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Got my paws on the Dragon 35th beast. Gonna do the desert tan scheme. I'm thinking about using Mig's pigments for weathering, mud and sand detailing. Just looking for thoughts on which colors, sets, filters (whatever the hell they are) you guys might think would work best. Also, if you have a favorite "stop" for them, let me know. Thanks fellas. VG

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No idea on the Mig pigments. I don't waste my money on them. I get the same effects using cheap art store pastel chalks. I would use a couple different sandy gray colors though.

A note on the USMC M1A1 by Dragon though. If it is the Baghdad 2003 kit, don't use the extended bustle rack. The rack in the kit was a 3ID rack, not a USMC rack. The USMC had the folding rack found in the Academy M1A1 OIF kit and the Dragon M1A2 SEP kit.

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No idea on the Mig pigments. I don't waste my money on them. I get the same effects using cheap art store pastel chalks. I would use a couple different sandy gray colors though.

A note on the USMC M1A1 by Dragon though. If it is the Baghdad 2003 kit, don't use the extended bustle rack. The rack in the kit was a 3ID rack, not a USMC rack. The USMC had the folding rack found in the Academy M1A1 OIF kit and the Dragon M1A2 SEP kit.

It's the M1A1 AIM kit. I'm planning on doing the 'Hard Lic Her' tank, with horned skulls on the front panels. Does that make a difference in the bustle rack configuration? Thanks again, VG

Edited by vanilla gorilla
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Got my paws on the Dragon 35th beast. Gonna do the desert tan scheme. I'm thinking about using Mig's pigments for weathering, mud and sand detailing. Just looking for thoughts on which colors, sets, filters (whatever the hell they are) you guys might think would work best. Also, if you have a favorite "stop" for them, let me know. Thanks fellas. VG

Filters are nothing more than tinted washes that you use to tint the base coat, and that you can do yourself. Someone coined the term filter and applied it to a technique that many armor modelers have used forever, and had simply called a wash. I use odorless paint thinner and artists oils.

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It's the M1A1 AIM kit. I'm planning on doing the 'Hard Lic Her' tank, with horned skulls on the front panels. Does that make a difference in the bustle rack configuration? Thanks again, VG

i just picked that kit up today, unbelievably beautiful kit.

Edited by leatherneck224
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Filters are nothing more than tinted washes that you use to tint the base coat, and that you can do yourself. Someone coined the term filter and applied it to a technique that many armor modelers have used forever, and had simply called a wash. I use odorless paint thinner and artists oils.

A filter is certainly not a wash. The idea of a filter, as you say, is to add colour depth to the base colours it is being applied over. A wash (as well as a pin wash) enhances raised or engraved details by collecting in recesses, corners and around the detail.

A filter is applied with just enough very thinned paint over a flat surface to tint the paintwork subtly, not to flood the area. For green, I use brown or a darker green.

:D

MikeJ

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It's the M1A1 AIM kit. I'm planning on doing the 'Hard Lic Her' tank, with horned skulls on the front panels. Does that make a difference in the bustle rack configuration? Thanks again, VG

As Jim says above, the parts for a USMC M1A1 are not in the M1A1 AIM kit. Also, the Bustle Rack Extension (BRE) in the AIM kit is the 3ID BRE. Either build it without or you need to get the BRE out of the SEP kit or the Academy OIF kit. The Academy OIF kit has the USMC smoke grenade launchers and Missile Countermeasure Device (MCD), the box on top of the manhole cover, as well. With the exception of some of the new parts on sprue J, the rest of the Academy kit pretty much sucks though.

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Great. I actually have a friend who teaches the weapons classes for the Abrahms in the Corps! I talked to him twice in order to get the intel on which kit to pick up...nice job jarhead(No offense boys, my Dad served for 25 years). Anyway, smoke grenade housing, MCD, and bustle rack aside, I'm good..right? Thanks to all, appreciate the feedback on the filters. Any thoughts on using them? Worth the coin or make a big difference in the end? VG

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I actually have a friend who teaches the weapons classes for the Abrahms...

First it is an Abrams, w/o the extra H. With the exception of the USMC parts, the Dragon M1A1 AIM is a good base to convert to a USMC tank. It is an Army tank out of the box. It is the best Abrams kit out there.

I personally think the commercial "filters" are a rip-off. They are nothing more than a wash that I can make myself for pennies. I haven't jumped onto the whole artistic filters, dot-blending, toning (or whatever other artistic B.S. name you want to call it) fad. I still call it what it is, a wash.

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Here's some photos of a Marines M1A1:

http://community.webshots.com/album/30270126ZGaHhSRfuv/0

Note the different SGL's (smoke grenade launchers), mount for MCD (missle countermeasure device) on the 'manhole cover' on the turret roof, flange around the center engine grill for wading gear (can't remember if it's in the AIM kit?) and retaining ring around the drive sprockets. No BRE on this one though.

A more detailed walk-around here:

http://svsm.org/gallery/m1a1abramsjh3

This one has a BRE, but it's folded up. Don't get me wrong, the Dragon AIM kit IS the best kit to start with, but it will need the Marine bits.

