Correct Underside Color for Luftwaffe F-104G?

[Jeff M.]

What's the correct underside color for the Luftwaffe F-104G with the splinter camouflage scheme? I'm not sure if its gray, silver or exposed aluminum.

Also, what the underside color for the "Marineflieger" F-104G with the gray topside color?

Thanks,

Jeff

[Jennings]

What's the correct underside color for the Luftwaffe F-104G with the splinter camouflage scheme? I'm not sure if its gray, silver or exposed aluminum.

Also, what the underside color for the "Marineflieger" F-104G with the gray topside color?

Thanks,

Jeff

I did both the research and the artwork for the Victory Productions Luftwaffe/Marine F-104 decals (way back yonder), and here's the straight poop, taken from MBB documents:

"It was finished in the standard Luftwaffe hard-edged splinter camouflage consisting of RAL 7012 Basaltgrau (FS 26152), RAL 6014 Gelbolive (FS 24064), RAL 7001 Silbergrau (FS 26320), and RAL 2005 Leuchtorange (FS 38903). Note that contrary to many published references, the belly was light grey, not painted silver. The confusion seems to come from the German name for RAL 7001. All colors were semi-gloss."

Marine F-104Gs were the same colors, only without the green splinter pattern on top (in later years - early on they were identical colors and camo pattern).

J

Edited June 29, 2008 by Jennings

[PeepingBear]

I am sorry, it seems I must correct Jennings' statement.

Being from Germany and with contacts to technicians from the Bundesluftwaffe, I asked around and the unanimous answer was that the (T)F-104G -- and also the ( R )F-4E/F -- were painted with RAL 9006 Weißaluminium (white aluminium) paint. RAL 7001 Sibergrau (silver grey) was the typical underside color before the so called Norm '72 was implemeted (in 1972).

We German modelers had the same question time and time again, due to conflicting sources and due to the effect that White Aluminium aged / weathered quickly to a dirty light grey. As stated above, BLw techs told us, without a doubt, that RAL 9006 was the correct color for the undersides of F-4s and F-104s.

I would never paint a Norm '72 aircraft with WA straight from the bottle, unless I'd like a model fresh from overhaul. A mix of not-to-metallic aluminium dope and light grey gives good results, it all depends on the desired degree of weathering. The polygonal camouflage (RAL 6014/7012/9006) was only used for Marineflieger F-104s for a short period, check original photos, if you desire a rara avis. German Starfighter memorial photo website is a good place to look for specific photos.

HTH

Jan

Edited July 4, 2008 by PeepingBear

[Jennings]

Interesting Jan! I did the research on the F-104s many years ago (1999/2000), so I can't recall exactly all the details. But I don't recall hearing or reading anything about 9006 before. The question is, does 9006 (1/1 scale) actually have aluminum powder in it? It's virtually impossible to ascertain from photos (even high quality ones) if there is any sort of metallic quality to the paint, and I have always tended toward "no" on that question.

Thanks for the info!

J

[Icehound]

PeepingBear thanks for the great link.Thats a site I have never seen before and its got some great shots on it.

Mark

[PeepingBear]

Glad I could help, Mark!

@Jennings: Well, as I already wrote, the colour "Weissaluminium" doesn't have a bright metallic sheen, even if newly applied and it ages / dulls to a dirty light grey qickly.

Luftwaffe sources are clear: RAL 9006 is the correct colour to use. But, for a properly weathered F-104 or F-4 model, painting the underside with RAL 7001 or a mix of RAL 9006 and RAL 7001 will result in a realistic look. The underside of "Norm '72"-painted aircraft usually looks greyish with more or less of a metallic sheen.

In the mid 80es, the "Norm '72" polygonal / splinter camo (olive drab, ~ gunship grey, light grey/aluminium) was replaced by a green / green /grey wrap-around scheme (called "Norm '83"). This was used on the F-104, RF-4E, Tornado MRCA and Alpha Jet (basically on ground-pounder aircraft). The F-4F, with it's more "airy" task as a A/A figher, got a very interesting wavy multi-tone grey camo (Norm '81) that was replaced by the current "boring" NATO-standard of several light greys, "Norm 90J".

A good and well-informed source on (Bundesluftwaffe) camouflage colours is the website of JPS Modell "Don Color"

Cheers!

Jan

Edited July 4, 2008 by PeepingBear

[hooter]

I agree with PeepingBear. While serving in the RAF during the seventies I got to see many German F-104s, and as far as I recall they were all Weissaluminium underneath. I even have some close-up photos of aircraft from JaboG 32 to confirm this. I guess the confusion comes from the fact that in certain photos the underside can look like light grey, but I'm pretty sure that RAL 9006 is the correct colour, possibly 'toned down' for scale effect.

[Jennings]

Honestly, I think unless you were building an airplane that had just rolled out of the paint shop, putting much, if any metallic effect into the paint would be over-doing it. Sitting on my side of the Atlantic, and thus only having photos of Luftwaffe & Marine airplanes to look at (except the gleaming natural metal ones in USAF markings at Luke AFB in the 1970s...), they all appear to be light grey underneath. I think in 1/48 or especially 1/72, light grey will look just right.

J

[JEN722]

I have to agree with PeepingBear.

Having seen Luftwaffe F-104s up close and personal on several occasions there is no doubt that the colour is RAL9006. It is metallic alright, but from a distance as well as in pictures and on models a metallic grey would be more correct.

Regards,

[Thomas]

My favourite picture...

Bare metal, primer and RAL9006 on top.

Picture taken by myself.

Thomas

[PeepingBear]

The funny thing is, if you enter a BLw or MarFlg (Bundesluftwaffe / Marineflieger, BTW not Marinefleiger, can't say how often I saw that misspelled) F-4 or F-104 in a contest, you could paint the underside with RAL 9006 and show off as the only one with knowledge.

At least, one can expect the freshly applied colours of cold war aircraft to be of a reliable quality. I really like the discussions about the correct paint shades of this or that WW2 aircraft. Yeah, sure, paintshop personnel during wartime really cared for a perfectly mixed ANA xyz.... Now let's enter the realm of weathering for a good ole' heated I should be building a model!. Hehehe!

Enjoy,

Jan