Wisconsin Med Flight helicopter crash kills all 3 crew

[Guest AH1Wsnake]

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Edited January 19, 2009 by AH1Wsnake

[David Walker]

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[shockwave]

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[Albert Moore]

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[Tank]

[AndrewPerren]

Sorry to hear about this tragedy. Thoughts and prayers go out to their families.

[CreepyGuy]

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[Hawkeye's Hobbies]

It is sad when dedicated professionals lose their lives from a preventable accident. The area where the accident occurred is hilly and rolling terrain. The weather was still VFR , the pilot probably should have filed a IFR flight plan.

There have been several accidents just like this one in the medflight community. One occurred in Montana where they flew out to pick up a patient in an unfamiliar area after dark. The pilot didn't have situational awareness of the terrain, he lifted off and instead of climbing to an altitude free of obstructions, he flew into a hillside. Initial thoughts are this incident in LaCrosse happened the same way.

A UH-1F I was on, lifted off in weather that was deteriorating fast and it was dark! The pilot wasn't familiar with the area, so he climbed vertically to an altitude above the highest known object before proceeding on course. Everyone in back got vertigo, but it probably saved our lives, the terrain was rugged with numerous power lines crisscrossing the area.

With the availability of lower cost FLIR systems for general aviation, I hope more helicopters, especially those doing medvac install them. In the meanwhile, pilots need to climb straight up until they reach a known safe altitude.

[SuperCobra]

It is sad when dedicated professionals lose their lives from a preventable accident. The area where the accident occurred is hilly and rolling terrain. The weather was still VFR , the pilot probably should have filed a IFR flight plan.

There have been several accidents just like this one in the medflight community. One occurred in Montana where they flew out to pick up a patient in an unfamiliar area after dark. The pilot didn't have situational awareness of the terrain, he lifted off and instead of climbing to an altitude free of obstructions, he flew into a hillside. Initial thoughts are this incident in LaCrosse happened the same way.

A UH-1F I was on, lifted off in weather that was deteriorating fast and it was dark! The pilot wasn't familiar with the area, so he climbed vertically to an altitude above the highest known object before proceeding on course. Everyone in back got vertigo, but it probably saved our lives, the terrain was rugged with numerous power lines crisscrossing the area.

With the availability of lower cost FLIR systems for general aviation, I hope more helicopters, especially those doing medvac install them. In the meanwhile, pilots need to climb straight up until they reach a known safe altitude.

My condolences to the crews' family...

That said, I hate to add to your speculation without knowing any of the facts and this probably isn't the appropriate forum but you made a couple of comments that seem way out there and I don't feel comfortable leaving them hanging as they implying wrong doing on the part of the pilot...

To be blunt... What is your helicopter experience? Are you implying that FLIRs should be installed for IMC navigation? If so, have you ever used a FLIR or do you understand basic FLIR theory?

Secondly, maybe I'm reading your post the wrong way but it sounds like you are advocating some sort of zero airspeed ITO type climb to altitude in IMC. Even if the power margin allowed it (and depending on conditions, it doesn't for most EMS birds) that would be a very stupid manuever.

Edited May 13, 2008 by SuperCobra

[Najk]

Sorry to hear about this tragedy. Thoughts and prayers go out to their families.

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[charles]

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[Dave2]

It is sad when dedicated professionals lose their lives from a preventable accident. The area where the accident occurred is hilly and rolling terrain. The weather was still VFR , the pilot probably should have filed a IFR flight plan.

There have been several accidents just like this one in the medflight community. One occurred in Montana where they flew out to pick up a patient in an unfamiliar area after dark. The pilot didn't have situational awareness of the terrain, he lifted off and instead of climbing to an altitude free of obstructions, he flew into a hillside. Initial thoughts are this incident in LaCrosse happened the same way.

A UH-1F I was on, lifted off in weather that was deteriorating fast and it was dark! The pilot wasn't familiar with the area, so he climbed vertically to an altitude above the highest known object before proceeding on course. Everyone in back got vertigo, but it probably saved our lives, the terrain was rugged with numerous power lines crisscrossing the area.

With the availability of lower cost FLIR systems for general aviation, I hope more helicopters, especially those doing medvac install them. In the meanwhile, pilots need to climb straight up until they reach a known safe altitude.

Times like these, you have to just say a prayer for the crew and their families. What you don't do is play Monday morning quarterback about anyones flying especially when the details are not in. This thread is for us to pay our respect for people doing a very important and dangerous job, leave it at that. I'm with SuperCobra on that.

My Chicago sectional has La Crosse field elevation at 654' and the MEF in that quadrangle is 2200'. Call me crazy but I don't think anyone would pull nothing but collective to get to 1546' AGL before moving out. Now I don't have a EC-135 height/velocity diagram in front of me but I'm pretty sure climbing straight up isn't good advice. But *** do I know?

So lets just honor the dead and reflect on what a great job they did until the very end.

[Hawkeye's Hobbies]

My condolences to the crews' family...

That said, I hate to add to your speculation without knowing any of the facts and this probably isn't the appropriate forum but you made a couple of comments that seem way out there and I don't feel comfortable leaving them hanging as they implying wrong doing on the part of the pilot...

