US Navy BF2C) but unfortunately both are of the first release.

Finally, I'm trying to remember all the changes needed to turn the Hawk III back into the US Navy BF2C. Can anyone help? TIA!

Matt

From what I have read you would need to add any gear that was used for ship board ops (tail hook), a 2 bladed prop, and the R-1820-04, instead of the R-1820-F35 as used in the Hawk III. and thats about it, from what I can see in the photos the cowl was the same except for the XF11C-3 which had a more F11C-2 cowl/ring. The bulge for the mg on each side appears to be the small version as opposed to the larger one on the Thai Hawk III's, perhaps the Thai had a .50 as opposed to the 2 .30 mg's on the US Navy Hawks.

Flypaper.

[Old Man]

Resurrecting this thread, as I am getting underway with this build, for the PACAIR2 group build.

At this point, the only research problem remaining is the aspect of the ventral concavity. The Squadron/Signal number on Navy Hawks has a clear photograph of this area on the prototype, but that does not seem to have been fitted with racks for tank or armament when the photograph was taken.

[Old Man]

I think I may have to change my maxim concerning research from 'Research is never complete till confusion is' to simply "Research is never complete...that is all...."

I came upon this link recently to a video presentation of old news-reel footage of '2503' wreckage, and thought I would put it up here, as this thread comes in surprisingly high when you Google 'Curtiss Hawk III'.

http://www.thoughtequity.com/video/clip/635031_009.do

The clip has some very useful views, among other things confirming the type and location of bomb-racks on the lower wings. One shot shows an open panel, and what can be seen through it seems to me to confirm the presence of cockpit lining.

[Old Man]

I am adding this picture of the completed model to this thread, because it shows the center-line rack and some other detail in the area. This was prepared according to a copy-righted picture I was asked not to reproduce on-line by the gentleman who shared it with me, and I have done my best to get it right.

More pictures, and an account of the build, can be found here:

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index....60822&st=40

Edited September 24, 2008 by Old Man

[El pibe vitina]

This was prepared according to a copy-righted picture I was asked not to reproduce on-line by the gentleman who shared it with me, and I have done my best to get it right.

For those who are interested, that picture is included in this book:

CURTISS HAWK. Serie Fuerza Aérea Argentina No. 5 by Jorge Nuñez Padín.

Congratulations and many thanks for observe the copyright laws. You are the truly gentleman.

Cya!