Cheers,

Jim

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First it is an Abrams, w/o the extra H. With the exception of the USMC parts, the Dragon M1A1 AIM is a good base to convert to a USMC tank. It is an Army tank out of the box. It is the best Abrams kit out there.

I personally think the commercial "filters" are a rip-off. They are nothing more than a wash that I can make myself for pennies. I haven't jumped onto the whole artistic filters, dot-blending, toning (or whatever other artistic B.S. name you want to call it) fad. I still call it what it is, a wash.

First, it's 'firstly' or 'first of all..' and in either case, there is a comma after the opening word(s). And I will go and write Abrams one hundred times on the board as soon as I finish here :thumbsup:. Anyway, thanks for the intel. on the tank, this is my first armor build and I'm starting off with very little info on the subject. I had the same thoughts on the pigments, I've always used chalks on my jets with a good deal of success, so I'll stick with that. Hey, JungleJim, excellent pics in the links you gave. Really nice close ups and detail shots, I'll put 'em to good use. Thanks again guys. VG

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First it is an Abrams, w/o the extra H. With the exception of the USMC parts, the Dragon M1A1 AIM is a good base to convert to a USMC tank. It is an Army tank out of the box. It is the best Abrams kit out there.

I personally think the commercial "filters" are a rip-off. They are nothing more than a wash that I can make myself for pennies. I haven't jumped onto the whole artistic filters, dot-blending, toning (or whatever other artistic B.S. name you want to call it) fad. I still call it what it is, a wash.

Thank Mig Jimenez and the missing Lynx crowd for that one. Seems every few years some new guru upstart likes to redefine the terms and process all us modelers use. A Filter is an extremely dilute wash. In essence it acts like a color filter over a camera lense and adjusts the tone of the model. It still a wash though. Then to redefine "wash" the term "pinwash" was developed to describe how a small pointed brush was used to apply the more intense color wash around all the details. Honestly this renaming of everything confused more people than the original terms.

As far as the pigment crap id leave it. Look at my centauro. FOr the mud on the wheels i used an acrylic paste meduim and tamiya olive drab paint. You can thin it to give it a more dusty effect when dry or you can spatter it with a toothbrush or stipple it with a regular brush. Overall depending on the thickness of the mix you can recreate various mud effects quite well. Even rain streaks and such if you mix it to a light Khaki color and then really thin it so its like cloudy water. Another benefit of the method i use is that the jar of tamiya paint and the acrylic paste are cheaper than 1 tiny, smaller than a testors model master bottle of migs pigments.

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I couldn't agree more. I try to leave names out of it though... But since that has already been broached... Ol' Mig has been very offended in the recent past when I told someone his filters were just a wash. Check out his childish responses here. I guess you are just an idiot if you don't agree with him and use his wonderful products.

Edited by HeavyArty
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I couldn't agree more. I try to leave names out of it though... But since that has already been broached... Ol' Mig has been very offended in the recent past when I told someone his filters were just a wash. Check out his childish responses here. I guess you are just an idiot if you don't agree with him and use his wonderful products.

Good God! That turned into a bit of a hairball. Anyway, excellent feedback, as usuall. I too, have had great results with washes and chalks. A little experimenting with thinners, water and whatever I have laying around combined with a bit of artistic creativity is more than enough to create an effect for me. Thanks again guys. Oh, 'Arty', I posted a search in the Market Place section here in hopes of finding the smoke grenade launchers and MCD I need. I don't really have the time or patience to join another forum (like Armorama), so if you think of anything, other than buying another kit, please let me know. Thanks again. VG

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Thank Mig Jimenez and the missing Lynx crowd for that one. Seems every few years some new guru upstart likes to redefine the terms and process all us modelers use. A Filter is an extremely dilute wash. In essence it acts like a color filter over a camera lense and adjusts the tone of the model. It still a wash though. Then to redefine "wash" the term "pinwash" was developed to describe how a small pointed brush was used to apply the more intense color wash around all the details. Honestly this renaming of everything confused more people than the original terms.

As far as the pigment crap id leave it. Look at my centauro. FOr the mud on the wheels i used an acrylic paste meduim and tamiya olive drab paint. You can thin it to give it a more dusty effect when dry or you can spatter it with a toothbrush or stipple it with a regular brush. Overall depending on the thickness of the mix you can recreate various mud effects quite well. Even rain streaks and such if you mix it to a light Khaki color and then really thin it so its like cloudy water. Another benefit of the method i use is that the jar of tamiya paint and the acrylic paste are cheaper than 1 tiny, smaller than a testors model master bottle of migs pigments.

Agreed about "filters".

As you could see in the response on up the thread, I was slapped down for calling a "filter" a wash, but what was described is nothing more than a wash, IMHO. Not all washes are slapped on haphazardly then wiped off. In fact, I would carefully apply a wash, then wisk it away using a large, soft brush instead of wiping or dabbing it off. The wisking action helps to evenly distribute the WASH and avoid 'waterspotting" or puddling, and is more effective at removing excess liquid. Perhaps I should give this method a different name as well and claim it as my own. Sometimes this wash would discolor the base color, sometimes on purpose, sometimes as an accident. But I learned how to control this, and sometimes used a wash to lighten or darken the base color if I had gotten it too light or dark when I sprayed it. Too bad, I should have claimed my mistake as a technique, I would be famous now!

