B-17 conversion

[archybean]

i bought the visible b-17g today and i'm planning on making it into a b-17f, wabash cannonball. i'm wondering if there are any significant differences between the two other than the -f doesn't have the chin turret.

[71roadrunner426]

Hi The B-17f does not have a dome, on top above where the bombadier sits the F model had four windows on top and the F model did not have the two side cheeks where the 50 cal's where placed on each side on the front of the aircraft. there's probably more but they are the two biggest ones that I know of. HTH Rob

[Slartibartfast]

Dave Roof is selling a 1:48 B-17F kit in the ARC classifieds. He's a good guy to deal with.

[Matt_S]

If you can find one, get a copy of the Dec '89 issue of FSM - it has an article on converting a -G to an -F.

Matt

[Steve N]

Since this question comes up on a regular basis, I thought I'd scan the FineScale article as a public service. Hopefully I'm not violating any copyright laws, since the magazine is nearl 20 years old. Note that this was before there was much in the way of aftermarket parts, so Paul Budzik did pretty much everything himself. Suffice to say, there are a lot more differences between the B-17F and G besides the chin turret. At the very least, you'll need to get new vacuform clear parts from Squadron, since the nose and upper turret are different.

Note also that the interior colors shown in the article are incorrect. More recent research indicates that the cockpit, nose compartment, and radio room should be Dull Dark Green (Model Master "Euro I Dark Green" is a good match.) The waist area should be bare metal inside, and the bombay most likely Neutral Gray (same color as the underside.)

Cheers!

Steve

Edited March 11, 2008 by Steve N

[archybean]

Steve...thanks for posting the article! This will help immensely. Is there a page 44?

Dave

[B-17 guy]

Hi The B-17f does not have a dome, on top above where the bombadier sits the F model had four windows on top and the F model did not have the two side cheeks where the 50 cal's where placed on each side on the front of the aircraft. there's probably more but they are the two biggest ones that I know of. HTH Rob

That is actually not completly true, EARLY F models had the 4 window's on top of the nose. Later F models had the dome up there, as well as bulged cheeked guns. Squadron signal had a book that I still use today, "strangers in a strange land, vol II". It's all about B-17's and B-24's that landed in switzerland due to battle damage and casualty's, it show's a few examples of the early and late F models, but it's mostly G models. There is also an early G model in there that does'nt have the cheek guns. The point is, combat aircraft were damaged and they used parts from other planes, resulting alot of differances in equipment and color scheme. Plus they alot of field mods and retrofitting. So you can buy the monogram G kit and cut off the chin turret and cover the hole for it and have a correct F model, except for the nose cone of course.

You can pretty much make it with what ever combo of armement you want and still be correct........Have fun.

[Randy Wise]

Hey... I remember that article. Paul did a scratch-built 1/48 scale PBY as well. Beautiful work. Then Monogram came out with their equally nice P-Boat kit.

Randy

[B-17 guy]

Note also that the interior colors shown in the article are incorrect. More recent research indicates that the cockpit, nose compartment, and radio room should be Dull Dark Green (Model Master "Euro I Dark Green" is a good match.) The waist area should be bare metal inside, and the bombay most likely Neutral Gray (same color as the underside.)

Cheers!

Steve

Sorry, not trying to cause problems, but you are incorrect. Almost all B-17 interior's (nose, cockpit, bombay, radio room, waist and tail. As well as the inside of the engine cowls, and landing gear wells) as an anti corosive. Obviously, not evry single plane got the exact same thing, they werent gonna hold the production of the airplane due to shading of the interior. Some did have some bare metal surfaces inside. Go to the ARC homepage, click on walkarounds, there 7 B-17 walkarounds. You'll see that the older model each airplane is, the more paint it has inside, the newer cheyenne turreted ones are mostly bare metal.

Like I said, not trying to start an arguement, or step on anyones toes here, I'm the new kid around here, but I know what I'm talking about when it comes to the B-17, especially the F and G models.

