F-4E markings

[jbrundt]

Has anyone done any decals for F-4E's of 52nd TFW/23 TFS based out of Spangdahlem ca. '72-74?

Looking for a possible commission build.

Jeff

Edited November 13, 2008 by jbrundt

[Pete]

Has anyone done any decals for F-4E's of 52nd TFW/23 TFS based out of Spaldingham ca. '72-74?

Looking for a possible commission build.

Jeff

No, because they didn't start flying the E-model until 1978. During '72-74 they flew the F-4C and (E)F-4C with the 81st TFS and the F-4D with the 23rd TFS and the 480th TFS.

If you want build any of those, or any of the later E and G models, look for the Airdoc sheets of USAFE Phantoms. There are 2 sheets with markings, one for early and one for late USAFE Phantoms, and a sheet with stencils. These sheets are availlable in all 3 major scales, but they are becoming increasingly harder to find, as they're out of print for a couple of years now.

Edited November 13, 2008 by Pete

[jbrundt]

No, because they didn't start flying the E-model until 1978. During '72-74 they flew the F-4C and (E)F-4C with the 81st TFS and the F-4D with the 23rd TFS and the 480th TFS.

If you want build any of those, or any of the later E and G models, look for the Airdoc sheets of USAFE Phantoms. There are 2 sheets with markings, one for early and one for late USAFE Phantoms, and a sheet with stencils. These sheets are availlable in all 3 major scales, but they are becoming increasingly harder to find, as they're out of print for a couple of years now.

Then that must mean our chief pilot at Boeing is a liar. He told me flew F-4E's out of Spangdahlem from '72-'74.

He asked me about building a 32nd scale model of his airplane.

Jeff

Edited November 13, 2008 by jbrundt

[David Walker]

Then that must mean our chief pilot at Boeing is a liar.

Or just mistaken. I think Pete might even be optimistic, because the information I was able to dig up doesn't show the 23rd TFS switching from F-4D's to F-4E's until 1980 or 1981. And I'm guessing you mean Spangdahlem AB. So yeah, it looks like markings for the F-4D are what you're looking for.

With that in mind, this sheet may be just what you need, though from what I can see online it's a little hard to find:

http://www.largescaleplanes.com/reviews/Ai...rlyPhantom.html

Edited November 13, 2008 by David Walker

[ThePhantomTwo]

Then that must mean our chief pilot at Boeing is a liar. He told me flew F-4E's out of Spaldingham from '72-'74.

He asked me about building a 32nd scale model of his airplane.

Jeff

According to the USAF Phantom reference books I have is that the 23rd TFS reactivated at Spangdahlem on 12/31/71 with F-4D's,re-equiped with LORAN F-4D's in March of 1975,started converting to F-4E's in September of 1981,also recieved F-4G's in Decemeber of 1983,converted from F-4E/G's to the F-16C/D in September of 1991.Only the 81st at Spang flew the F-4C(WW)'s.

Only a few squadrons flew F-4E's during the timeframe mentioned,most F-4C/D squadrons/wings didn't fully convert to the F-4E until the mid to late 1970's,Spangdahlem's 23rd,81st and 480th TFS's being amongst them.

If you said the 22nd TFS(at Bitburg),F-4E's in 1973-74 would be correct.

Is there a particular F-4E tail number he wants?

Edited November 13, 2008 by ThePhantomTwo

[Pete]

Has anyone done any decals for F-4E's of 52nd TFW/23 TFS based out of Spaldingham ca. '72-74?

I think Pete might even be optimistic, because the information I was able to dig up doesn't show the 23rd TFS switching from F-4D's to F-4E's until 1980 or 1981.

Sorry, I missed that you asked specifically about the 23rd TFS. Yes, David Walker is right, the 23rd didn't switch to the F-4E untill 1981. The first squadron of the 52nd TFW that converted, was the 480th TFS, in 1978.

All the other wings in that region, at Bitburg, Hahn and Ramstein, started flying the F-4E in the early 70's. All these fields are pretty close to eachother, not more than 50-60km, so it might very well be that your pilot flew with an F-4E from any of these bases, but came to Spangdalhem regularly for fuelstops etc. I'm not saying that he's a liar, but it is about 35 years ago, memory tends to get a little vague after a while.

