Master builder's next project?

[Adam Baker]

Something to remember, is that the errors you pointed out aren't construction errors. None of the problems you pointed out would in any way at all have anything to do with whether the model won an award or not. The aforementioned ejector pin marks are exactly one of the reasons why it may not have one.

[Zactoman]

If he has such a great attitude, then why did he throw a fit at Columbus when the F-15 didn't win anything?

Where you there???

I was and I didn't see him throw a fit.

Here's what I had to say about that on the previous thread:

I spoke to john while he was packing his model up and was under the impression that he hadn't spoken to any judges at that point as he didn't know why he had lost. (I may have missed something though...)

I was actually hoping that one of the judges might show up at that point to explain but they were apparently still upstairs watching the loong slide show presentation of the winners. The model room was supposed to have been closed at this point but some 'nice' security guard decided to open it up to the public. Doh...

I will say that John seemed rather upset but I certainly wouldn't characterize it as going 'nuts'. Rather, I would say he seemed a bit shaken.

This was spurred on by several pretty vocal 'fans(?)' that were there ranting about how his model should have won and pointing out problems with the winning entry, one of which was that the vert. stabs were misaligned (a bigger flaw in my mind than something hidden in an intake). As Cyrus noted, the paint demarcations/ridges were another more obvious problem.

I talked with John and pointed out that I had previously lost some contests that I felt I deserved to win and was sure that he had previously experienced the same and that while he was upset at the moment that he had a beautiful model regardless of whether it placed first.

He responded positively and was very polite and cordial, a gentleman.

After he finished packing his model he even came over and asked to see my entry (1/48 D.520). I was rather flattered...

And for those who might have missed that previous thread, here's a link to John's F-15 in-progress thread.

[RedHeadKevin]

I can understand why Jon would throw a bit of a nutty at the Nats. Now, I have to premise that by saying that I wasn't there, I don't know Jon, and I didn't witness said nutty. But from what I heard, the crowd really loved his plane, and the word on the floor was that it was the favorite to win. When it didn't win, apparently lots of people collectively went "huh?"

Now, Jon does some of his work on commission, and for money. If he wanted to sell the Eagle, he would make a LOT more money by saying "it took first place at the Nationals," than "it took second at Nationals." The "loss" could actually have cost him a whole bunch of money, so I can understand his disappointment.

It's a bummer. But, as the President said to Martha Coakley, "You can't win'em all."

[thegoodsgt]

Now, Jon does some of his work on commission, and for money. If he wanted to sell the Eagle, he would make a LOT more money by saying "it took first place at the Nationals," than "it took second at Nationals." The "loss" could actually have cost him a whole bunch of money, so I can understand his disappointment.

It's a bummer. But, as the President said to Martha Coakley, "You can't win'em all."

Hi Kevin,

At the risk of be augmentative, do you really think where Jon's model placed in the contest really would had an effect on the price he sold it for? If there were a vibrant secondary market for built plastic models I could see it, but outside the "walls" of our hobby I can't imagine that the awards we win mean very much.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken, as I'm really curious. I've always believed that those who sell their models on commission ask far less than what their work is worth. I'm guessing Jon gets top dollar!

[Berkut]

Why? I saw that F-15 firsthand and was not impressed. There were more erros than just injector pin marks.

-Bay five (avionics bay behind the cockpit) should hve been white instead of metallic blue

-JFS chimney on aft fuselage not corrected

-Ordinance would not be on an aircraft undergoing heavy maintenance

-RBF tags were on just about everything but were missing from the ejection seat

-Tail hook cover not removed (not on F-15s much later than the Gulf War)

-Vetical fin stiffeners were missing

-The raised coveres on the fins were not removed

-The stabilators were in the wrong position for a power-off airplane

-The speed brake was raised but had no collar/RBF tag on it

So, I'm not surprised it didn't win anything. The 1/32 Ohio ANG F-16 that was right by the F-15 was much better done I think. Don't let other peoples' work discourage you. Instead, let it motivate you to do better.