Jeremy

[jrallman]

Sorry, not trying to cause problems, but you are incorrect. Almost all B-17 interior's (nose, cockpit, bombay, radio room, waist and tail. As well as the inside of the engine cowls, and landing gear wells) as an anti corosive. Obviously, not evry single plane got the exact same thing, they werent gonna hold the production of the airplane due to shading of the interior. Some did have some bare metal surfaces inside. Go to the ARC homepage, click on walkarounds, there 7 B-17 walkarounds. You'll see that the older model each airplane is, the more paint it has inside, the newer cheyenne turreted ones are mostly bare metal.

Like I said, not trying to start an arguement, or step on anyones toes here, I'm the new kid around here, but I know what I'm talking about when it comes to the B-17, especially the F and G models.

Jeremy

This is a B-17F. Note that this is the waist gun area and it is bare metal with tinted zinc chromate longerons and a few aft bulkheads. This photo is from the ipms stockholm article on US interior colors.

[HistnScale]

From a discussion with Mr. Dana Bell: Boeing was given permission to discontinue the interior paint aft of the cockpit. When field complaints began to come in pertaining to corrossion caused by by dissimilar metal contact, the USAAC instructed Boeing to apply paint to the framing and leave the interior skin unpainted.

The end result is you will find anything from fully painted interiors to non-painted, to partially painted, depends on the time of production.

HTH,

Dave

[Steve N]

Is there a page 44?

D'oh! I was scanning in a hurry before heading off to work, and missed it. Here's page 44, and I also tweaked page 45 to make the pictures a bit clearer.

SN

Sorry, not trying to cause problems, but you are incorrect.

No! I am ALWAYS correct..you're a silly ninny!

Seriously, though..of course there were considerable variations in interior colors, since over 12,000 B-17s were built by three plants over a course of five years. Most pics I've seen of the waist sections shows them in bare metal. Keep in mind, the aircraft in the Walkaround section are mostly restored warbirds, which are usually completely painted for the corrosion reasons mentioned earlier.

A couple of years ago I got to see a B-17E that's being restored for static display near Cincinatti (41-3092 "My Gal Sal," recovered from a crash site in Greenland.) This aircraft was definately bare metal in the waist section (and bombay as well.) with Dull Dark Green cockpit and nose compartment (there were also areas of bare metal in the nose.which may have originally been covered with Olive Drab insulation.) The radio room is also mostly bare metal, with DDG seats and doors, and some Olive Drab insulation. There are also large areas of black "non-skid" areas on the floors of the cockpit and radion room. Here are some pics..the original bare metal areas have been painted silver for protection.

Confused yet? If not, we're not doing our jobs!

SN

Edited March 11, 2008 by Steve N

[B-17 guy]

From a discussion with Mr. Dana Bell: Boeing was given permission to discontinue the interior paint aft of the cockpit. When field complaints began to come in pertaining to corrossion caused by by dissimilar metal contact, the USAAC instructed Boeing to apply paint to the framing and leave the interior skin unpainted.

The end result is you will find anything from fully painted interiors to non-painted, to partially painted, depends on the time of production.

HTH,

Dave

Yup, that's all I was trying to say. Maybe I went about it the wrong way? I just wanted to say that there is really no right or wrong way about it. The ONLY thing I've ever seen that I could say is wrong, I saw a build someone did, of a cheyenne tail'd G model with an F nose. Hell of a build though, the nose actually had the single .50 through the plexi glass nose. But even then I wouldnt point it out to the builder, I would have asked about it.

[terryt]

Yup, that's all I was trying to say. Maybe I went about it the wrong way? I just wanted to say that there is really no right or wrong way about it. The ONLY thing I've ever seen that I could say is wrong, I saw a build someone did, of a cheyenne tail'd G model with an F nose. Hell of a build though, the nose actually had the single .50 through the plexi glass nose. But even then I wouldnt point it out to the builder, I would have asked about it.

Is this the aircraft you were talking about.

http://www.hyperscale.com/2008/features/94thbgjl_1.htm

Seems the 94th BG towards the very end of the war experimented with a weight reduction program for some of its aircraft. The visual indications were the removal of the chin and belly turrets and the installation of a flexible .50 gun in the nosepiece ala´ B-17F.

[Steve N]

Yup, that's all I was trying to say. Maybe I went about it the wrong way?