[jbrundt]

I talked with our pilot again and he clarified a few things.

He did fly F-4E's with slatted wings. He flew from 'SP' Spangdahlem from May '79 to Jul '82. He was referring to the vintage of the F-4E he flew as being a '72-'74 bird.

I've asked him if those AirDoc sheets were appropriate and he's going to verify. he's also going to locate the BuNo's of the planes he did fly while there.

He'd like a model of his bird with the following details:

"Let's say this, in the next 10 years if you get a hankering to build the airplane described here, I would provide a mutually agreeable donation whenever you got tired of looking at it. 1972-74 vintage F-4E with 330 gal ext wing tanks, Tiseo (left wing root), ARN 101 (antenna external, HUD, head down data entry panel in RCP), Pave Tack IR pod centerline, 3 x TER mounted GBU-12 LGBs left inboard, 3 x TER mounted GBU-12s right inboard, and 2x2 Aim-9Ls on TER shoulder LAUs with Spangdahlem (SP) 52d Tactical Fighter Wing, 23 Tactical Fighter Squadron markings. (Alternate configuration: wing tanks, 2x2 AIM 9Ls, ALQ-131, and centerline mounted B-61). Oh, could you include a TAB VEE version 3 shelter as a display case? This is the version of the F-4E with which I helped Ronald Reagan win the Cold War and tear down the Berlin Wall!"

I told him I usually don't do commission builds but I may surprise him. As of now it looks like the Revell F-4E in my stash would be a likely candidate.

Jeff

Edited November 13, 2008 by jbrundt

[UKPonchoMan]

He's also posed a VERY interesting question about building a TAV VEE 3 shelter! I have been trying to gather enough references to build "some" for a few years but haven't made much progress...

[jbrundt]

With that in mind, this sheet may be just what you need, though from what I can see online it's a little hard to find:

http://www.largescaleplanes.com/reviews/Ai...rlyPhantom.html

I've heard back on his critique of the AirDOC decals:

#21 on the first page would be the correct time-frame for an F-4E at SP, but it's from our ugly sister squadron the 480th. They were the "dumb bomber" squadron on base. They carried general purpose bombs, and cluster bombs, did a little Maverick, and flew as **** screen HARM missile carriers for the F-4G Wild Weasles (81TFS) on base. My squadron had the precision guided munitions (Pave Tac with LGBs, Maverick, etc.) and we had a secondary Air-to-Air mission with ACE Mobile Forces for USAFE. I was an instructor WSO in all missions by the time I left in '82.

Proper markings for the elite 23TFS squadron would be found on #5 of the second page (F-4E 74-044). Both squadrons sat on nuke alert (Victor Alert) on top of the hill at the approach end of R23 at Spang.

Now I need to find some as well as build the TAB VEE shelter.

Jeff

[Pete]

"Let's say this, in the next 10 years if you get a hankering to build the airplane described here, I would provide a mutually agreeable donation whenever you got tired of looking at it. 1972-74 vintage F-4E with 330 gal ext wing tanks, Tiseo (left wing root), ARN 101 (antenna external, HUD, head down data entry panel in RCP), Pave Tack IR pod centerline, 3 x TER mounted GBU-12 LGBs left inboard, 3 x TER mounted GBU-12s right inboard, and 2x2 Aim-9Ls on TER shoulder LAUs with Spangdahlem (SP) 52d Tactical Fighter Wing, 23 Tactical Fighter Squadron markings. (Alternate configuration: wing tanks, 2x2 AIM 9Ls, ALQ-131, and centerline mounted B-61). Oh, could you include a TAB VEE version 3 shelter as a display case? This is the version of the F-4E with which I helped Ronald Reagan win the Cold War and tear down the Berlin Wall!"

This makes a bit more sense, although there are still some problems, I think. The 1972-74 airframe at Spang in the early 80's is correct. The wingtanks, TISEO and the AN/ARN-101 are correct, too. But I don't think the 52nd TFW, and thus the 23rd TFS, used the Pave Tack pod. As far as I know, these were only used by RF-4C's at Alconbury and F-4E's at Clark. He might be thinking of the Pave Spike pod, these were carried in one of the forward Sparrow bays. This was a daylight only targeting pod. Also, the 3 X TER mounted GBU-12's in combination with the AIM-9L's are a bit weird, as I don't think this would fit. Normal Mk.82's in combination with Sidewinders is possible, but the fins of the GBU's are too big to allow the AIM-9's to be fitted at all.