Accuracy isn't a criteria in IPMS judging as far as i know. He could have painted it pink, and still he should have been able to get second place.

[drhornii]

If he wanted to sell the Eagle, he would make a LOT more money

Actually, the Eagle was a commission build and he was not supposed to bring it to nats. He also has a few CD's chocked full of photos of the real aircraft provided by the person he built it for.

[evnewsphoto]

Yes - with 1/32 F-15Eagle: http://modelforum.upce.cz/forum/viewtopic....=57&t=23562

That link is not working can you repost the correct one, I am a big fan of his work and have not seen it (the B-2 inspired me to buy the kit). Thanks Everett

[modelsntoys]

I saw his C-130 at the Atlanta IPMS (I think that's where it was). It was spectacular...more so than the photos in the model magazines. I also talked to him and he seemed very reserved and pleasant to chat with. I wish my models were half as good.

[Pete "Pig" Fleischmann]

P.S. I wonder why he is not active on this forum?

Probably because of threads like this. After reading some of the comments here-If I were John, I'd hang my hat somewhere else too.

Regards,

Pig

[JasonB]

Probably because of threads like this. After reading some of the comments here-If I were John, I'd hang my hat somewhere else too.

Regards,

Pig

Why? I hear all that time that when someone posts or display their models to the public, critiquing is warranted. I would think this would especially be the case for one entered in a national contest. When people have made comments that perhaps we should post only positive remarks or keep it to yourself, there was plenty of commentary about growing a thicker skin or not posting if you don't want honest feedback. Nothing in this thread to me would be anything other than what I would call commentary on the model and the events that may have occurred related to the Nats. Unless we have a double standard for 'ordinary' modelers, and one for modelers that some would feel are beyond reproach, then I personally don't see the issue here.

Edited February 8, 2010 by JasonB

[Pete "Pig" Fleischmann]

I personally don't see the issue here.

OK.

Pig

[JasonB]

That link is not working can you repost the correct one, I am a big fan of his work and have not seen it (the B-2 inspired me to buy the kit). Thanks Everett

Here ya go. Very impressive!

http://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=5...p;hilit=Vojtech

[blunce]

Why? I saw that F-15 firsthand and was not impressed. There were more erros than just injector pin marks.

-Bay five (avionics bay behind the cockpit) should hve been white instead of metallic blue

-JFS chimney on aft fuselage not corrected

-Ordinance would not be on an aircraft undergoing heavy maintenance

-RBF tags were on just about everything but were missing from the ejection seat

-Tail hook cover not removed (not on F-15s much later than the Gulf War)

-Vetical fin stiffeners were missing

-The raised coveres on the fins were not removed

-The stabilators were in the wrong position for a power-off airplane

-The speed brake was raised but had no collar/RBF tag on it

So, I'm not surprised it didn't win anything. The 1/32 Ohio ANG F-16 that was right by the F-15 was much better done I think. Don't let other peoples' work discourage you. Instead, let it motivate you to do better.

-the engines didn't run

-airplane didn't fly

[RedHeadKevin]

Probably because of threads like this. After reading some of the comments here-If I were John, I'd hang my hat somewhere else too.

Regards,

Pig

You're right. I am one of the ones who is sorta-badmouthing him, and I really should stop. I don't mean to speak poorly of the man or his work, he's a damn sight better than I am (at the moment.) I'm just trying to wrap my own head around an explanation for all this, and to get the reasoning straight in my head. Until I can take second at Nats (or even, y'know, GO there,) I'm going to quiet down about other people's work.

(PS. Please, IPMS... Boston for Nats 2011)

[JasonB]

Until I can take second at Nats (or even, y'know, GO there,) I'm going to quiet down about other people's work.

