Chris Kethan Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Hi Boats,...That is the pilot's decision alone. It is up to the crew to do a thorough review of the landing conditions, and not to press a bad situation. Where was his dispatcher on this one? I can't tell from the video if the winds were out of limits, but it sure looks like it.. Regards, Pig They may not have been out of limits, but they sure were out of good headwork. This should have been a go-around long before they got close to the ground. Chris Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boats Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Your right about the pilot having the last call, However. The tower knows the weather or should have it in hand. If the cross winds or so bad that we see landings like this, me and tha ATC will meet out back. Killing some folks and and the aircraft on a bad weather call on the towers part is very POOR ATC work. Sorry folks I no the rules too, except mine or old school. I was on a landing like that at San Diego in a DC-9, the pilot took us over too NAS. The folks living under the path called the airport and the city, well they called anyone they could think off, even after we landed at NAS there was another bad cross wind landing gone bad and that was a Boeing 737 loaded, it landed at NAS as well. By the way, both plane loads of people wanted a talk withe ATCs. out back.. ;) "Boats".. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zebra Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Boats, I understand where you are coming from, but I have to agree with Pig. Although my 3500 hours are significantly less than his, and none of them in heavy jets....I would never let ATC bully me into taking a runway that is either out of crosswind limits for the a/c or outside what common sense would dictate. It is their job to move airplanes smoothly and efficiently AND safely...but it is MY job as the captain to make all decisions pertaining to safety. I also have the right (and moral responsibility) to overshoot if I deem an approach to be unsafe. For whatever reason, this crew elected to continue when they should have went around. I also question the choice to take-off again when the wing had obviously contacted the ground....I'm no airline pilot, but I'm pretty sure that if I have a wing strike (especially one like that!) I'm not going to tempt the Gods and see if my wing will stay attached! Our local news was showing this footage and talking about the pilots as "quick-thinkers" and "heroes"....I tend to think the opposite myself....BUT that's just my $0.02...I don't know the whole story. Ben Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NaOH Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 I bet he's looking for work. No way he should have attempted that. I think a divert would have been prudent. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Will7813 Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Hmmm..I think a divert would have been prudent. There was nothing stabilzed about that approach. He was wicked high on the glidepath-a good time to go-around, avoid damaging the jet, and use that extra gas we all carry to go find a divert with a runway into the wind. Just my 2 cents and 10,000 hours talking. Pig lol. I just watched the 6pm news here in Aus, and they showed the clip, a little late albeit. Anyhow, they had a Qantas pilot interview. He cuoldn't stop praising the pilot for pulling out of the landing, and for 'fantastic flying'. I don't think it occured to him that perhaps the pilot should have pulled out before the wing hit the runway. Will Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boats Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Okay you guys, I'll stand down on this one, my 86 hours is out numbered here. My last flight was in 1987 in a C-45. And your right about your call on landings, if you should or not land in a cross wind. In a jet that big with so much going on I don't think the crew knew they had a tip strick, after watching it a few times, they were busy. I never had a C/W landing that bad but then again I was a fair weather flyer. And most of my time was as crew in R4D-5s and P2V-7s, a few years in them back in the good old 60s. Oakland ATC wanted me to follow a DC-8 in and I was in a C150 doing T&G, boy did I back off on that one. I did my T&G on the next go around and headed back to Stockton. So yep your right on pilot call. I'll stick to lighthouses from now on, they don't fly. And since I'm the lighthouse keep I'll make sure it stays on the ground. ATC woulded know how to handel that thing. "Boats".. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RedIndian Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 I don't think it occured to him that perhaps the pilot should have pulled out before the wing hit the runway.Will One might consider the Airbus pilot left his crystal ball at home that day, so unlike all of us watching that video and seeing what's happening, the pilot did not know about the nasty gust that was going to catch his aircraft very shortly prior touchdown. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pete "Pig" Fleischmann Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 One might consider the Airbus pilot left his crystal ball at home that day, so unlike all of us watching that video and seeing what's happening, the pilot did not know about the nasty gust that was going to catch his aircraft very shortly prior touchdown. when my nose is 45 degrees off of the runway heading I don't need a crystal ball to know the wind is howling... Regards, Pig Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RedIndian Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 (edited) when my nose is 45 degrees off of the runway heading I don't need a crystal ball to know the wind is howling... So you are saying that even if it wasn't for that sudden gust, the wing had touched the runway anyway? Now was the gust the problem or the crosswind? So, in other words, the PIC should be blamed to have not aborted the approach earlier when realising his high crabbing angle? Pete, I am just curious and not intending to annoy. Edited March 4, 2008 by RedIndian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Brown Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Hmmm..I think a divert would have been prudent. There was nothing stabilzed about that approach. He was wicked high on the glidepath-a good time to go-around, avoid damaging the jet, and use that extra gas we all carry to go find a divert with a runway into the wind. Just my 2 cents and 10,000 hours talking. Pig That's what I thought when I saw the film. I think I would have bagged it & gone somewhere else, too. Especially since pilots are paid by the hour. I never had a chance to fly the 'Bus. Can you cross-control that thing in a crosswind like you can a normal plane (Boeing), or does the computer think it can do a better job than the pilot? That's one of several videos I've seen of A320s having a tough time with gusty winds. Ben Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peebeep Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 when my nose is 45 degrees off of the runway heading I don't need a crystal ball to know the wind is howling... I've only ever flown for fun but I can recall an instructor telling me that pilots can get into a mindset of 'I am going to land this aircraft' even if the approach has got completely out of shape and common sense dictates that you go around. peebeep Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pete "Pig" Fleischmann Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 So you are saying that even if it wasn't for that sudden gust, the wing had touched the runway anyway? Now was the gust the problem or the crosswind? So, in other words, the PIC should be blamed to have not aborted the approach earlier when realising his high crabbing angle? Pete, I am just curious and not intending to annoy. I don't know if there was a "sudden gust"..I am saying that it appears that there was plenty of reason to go around long before the flare. The high crab angle, steep approach, and I imagine what were pretty aggressive throttle adjustments whether the autothrottles were on or off, and probably missing his airlines stabilized approach criteria, all should have been big red flags. No offense taken, BTW HTH Pig Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pete "Pig" Fleischmann Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 That's what I thought when I saw the film. I think I would have bagged it & gone somewhere else, too. Especially since pilots are paid by the hour. :) I never had a chance to fly the 'Bus. Can you cross-control that thing in a crosswind like you can a normal plane (Boeing), or does the computer think it can do a better job than the pilot? That's one of several videos I've seen of A320s having a tough time with gusty winds. Ben Hi Ben, To answer your question.."yes" and "yes" With rudder applied to align the fuselage with the runway, the flight controls will input a slight wing low attitude. It is most noticeable when the rudder is fed in slowly. The jet is smart enough to know you are trying to land, and does this in the flare automatically. When the crosswinds are strong, you will need a lot of rudder and will need to get the wing down to the proper attitude yourself-the jet just doesn't give you enough.. HTH Pig Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RedIndian Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 I don't know if there was a "sudden gust"..I am saying that it appears that there was plenty of reason to go around long before the flare. The high crab angle, steep approach, and I imagine what were pretty aggressive throttle adjustments whether the autothrottles were on or off, and probably missing his airlines stabilized approach criteria, all should have been big red flags.No offense taken, BTW HTH Pig Thank you Pete, now I understand. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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