Here's a pic that shows what I mean:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/sys...DFST8210233.jpg

You see what I mean? By the way, you can also spot the Pave Spike pod in the left forward missile bay, with an AN/ALQ-119 on the other side.

As for the alternative loadout, I can't comment on that, as I know nothing about those kind of things.

[USAFsparkchaser]

That is an awsome picture. I have been dieing to see a F-4 with some GBU-12's on TERS and now a question I hav ehad is answered. Anyone else have pics of F-4's with GBU-12's. I have heard Clark had an adapter mounted to the pylon that would allow GBU-12 loaded on TERS and also allow AIM-9's to be carried at the same time, I am also assuming that it would have carried the PAVE TACK as well, can anyone confirm this. Again what a great picture thank you.

[terryt]

jbrundt:

The Air Force doesn't use BuNo's, thats a navy thing.

[jbrundt]

This makes a bit more sense, although there are still some problems, I think. The 1972-74 airframe at Spang in the early 80's is correct. The wingtanks, TISEO and the AN/ARN-101 are correct, too. But I don't think the 52nd TFW, and thus the 23rd TFS, used the Pave Tack pod. As far as I know, these were only used by RF-4C's at Alconbury and F-4E's at Clark. He might be thinking of the Pave Spike pod, these were carried in one of the forward Sparrow bays. This was a daylight only targeting pod. Also, the 3 X TER mounted GBU-12's in combination with the AIM-9L's are a bit weird, as I don't think this would fit. Normal Mk.82's in combination with Sidewinders is possible, but the fins of the GBU's are too big to allow the AIM-9's to be fitted at all.

Here's a pic that shows what I mean:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/sys...DFST8210233.jpg

You see what I mean? By the way, you can also spot the Pave Spike pod in the left forward missile bay, with an AN/ALQ-119 on the other side.

As for the alternative loadout, I can't comment on that, as I know nothing about those kind of things.

Thanks Pete.

I'm going to check. Will report back when I find out.

Jeff

[David Walker]

This has turned into a very interesting thread. If and when you get started with this Jeff I hope you'll post in-progress pictures.

[Jennings]

..he's also going to locate the BuNo's of the planes he did fly while there.

That's going to be tough, since USAF aircraft don't have US Navy Bureau of Aeronautics numbers. Air Force serial numbers, yes, but BuNos, no.

:)

J

Edited November 13, 2008 by Jennings

[jbrundt]

That's going to be tough, since USAF aircraft don't have US Navy Bureau of Aeronautics numbers. Air Force serial numbers, yes, but BuNos, no.

:)

J

Understood. I'll take whatever s/n's I can get.

Jeff

[Jennings]

Understood. I'll take whatever s/n's I can get.

:)

Jeff

There ya go! 'Cause everybody knows Squids are for kids. :)

J

[SuperCobra]

No, because they didn't start flying the E-model until 1978. During '72-74 they flew the F-4C and (E)F-4C with the 81st TFS and the F-4D with the 23rd TFS and the 480th TFS.

If you want build any of those, or any of the later E and G models, look for the Airdoc sheets of USAFE Phantoms. There are 2 sheets with markings, one for early and one for late USAFE Phantoms, and a sheet with stencils. These sheets are availlable in all 3 major scales, but they are becoming increasingly harder to find, as they're out of print for a couple of years now.

This thread reminds me of "My Cousin Vinny"...

Mona Lisa Vito: 'Cause Chevy didn't make a 327 in '55, the 327 didn't come out till '62. And it wasn't offered in the Bel Air with a four-barrel carb till '64. However, in 1964, the correct ignition timing would be four degrees before top-dead-center.

[Lancer512]

This thread reminds me of "My Cousin Vinny"...

Mona Lisa Vito: 'Cause Chevy didn't make a 327 in '55, the 327 didn't come out till '62. And it wasn't offered in the Bel Air with a four-barrel carb till '64. However, in 1964, the correct ignition timing would be four degrees before top-dead-center.