Really? I can't play pro football, but I can surely tell you if Manning or Brees are good QB's (they are!). Does that also mean that if you don't feel worthy to critique a model negatively, you also can't speak of it positively? They both require that you make a judgment call, based on the same experience and skills.

I'm trying to wrap my head around what people really want. On one hand I hear people saying any model a person displays here or anywhere in public is open to critique, but this doesn't seem to apply across the board to all modelers.

Edited February 8, 2010 by JasonB

[RedHeadKevin]

Really? I can't play pro football, but I can surely tell you if Manning or Brees are good QB's (they are!). Does that also mean that if you don't feel worthy to critique a model negatively, you also can't speak of it positively? They both require that you make a judgment call, based on the same experience and skills.

Not at all. I was saying that my posts were starting to veer away from the model, and towards Jon's supposed outbursts at the Nats. I wanted to avoid that. I think his work is tremendous. But I was starting to speak towards other aspects of the experience, that I really don't have enough information about. I was Monday-Morning-Quarterbacking Jon's behavior, rather than any percieved (or real) flaws in the construction of the F-15.

[JasonB]

Not at all. I was saying that my posts were starting to veer away from the model, and towards Jon's supposed outbursts at the Nats. I wanted to avoid that. I think his work is tremendous. But I was starting to speak towards other aspects of the experience, that I really don't have enough information about. I was Monday-Morning-Quarterbacking Jon's behavior, rather than any percieved (or real) flaws in the construction of the F-15.

[Zactoman]

I can understand why Jon would throw a bit of a nutty at the Nats. Now, I have to premise that by saying that I wasn't there, I don't know Jon, and I didn't witness said nutty.

Not at all. I was saying that my posts were starting to veer away from the model, and towards Jon's supposed outbursts at the Nats...snip...I was Monday-Morning-Quarterbacking Jon's behavior, rather than any percieved (or real) flaws in the construction of the F-15.

Why is it that this keeps coming up?

And why is it that people who weren't there are the ones bringing it up?

I was there.

I was talking with John after the judging as he was packing his model up.

He didn't have a 'nutty', throw a fit or go insane!

Did you read my post on the previous page?

He was understandably upset, or as I describe it, 'shaken'.

Why?

As has been mentioned by many, everybody expected his model to win. Not only was it expected to win first place in it's category but was also a probable contender for best aircraft and best of show. That was my feeling and the same from everybody I spoke to about it while at the show.

Why? I hear all that time that when someone posts or display their models to the public, critiquing is warranted. I would think this would especially be the case for one entered in a national contest. When people have made comments that perhaps we should post only positive remarks or keep it to yourself, there was plenty of commentary about growing a thicker skin or not posting if you don't want honest feedback. Nothing in this thread to me would be anything other than what I would call commentary on the model and the events that may have occurred related to the Nats. Unless we have a double standard for 'ordinary' modelers, and one for modelers that some would feel are beyond reproach, then I personally don't see the issue here.

Really?......

When a model is entered at the Nats everybody is supposed to tear it apart and find every conceivable flaw?

I've been here at ARC for over 5 years and this model is (IMHO) as good as or better than any model I have seen displayed here yet it has received harsher critique than any model ever posted in our critique corner.

And this guy isn't even a member here at ARC! I don't blame him for staying away...

There are lots of models here at ARC that were/will be entered at IPMS Nats. I'd expect the same harsh critique of them as well.

Put yourself in his shoes. You spend over 2,000 hours building a model that you take pride in and a bunch of people you don't know tear it to shreds.

That would really hurt my feelings not to mention tick me off.

Why would he join?

To try and defend himself?

To apologize for painting something the wrong color?

Not me...I'd stay away myself...

The Nats in Columbus was my first time to meet John or see his work in person.

As has been mentioned by others he is a very humble, very nice guy.

It's a real shame to see someone as nice as him get thrown to the wolves just because he's got talent...

[JasonB]

Really?......

When a model is entered at the Nats everybody is supposed to tear it apart and find every conceivable flaw?

