Seeking Information On U.S.M.C. Markings, circa 1933

[Old Man]

I am on something of a 'Yellow Wings' kick just now. Having learnt a little of the history of the 'Red Devils' in doing a scratch-built Boeing FB-1 for the Marine Corps group build last year, when I saw Starfighter was offering decals for an F4B-4 of that unit in 1/72, I thought that would make an excellent finish for a machine of that type, and acquired the decal set.

As always, once I looked into the thing, a couple of quandaries appeared, that I hope someone here can settle.

This machine, BuNo 9016, 10-F-7, apparently appears in a photograph, possibly in an old Profile Publications monograph, and the decals are based on that photograph. I have not seen the picture, but evidently it shows the machine with the vertical tail stripes that were being phased out about that time, and with a dark color cowling, which the Starfighter people suggest should be blue, taking its solid color and the number 7 to indicate this machine belonged to the leader of section three in the squadron. The decal instructions depict a plain chrome yellow upper wing.

I have found that the Yellow Wings people also offer a decal set for BuNo 9016, 10-F-7, with the 'Red Devil' marking. This sheet provides a blue formation chevron, and large number 7, for the upper wing of the machine.

I gather also that regulations directed "U.S. MARINES" appeared across the upper wing of Marine aircraft at this time, but that the regulation was not always followed.

I have seen it stated in many places that the undersurface of the metal ailerons were painted the same chrome yellow as the upper surface of the upper wing, but on pictures of restored examples, have seen these painted the same pale grey as the fuselage and other metal parts of the machine.

I have also seen, in the restored 'Red Devil' F4B-3 here in the walk-around section of A.R.C., the cockpit interior finished in the same pale grey, rather than the aluminum lacquer I have always understood was the standard U.S. interior finish.

So those are pretty much the questions I hope someone here will know the answers to.

Would a Marine F4B-4 have had the formation chevron and number marked on the upper wing? I had thought those were Navy markings, and they are not compatible with "U.S. MARINES" across the upper wing.

Does the number 7 indicate the machine of the leader of section three?

Does anyone know if the 'Red Devils' used the "U.S. MARINES" marking across the upper wing at this time? I have seen several photographs of 'Red Devil' F4B-3 machines flown in the early days of the unit's VMB-4 period, and these show a plain chrome yellow upper wing, but the machines were ex-Navy and a temporary equipment, so I cannot be sure this was normal unit practice in the earlier period when it was equipped with the F4B-4, as a VMF-10.

Does anyone know if the restored examples are right about the use of pale grey instead of chrome yellow and silver lacquer on aileron undersurfaces and the cockpit interior respectively?

[BuNo02100]

Oldman,

I have the Starfighter decals and cockpit set (a must and a top notch set that is an excellent value) and can comment on them and the YellowWings sheet also. Having done quite a bit of research on USMC aviation from this era, I have come acorss quite a bit of info and photos and may be able to assist. As a side note, you may want to track down the movie "Devil Dogs of the Air" a James Cagney movie from 1934 or so that has some great sequences of VB-4M and their F4B-3s for inspiration.

I have yet to see a photo that clearly shows the upper wing section of VF-10M's F4B-4s. The 5 photos I have do not indicate a chevron, and you are corret, that was more of a navy marking and generally not seen on USMC aircraft of that era. I have seen it used on VS-14M and VS-15M O2U-2s and SU-1/-2/-3/-4s, but they were assigned to the carriers Saratoga and Lexington and conformed fully with navy marking regs.

The large "U.S. MARINES" script on the upper wing is a possibility, but they did not apply it when they had F4B-3s and VF-9M applied it later on, but not in the 1933/34 time frame. So I would probably leave it off, even though it looks pretty good!

As for cockpits, the standard was to paint all metal parts with some form of paint that acted as corrosion control. The aluminium lacquer first used was not holding up, hence the change to the light grey. Why protect the exterior and leave internal structures vulnerable? Go with the light grey.

I have never seen a reference to painting the metal ailerons chrome yellow on the underside. Pics I have do not indicate enough of a tonal difference to allow me to buy that this was the practice on the F4B, so go with light grey since it was a metal structure.

As for 10-F-7, the cowl color was indeed blue. Upon receipt of their F4B-4s, VF-10M painted the first section in white, the second in red, and the third in blue. Before they gave up their -4s, they had changed the order and the first section was red, the second white, and the third remained blue, thus conforming with marking regs then in place regarding section colors. Wheel hubs matched section color.

The squadron also did not immediately apply the red-white-blue rudder stripes and i have a pic of 10-F-2, with white half cowl and no stripes. This did not last long though and all other pics show them in place. Also watch out for the fact that any letter number in the designator "F4B-4" that is in a dark color should be white, not black as provided on both sheets.

There should also be an individual aircraft number under the starboard wing.

Hope the info helps, and let me know if there is anything that is not making sense.

[Old Man]

Thank you very much, Sir! That just about covers it, if I have got what you said straight.

Neither chevron nor 'U.S. MARINES' on the upper wing. Glad to hear the former, and receive the latter with regret, but will leave it off on your advice.

Interior metal and undersides of the ailerons should be the same pale grey as the fuselage.

No. 7 would have been in third section, and would have had a blue cowling. Am I correct in thinking this is not the same 'insignia blue' as the national markings, but more a 'royal blue' tone?

There should be a '7' in black under the starboard wing. The decal set does not provide this, but sevens are easy to make from strip, and the sheet does show the location and size in its directions for the VMF 9 machines it covers.

My set of the decals does have an F4B-4 run that has the last 4 in white, and one with both the first F and the last 4 in white, and also has two F4B-4 runs all in white, so I expect I can get that right however it fits.

I saw 'Devil Dogs of the Air' about a year ago, and it was a fun movie. The aerial sequences are superb, and I would like to have a number of freeze-frames from it. Plot, of course, was painful; the worst element being the gag sequences of the corpsman pining for business with every landing, and getting none. If I recall correctly, it looked like in the early sequences when the Cagney character arrives, he was flying an earlier model, akin to a P-12 B or C (I am not certain off-hand what the Navy nomenclature for these was). An F4B-3 of VMB-4 would be a nice model as well, with that prominent center-line rack added to the landing gear, and it would be a minimal conversion: it could probably even be done using the kit vertical fin, if care was exercised. Those must have been nerve-racking to take off in bombed up.

[BuNo02100]

Oldman, I ran across another photo of 10-F-2 from the rear quarter which clearly shows the upper wing. There was no chevron and the "U.S. MARINES" legend was NOT present, verifying earlier statements and assumptions.

BW