Nah..I was just making fun of some of the so-called "experts" who love to start flame wars. You're right, of course..there's no real definative answer. Until the last decade or so, everybody just assumed that ALL WWII U.S. aircraft interiors were painted "Interior Green." Thanks to Dana Bell, we've now got all sorts of (often confusing and conflicting) information to argue about. Mr. Bell is a heckuva nice guy, BTW. His seminar/slide shows at the IPMS Nationals are always a hoot, and one of the high points of the convention for me.

SN

[B-17 guy]

Is this the aircraft you were talking about.

http://www.hyperscale.com/2008/features/94thbgjl_1.htm

Seems the 94th BG towards the very end of the war experimented with a weight reduction program for some of its aircraft. The visual indications were the removal of the chin and belly turrets and the installation of a flexible .50 gun in the nosepiece ala´ B-17F.

That is exactly what I was talking about!!!!!! Got one on me, I didnt know about them doing that DURING the war. I've seen plenty with turrets removed after the war. Learn something new everyday I guess. Thanks terry.

[B-17 guy]

Nah..I was just making fun of some of the so-called "experts" who love to start flame wars. You're right, of course..there's no real definative answer. Until the last decade or so, everybody just assumed that ALL WWII U.S. aircraft interiors were painted "Interior Green." Thanks to Dana Bell, we've now got all sorts of (often confusing and conflicting) information to argue about. Mr. Bell is a heckuva nice guy, BTW. His seminar/slide shows at the IPMS Nationals are always a hoot, and one of the high points of the convention for me.

SN

Actually, the fact that there is no definitive answer is a benifit to only building WWII aircraft. It gives so much wiggle room as far as accuracy goes.

[B-17 guy]

i bought the visible b-17g today and i'm planning on making it into a b-17f, wabash cannonball. i'm wondering if there are any significant differences between the two other than the -f doesn't have the chin turret.

I would assume you already have the decals you need to do this build if you name a specific plane. But just in case you dont, I came across this and remember'd reading this thread ......so here ya go, just in case.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1-48-Decal-B-17F-G-WAB...1QQcmdZViewItem

As of right now, the price is at $6.95, $2 for shipping. There is 4 days and 22 hours.

[Paul Budzik]

Glad to see that the article is still useful after nearly 20 years.

Paul

[pastafarian]

Great pics in the tread, thanks a bunch. Definitely saving those.

On that note, is there a really good reference book for the interior of the 17? I'm getting ready to dig into the visible kit and would like to get some more pics that I can build from. Or Steve, if you've got a bunch more from your walk around that you'd be willing to put on a cd, I'd send you a bit of coin for it.

John

[jrallman]

kinda tiny but...

[Jaypack44]

I'd reccommend either the "warbird tech" book, or the squadron/signal "walk-around" book. Both are excellent references for the B-17.

[Drew T.]

A pretty good, and cheap, source of period interior photos of B-17s is the January 2000 issue of Airpower magazine. Its got an article with interior photos of the gun emplacements of B-17s. The photos were taken during WWII, so its a bit more accurate than the restored B-17s. Check ebay, I think you can pick it up for about 5-6 bucks.

Drew

[martin_sam_2000]

Glad to see that the article is still useful after nearly 20 years.

Paul

That article is VERY useful after 20 years. Even thou Revell released an "F" model, the monogram "G" is still the best out there, and i plan to turn it into a YB-40...adn alot of the material you have in that article will help a bunch.

An i have to say..you did a GREAT job on that model!!! If that was what you were doing 20 years ago, I'd love to see soem of your newer work.

sean

[Steve N]

Mr Budzik: I've always been in complete awe of your work..especially your scratchbuilt Boeing 314 Clipper! I hope you weren't offended by my comments about the interior colors.

John: PM me your snail mail address, and I'll stick what I have on CD. Don't worry about payment..I can swipe discs from work (as long as I only take one here and there they don't care.) The pics of "My Gal Sal" are only of the fuselage, which is currently in two sections. The wings were in the back of the hangar under tarps. The plane isn't on display to the public (yet,) but a friend arranged a special tour for my girlfreind and me. They're currently trying to raise money to build a hangar big enough to assemble the plane..the plan is to display her in a diorama as she appeared after her belly-landing in Greenland, gear up on the ice.

SN