I've been here at ARC for over 5 years and this model is (IMHO) as good as or better than any model I have seen displayed here yet it has received harsher critique than any model ever posted in our critique corner.

And this guy isn't even a member here at ARC! I don't blame him for staying away...

Well, yeah, thats the very basis for entering it in a national contest, to see if it stands up to rigorous inspection. Critique corner isn't grand master corner, or national competition corner. I think there are different expectations for a model that's in the running for a national award and one posted in this little corner of the internet. As far as harsher critique, I think that may come from the situation surrounding it coming in second, and the uproar caused by that. It's almost up to urban legend at this point. I wasn't aware, though, that only models posted in Critique Corner were open to commentary.There have been many models posted on other sites that people have commented on, both in the positive and negative, and its never been an issue.

There are lots of models here at ARC that were/will be entered at IPMS Nats. I'd expect the same harsh critique of them as well.

Sure, why not. But the reason they haven't may stem from the fact that there was no ground swell of support for them to win the competition, only to have them come in second. I'm sure if any of them had been in the same situation, they would be looked at the same way. I don't think any of this is modeler specific, unless he did actually throw a hissy. I'm not saying he did or didn't, I wasn't there, but reports have varied. Doesn't matter one way or the other to me. It just seems that any negative comments about the model upset some people because they feel its above 'regular' guys like us to comment on. Almost as if we are blessed just to set eyes on it.

Put yourself in his shoes. You spend over 2,000 hours building a model that you take pride in and a bunch of people you don't know tear it to shreds.

Again, he put it up for inspection at a national competition. Unless he went in with the mindset that he and his model were above critique, he shouldn't be too surprised. In fact, he may look at it as a sign of respect that so many people took his side in the matter and have said the judges erred in not giving him first place. Did he personally know all the judges that went over his model with a fine tooth, uh , penlight,dinged him and gave him second place?

That would really hurt my feelings not to mention tick me off.

Many people have said it right here on ARC (not that I agree with it necessarily) that if your going to put your work up for public scrutiny, you have to accept the negative with the positive. Thats why we now have 2 different forums to post finished models in. One for critiques, and one for just show.

It's a real shame to see someone as nice as him get thrown to the wolves just because he's got talent...

Perhaps he should look at it this way.If he wasn't hearing anything about his models, it would be a sign that they weren't worth talking about. A lesser model that had no public support would have already been collecting dust somewhere never to be seen or mentioned again. There seems to be as many or more people on ARC that are supportive of him and find his model to be a master piece as there are people critiquing it. And really what does it matter? I hate the term, but the model "is what it is" regardless if it came in first or second. That doesn't diminish the effort or the result in any way, its just the result of a couple of judges' opinions. The model didn't suddenly become less because it didn't finish first, and it wouldn't be any greater if it had won.

In the end its just a frakking model.

Edited February 8, 2010 by JasonB

[Zactoman]

It just seems that any negative comments about the model upset some people because they feel its above 'regular' guys like us to comment on.

One of the points I was trying to make is that he is a 'regular' guy, with feelings just like the rest of us.

I happen to feel bad for him for the treatment he's getting. I don't think that merely entering a model at the Nats qualifies you to be a target.

Like I said in answer to the question of why he isn't posting here at ARC, I wouldn't either as I wouldn't feel welcome due to the comments.

Well, yeah, thats the very basis for entering it in a national contest, to see if it stands up to rigorous inspection. Critique corner isn't grand master corner, or national competition corner. I think there are different expectations for a model that's in the running for a national award and one posted in this little corner of the internet...

Again, he put it up for inspection at a national competition. Unless he went in with the mindset that he and his model were above critique, he shouldn't be too surprised...

Many people have said it right here on ARC (not that I agree with it necessarily) that if your going to put your work up for public scrutiny, you have to accept the negative with the positive...