To be blunt... What is your helicopter experience? Are you implying that FLIRs should be installed for IMC navigation? If so, have you ever used a FLIR or do you understand basic FLIR theory?

Secondly, maybe I'm reading your post the wrong way but it sounds like you are advocating some sort of zero airspeed ITO type climb to altitude in IMC. Even if the power margin allowed it (and depending on conditions, it doesn't for most EMS birds) that would be a very stupid manuever.

What I am suggesting is that any means of gathering information about your surrounding environment can be very useful (such as a FLIR) to make safer pilot in command decisions. Even myself as a fix winged operator, I was instructed from day one to not go off into the dark unless I was absolutely certain there was nothing to hit on my intended climb out course. Instead my instructors taught to circle (standard rate turn) over the departure point until such altitude was reached to safely clear any objects that one could possibly encounter if too low.

Even our local EMS helo lifts off its pad, climbs to a safe height turns in a direction free of obstacles to climb before turning onto a departure course to its destination. The reverse is followed on arrival. I also witnessed them pick up an accident victim in valley along a highway. Even with the open space the highway offered they did a climbing spiral departure before turning towards the destination hospital. They're offering a chance to ride with them for a 12 hour shift, so I am going to take them up on it. Given their daily sortie rate, it will be a busy shift. Time to dig my flight helmet out of storage.

My helicopter experience...about an hour of dual instruction (courtesy of a Army Reserve pilot while on a cross country trip), countless hours as a GIB hanging out the doors or sitting cozy inside enjoying the ride (UH-1F/N, SH-60).

Related info to the incident: http://www.postcrescent.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...ID=200880512091

Check this product out http://www.forward-vision.net/

My prayers are with the victims and their families.

[CW4 Erick Swanberg]

I agree that more helo's need some type of FLIR or NVG system to be able to look at the terrain on a dark night especially single pilot. More than one outstanding pilot has lost the battle to Spatial Disorientation at night and in bad weather or went Inadvertent IMC.

It is sad when dedicated professionals lose their lives from a preventable accident. The area where the accident occurred is hilly and rolling terrain. The weather was still VFR , the pilot probably should have filed a IFR flight plan.

There have been several accidents just like this one in the medflight community. One occurred in Montana where they flew out to pick up a patient in an unfamiliar area after dark. The pilot didn't have situational awareness of the terrain, he lifted off and instead of climbing to an altitude free of obstructions, he flew into a hillside. Initial thoughts are this incident in LaCrosse happened the same way.

A UH-1F I was on, lifted off in weather that was deteriorating fast and it was dark! The pilot wasn't familiar with the area, so he climbed vertically to an altitude above the highest known object before proceeding on course. Everyone in back got vertigo, but it probably saved our lives, the terrain was rugged with numerous power lines crisscrossing the area.

With the availability of lower cost FLIR systems for general aviation, I hope more helicopters, especially those doing medvac install them. In the meanwhile, pilots need to climb straight up until they reach a known safe altitude.

Although he might not have helo experience, he was in the back of a helo that the pilot obviously had lost SA and did the right thing at the time. The way you came across about helo experience you dont have to be a pilot to understand FLIR and NVG theory. It came across very condisending. In some of the medevac situations and weather that I have been in all over the world I would have used FLIR to make it thru weather that I shouldnt have been in. If you have the equipment use it to the best of yours and its ability. In an Inadvertant IMC situation on a dark night if I had FLIR I sure would use it to help out as much as it can. Erick

My condolences to the crews' family...

That said, I hate to add to your speculation without knowing any of the facts and this probably isn't the appropriate forum but you made a couple of comments that seem way out there and I don't feel comfortable leaving them hanging as they implying wrong doing on the part of the pilot...

To be blunt... What is your helicopter experience? Are you implying that FLIRs should be installed for IMC navigation? If so, have you ever used a FLIR or do you understand basic FLIR theory?

Secondly, maybe I'm reading your post the wrong way but it sounds like you are advocating some sort of zero airspeed ITO type climb to altitude in IMC. Even if the power margin allowed it (and depending on conditions, it doesn't for most EMS birds) that would be a very stupid manuever.

[sting]

With all do respect to others in this forum...Come on guys!! Let's not forget there are hurting family members and friends related to the victims in this horrible situation. One never knows, but one of them could read these forums. With that said, lets allow egos to deflate before we start pointing fingers at the cause. I'm a helocopter pilot with just a few hundred hours of flight time. My instructor for my private pilot training use to fly EMS. We've sat and discussed a lot of, "boy did I learn something from that!" One thing I'm certain of when this is all over and the facts come out, we will learn something that just MIGHT save our own life some day....or not. What matters now is we concentrate on what we do know and that is... some professionals that risked their lives to save others have died. We need to praise them for their efforts and not talk about facts NONE OF US know yet. I'd be more than happy to tell people about mistakes I've made, and man... there's a lot, with hope someone will learn from them and not repeat them. If I might be so daring to say, even when we find out the cause of this tragedy, let's have some respect about it. My heart hurts for the loved ones. I don't think my family would enjoy reading posts like some posted here if something happened to me. Again...step away from the ego!!