Yes, but this is what modeling is all about, I guess...

[ReccePhreak]

Thanks Pete.

I'm going to check. Will report back when I find out.

Jeff

Any more updates on this commission build?

Larry

[Scott R Wilson]

This makes a bit more sense, although there are still some problems, I think. The 1972-74 airframe at Spang in the early 80's is correct. The wingtanks, TISEO and the AN/ARN-101 are correct, too. But I don't think the 52nd TFW, and thus the 23rd TFS, used the Pave Tack pod. As far as I know, these were only used by RF-4C's at Alconbury and F-4E's at Clark. He might be thinking of the Pave Spike pod, these were carried in one of the forward Sparrow bays. This was a daylight only targeting pod. Also, the 3 X TER mounted GBU-12's in combination with the AIM-9L's are a bit weird, as I don't think this would fit. Normal Mk.82's in combination with Sidewinders is possible, but the fins of the GBU's are too big to allow the AIM-9's to be fitted at all.

Here's a pic that shows what I mean:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/sys...DFST8210233.jpg

You see what I mean? By the way, you can also spot the Pave Spike pod in the left forward missile bay, with an AN/ALQ-119 on the other side.

As for the alternative loadout, I can't comment on that, as I know nothing about those kind of things.

I just found this thread (I know, I'm a few years late), but I have a couple of comments. First, the Spang F-4E this man wants modeled couldn't have had AIM-9Ls. USAF F-4s weren't modified to carry Limas until much later, in the late 80s or early 90s. Almost for sure the jets this fellow flew in the 79 to 82 timeframe had AIM-9Ps, as that was what we had at Ramstein in 1983 to 86 when I was there, more specifically the AIM-9P-3 version.

Second, just to be clear the photo of the slatted Phantom with GBU-12s on the left inboard pylon has the ALQ-119 pod on the right inboard pylon; larger ECM pods couldn't be carried in the right forward missile well of the F-4E, F, or G because of the bulge on the rear nose gear door and the lower UHF radio blade antenna on that door. Also, a minor nit- the F-4 wingtanks were 370 gallon, not 330.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Scott R Wilson

[mungo1974]

A interesting thread.

Were Spang's F-4E's cleared to carry PAVETACK pods? Never seen them fitted to anything other than PN/SJ Echo's.

Mind you i didnt know Spangs F-4E were GBU-15 carriers until it came up on a Z5 thread afew months back.

So did the model ever happen?

[Scott R Wilson]

A interesting thread.

Were Spang's F-4E's cleared to carry PAVETACK pods? Never seen them fitted to anything other than PN/SJ Echo's.

Mind you i didnt know Spangs F-4E were GBU-15 carriers until it came up on a Z5 thread afew months back.

So did the model ever happen?

Yeah, I surprised a few people with my photos of a GBU-15 on 74-1639 of the 23 TFS:

AFAIK, Alconbury on their RF-4Cs and Lakenheath on their F-111Fs were the only aircraft in USAFE to carry Pave Tack. I don't know how many F-4Es were wired for it though. Fwiw I have a shot I took in November 1982 of a 68-model Hill AFB test F-4E with a Pave Tack that I shot at Nellis, but it's the only 68 model F-4E I've ever seen with that pod. Also note this aircraft has ARN-101, as well as the old APS-107 pod on the fin cap:

Edited November 20, 2011 by Scott R Wilson

[thegoodsgt]

Yeah, I surprised a few people with my photos of a GBU-15 on 74-1639 of the 23 TFS.

Scott, what would've been under the other wing?

[Scott R Wilson]

Scott, what would've been under the other wing?

Evidently nothing; I didn't photograph the other side of the Spang jet and after 26 years I don't remember, but I found these shots of Seymour Johnson F-4Es carrying just one GBU-15 each on a DoD site. In the shot of the bird near the tanker boom, it appears he has roll trim cranked in. The right aileron is down, and the left aileron slightly up along with the spoilers. Of course that might be from roll inputs from the stick as he is moving away from the boom, but it looks like what I'd expect the trim to be for such a heavy asymmetric load. When the F-4Es I worked on carried an asymmetric load (the TDU-10 dart target on the right wing and a 370 tank on the left) they set up similar aileron trim before the jet taxied out.