Well if that's the case then what better model to scrutinize than the "Best of Show" winner:

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/us...k/kq-index.html

Have at it...

[JasonB]

One of the points I was trying to make is that he is a 'regular' guy, with feelings just like the rest of us.

Like I said in answer to the question of why he isn't posting here at ARC, I wouldn't either as I wouldn't feel welcome due to the comments

I probably should have said regular modeler. You know, one who never finishes anything, like a lot of us! To me, there's something a little more..something, the term escapes me...to someone that can spend that amount of time and have that attention span to finish a model to that standard, and the term 'regular' just don't cover it. Extraordinary perhaps.

I missed the part about him not posting on ARC. Has he ever? I'm thinking he probably doesn't have the time to post much anywhere, considering the time he puts into these models. I'm sure there's a lot of very high quality modelers that don't post on any particular website, ARC's really no different.

BTW, Chris, you do realize you fall into the same category with your resin work, right? A lot of people look at your stuff (me raising my hand) and feel that you are a resin casting savant and in no way a "regular" modeler.

Well if that's the case then what better model to scrutinize than the "Best of Show" winner:

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/us...k/kq-index.html

Have at it...

Thanks for that link, I have wanted to look at that more. All the pics I saw of it were rather small. From what I saw of it I was surprised it won the best of show. Not due to quality issues but I thought it would be overshadowed by some of the more massive layouts .And again, you won't get the back and forth about that one 'cause theres no story or controversy surrounding it, that I know of.

Cheers

Jason

Edited February 9, 2010 by JasonB

[Timmy!]

I really hate to post on topic's like this as they do nothing for improving the models we build. This one got me ticked off! Having been through a very similar situation at the Nats - it's very hard to swallow an outcome that doesn't smell right. What makes it worse is meaningless criticism! A little nugget that I live by is, if you can't do better yourself then you shouldn't be the critic. Further, what has been offered here that will improve anyone's model? Dribble about weapons on a jet, not enough RBF flags - all non-sense. Having spent most of my adult life flying and being around military aircraft, there are unlimited ways to configure a subject. Safety pins, for example; most pins on our aircraft did not have flags attached, so counting flags is right out the window! You are on shaky ground telling someone that a subject can't have this or that feature - somewhere at some time it just may have and you can't prove it didn't. I read the criticism as "I reject your superior skill because I can think of 5 technical things that I THINK make your model incorrect."

Where and when did John ask any of us for our opinion on his build? Zacto is right to come to his defense, and I surmise that he did because he has walked in John's shoes. I would be shocked to see anyone of the modelers that have taken on a project of that magnitude, say anything but congratulations on completing the journey!

It’s not about just saying only nice things, it’s about empathy for your fellow modeler. Criticism has its place if and when it educates us all and serves the common purpose.

Finally, I thought the purpose of this thread was to find out what he is going to build next? I doubt we'll get an answer here. Which is the real shame, because I could have learned a lot from John. If he doesn't choose to share here I guess we know whom to blame!

Timmy!

[Wayne S]

A little nugget that I live by is, if you can't do better yourself then you shouldn't be the critic.

Timmy!

I find that odd and a very strange thing for one to think.

[thegoodsgt]

Criticism has its place if and when it educates us all and serves the common purpose.

Actually, I did learn something from this thread and the two or three others here that followed "Eagle-gate." It's that you can't overestimate the need to document everything when you're pursuing a best of show award at a national level. It seems it was those alleged ejector pin marks that were the model's downfall. (There may have been other construction errors, but that's the one that sticks in my shabby memory.) I suspect that had Jon fully documented their existence on the actual aircraft, the judges might have seen things differently.

So document everything!

[RedHeadKevin]

Why is it that this keeps coming up?

And why is it that people who weren't there are the ones bringing it up?

I was there.

That's why I said I'd shut up. I wasn't there. I'm basing everything on third- and fouth-hand information, and I realize that I shouldn't be doing that.