[SuperCobra]

I'll step away from the ego but I can't let this rest as is. I don't want to make this a personal attack but as a former safety officer I hate to see speculation and abhor people jumping to the pilot error conclusion.

Part of the problem is we are mixing apples and oranges here. I wholehearted agree that FLIRs and NVGs are a valuable tool (indispensable to me) at night and should be used whenever available and conditions permit. However, I violently disagree that FLIRs or NVGs are saviors in IMC conditions. That may seem obvious to most but I thought Hawkeye was implying (and later Erick) that FLIRs can see through clouds: “In an inadvertant IMC situation on a dark night if I had FLIR I sure would use it to help out as much as it can.†FLIRs (particularly of the type referenced in the link) can not see through clouds and severely degrade with increasing humidity.

I can’t it stress enough: FLIRs and NVGs are VMC tools. They can help you avoid inadvertent IMC (being aware that they can also entice you into deteriorating weather) but once you go IMC you need to get the heck off the FLIR or NVGs and get on an instrument scan (if dual-piloted they are again valuable during the transition back to VMC).

Likewise, an obstacle clearing takeoff and even a spiraling climb are for VMC and VFR. Hawkeye speculated that the mishap “pilot probably should have filed an IFR flight plan†and that pilots “need to climb straight up until they reach a known safe altitude.†That type of climb (vertical or spiral) is uneeded if under radar control or following published IFR routes and would go against most IFR departure procedures and likely wouldn’t be allowed in most ATAs. Ironically, that type of climb wouldn’t be needed if you were truly VMC and using NVDs; in fact, it would be a waste of time, fuel, and airspace.

Regardless of whether or not I misread VMC vs IMC my major beef is with all of the speculation. No one has any idea on the causal factors of this mishap yet this thread is already speculating that pilot technique and/or a piece of equipment would have prevented it. I’m sensitive to this because I lost a good friend in an accident where the initial speculation was pilot error (CFIT) but that final determination was an unrecoverable mechanical failure (main driveshaft failure at low altitude) – the family went through a lot of needless pain. I don’t want to see that happen again.

[Icehound]

RIP to the Crew of the Helicopter

[sting]

I'm sorry if I rubbed anyone raw with my "step away from the ego" comment. I have no excuse, it was stupid of me. Maybe ego has nothing to do with the Monday Morning Quarterback comments, but I was upset and felt some were making snap dudgements about something they know little about since the accident just happened. SuperCobra, my hat's off to ya buddy, you pretty much covered the issues I was not brave enough to mention. I take back what I said in my earlier post, so "step up to the ego" everyone I apologize...

[hemspilot]

Gentlemen, allow me to first extend my sympathies to the crews' family members, their loss is deep and shall last forever.

Accidents like this have been marring the world of HEMS since its inception, some are caused by inattention, some by inexperience, some by experience, some by fatigue and we can go on and on.

I have flown EMS for several years, SPIFR and in a program where IFR twins were the norm, I was also blessed by environmental conditions that made IFR an ideal ground for our location.

IFR is not the single answer and neither are NVDs, the correct answers are training and discipline.

We could go on pretty much forever in arguing what can be done to improve the HEMS safety record and this thread would distract us from the main "raison d'etre" of this forum.

This horse has been beaten to pulp in other more appropriate forums. Let's go back to build kits.

[chopperpilot71]

This horse has been beaten to pulp in other more appropriate forums. Let's go back to build kits.

I'll second that, I don't normaly hop on these type of discussions on ARC (I use it for modeling mostly) but I will toss this in, as a helicopter pilot I've had my share of 'close calls' in circumstances that no text book, instructor, or course could ever cover and I fortunately went home safely, and tried to add that incident to my daily personal safety 'checklist' where appropriate. The fact is, sometimes these 'un-foreseen' demons can catch you REGARDLESS of your experience/intelect level, and pilots (and every one else) are subject to it. And of course, pilots are human and make mistakes and sometimes get it wrong, and miss something they normally wouldn't have. But, one of the things that has always elevated my heart rate is when people (especially the one's that have no technical knowledge of what their talking about) hop in and are ready to condemn the pilot for something they know little of. I always return to the same thought when I hear someone doing chiming in with such barf, and that is, is this buffalo trying to imply that he's Infallible?? If it's someone that's not a pilot running their trap it just raises my blood pressure and they usually get a fairly dry and simple reply, like 'your an idiot' and I walk off, but if it's a pilot that makes such statements, I immediately suspect that this guy is one of the types of pilots that is over confident and dangerously unaware of his personal limitations and will almost undoubtedly put himself in a situation where he is beyond his capabilities, doesn't even know it, and too often becomes a statistic himself. EMS pilots are faced with tough decisions and have to think 'outside the box' on a regular basis because of the mission, and these said 'demons' can pop up quick with those folks and they know it and train for it as best they can.

I'm not firing at anyone imparticular in this thread, it just comes pretty close to one of the few non-modeling topics that bother me enough to spend the time to get involved in here on ARC, not usually my thing.

God Bless the pilot and crew, and with their new set of wings.... Retreating Blade Stall wont be a factor.