Migs reply on Armorama just makes him sound like a child that has been called to task.

Edit

The same effect can just as easily be achieved using an airbrush. It was at one time the preferred method for applying dust effects, but spraying highly thinned overcoats of either the base color (for fading) or a slightly darker color achieves the same thing. Its actually a little easier, because the paint dries faster, and you get more even coverage. The trick is to let each coat completely dry before adding the next, as you can quickly over fade or over darken the base coat. I think this is one of the first "techniques" I learned on my own some 30 plus years ago. I like how Michael Rinaldi's reply on Armorama tries to explain the difference between the tchniques, but strikes me that its like describing at what point a kitten becomes a cat. So the difference between a wash and a filter is approx 15% more thinner???? Please...

Edited by jburch
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I couldn't agree more. I try to leave names out of it though... But since that has already been broached... Ol' Mig has been very offended in the recent past when I told someone his filters were just a wash. Check out his childish responses here. I guess you are just an idiot if you don't agree with him and use his wonderful products.

Oh Migs attitude and responses are very well known. I know of many people who have left boards like Armorama and Missing-lynx because of Him and his merry band of followers. I dont support the guy. Also his recommendation to use turpentine! Excuse the bloody heck out of me but i know for a fact Turpentine can weaken bonds in plastic making it very brittle. Sometimes it will even find a mold flaw and split a part along that just sitting there. And his techniques require you to wipe turps all over a model! NO WAY ! I had to toss a BMD-1 kit because i attempted some of his crap. The thiners suggested had effectively fused the turret to the hull. THANKS MIG.

Edited by HWR MKII
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Mmmmm...filters....How about the new 'color modulation' technique. Haven't a/c modellers been doing that for decades? -shading/high-lighting different panels and surfaces has been around a while, but give it a fancy name and it's all the rage. :bandhead2:

Jim

Got to draw the line regarding that one. A lot of models being done today and this is strictly my opinion, are way over weathered. Some armour models have rust streaks all over as well which seems strange as the average life of an AFV on the eastern front, Russian or German was measured in days. I got hold of the MIG vol2 DVD espousing the modulation technique and it is simply a rehashed type of selective panel fading and pre/post shading.

Regarding the MIG pigments. Having used pastels for many years and having trialled the MIG (insert brand name) pigments, I must admit the pigments seem better to use, apply more readily and are a time saver. For time starved modellers like me, that helps as well.

Having tried the Sin Industries filters marketed by MIG, they are no different to thin acrylic fliters (thinned washes) I have used to blend varying effects on a model together in the past anyway. The one advantage is that they are pre-mixed, another time saver. I purchased the allied set, but will not be buying another set as I can mix my own as required. I use a variety of washes, glazes and filters on my armour kits.

:rolleyes:

MikeJ

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Got to draw the line regarding that one. A lot of models being done today and this is strictly my opinion, are way over weathered. Some armour models have rust streaks all over as well which seems strange as the average life of an AFV on the eastern front, Russian or German was measured in days.

The last campaign in the west, the famous "D-Day to VE-Day" was less than a year long. And within that, I don't know how long a Sherman or Cromwell lasted, but I certainly wouldn't chastise modelers for displaying relatively cleaner, less beat-up tanks even in a diorama.

My own favorite period it model, Europe during the 1980s, affords many examples of mud-covered NATO and Warsaw Pact vehicles. But judging from photographs, even during REFORGER exercises you could find some vehicles that didn't look too badly treated.

Currently, I'm mulling a build of one of the M1A1s deployed during REFORGER '88. I think in order to do this with a Trumpeter M1A1, I need to remove the cylindrical air ducts on the turret blow-out hatches, and procure some of the older tracks (I have some Tamiya tracks lying around). Does anyone know anything else I should be aware of for this effort?

And as a further aside, with this proliferation of increasingly less-common armored vehicles and soft-skins, I'm really hoping the model companies do some cold-war stuff. Trumpeter: Great news on a T-62. Can we get an M1IP? an up-to-date M60 "a-nothing?"

Edited by Fishwelding
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Alright, one last shot. Anyone have a 35th MCD and/or Marine variant smoke grenade launchers? I'm not buying a new kit, I'm not going on another sight to ask there and I'm not going across state lines searching through yard sales. If you have these, let me know. I have jet kits you can have, decals, weapons, whatever. I'll give you my Acadamy bombcat for these two items if you want. Otherwise, the hell with it, I'll build the damn thing the way I want, like everything else. My nerd meter is off the charts and those armor sites where people can't even put a 3 word sentence together without butchering it makes me dizzy. F it! VG

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My nerd meter is off the charts and those armor sites where people can't even put a 3 word sentence together without butchering it makes me dizzy. F it! VG

Whut you is talking bout? I talk real gooder than U! :lol:

I get too frustrated with the layout of the sites and the bad search functions to get very far over there. I'm even reluctant to buy anything because of the absence of a "good trader" section. Steve, you've spoiled us!!!!!!!!!!!

John

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