Mitsubishi Zero A6M2a Type 11

[timc]

Unfortunatelly the examination of relics, strongly promoted by j-aircraft.com, and conclusions drawn from it don't take into account degradation and aging of the original paint.

Quite a few Japanese researchers remain rather skeptical.

Also the statement that control surfaces were painted in completely different shade of gray is based just on the speculation that these parts were delivered to both Mitsubishi and Nakajima by subcontractors. As far as I know nobody has produced any serious confirmation of this.

Cheers,

Mario

Yes, the degradation of the paints has been taken into account by the posts I've seen from Greg Springer, Ryan Toews and Jim Lansdale. I guess you've not seen Greg Springer's nor Jim Lansdale's evaluation of the fabric control surfaces.

Edited April 26, 2010 by timc

[sakai]

Yes, the degradation of the paints has been taken into account by the posts I've seen from Greg Springer, Ryan Toews and Jim Lansdale. I guess you've not seen Greg Springer's nor Jim Lansdale's evaluation of the fabric control surfaces.

I'm afraid not sufficiently as JL in particular keeps promoting the shade which is way to dark olive and brownish. I have read all their posting pertinent to this matter.

[timc]

I'm afraid not sufficiently as JL in particular keeps promoting the shade which is way to dark olive and brownish. I have read all their posting pertinent to this matter.

Can you point me to the authority for your conclusion? Can you provide me with your written evaluation of extant relics to substantiate your theories? Please enlighten me regarding your sources be they Japanese or American. If the acknowledged experts are getting this stuff wrong, I think I'd like to evaluate the differing research material myself and draw my own conclusions. I'm afraid that the old Mark one eyeball will not be sufficient in this case.

[sakai]

Can you point me to the authority for your conclusion? Can you provide me with your written evaluation of extant relics to substantiate your theories? Please enlighten me regarding your sources be they Japanese or American. If the acknowledged experts are getting this stuff wrong, I think I'd like to evaluate the differing research material myself and draw my own conclusions. I'm afraid that the old Mark one eyeball will not be sufficient in this case.

I'm not making conclusions neither submitting theories. I simply read publicly available materials where opinions differ-sometimes significantly. Highly recommended reading is Nick Millman's blog www.straggleresearch which I'd assume you're familiar with.

Btw there is an article (still) on j-aircraft by Yoshihito Kurosu Out of an Ameiro Cloud into Hai-Ryokushoku Sky. If you read it very carefully you'll see he's not at all in agreement with conclusions that Zero color was "FS16350 for Mitsubishi built" or "I3 Tsuchi-iro" based on "extensive examination of extant relics".

JL is too focused on relics not including enough of the period documents and testimonials into the formula.

Edited April 28, 2010 by sakai

[timc]

IF you click a few pages back, you'll see Nick Millman chime in on the fabric control surfaces. The Ame-Iro theory has long been dispelled and the article you mention is old. There's more recent work done than that. FS 16350 is way too dark based on the latest research I've read.

[sakai]

IF you click a few pages back, you'll see Nick Millman chime in on the fabric control surfaces. The Ame-Iro theory has long been dispelled and the article you mention is old. There's more recent work done than that. FS 16350 is way too dark based on the latest research I've read.

Yes, and this is what I was referring to

AFAIK the reason why the manufacturer should paint the fabric covered surfaces differently has not yet been explained (other than by conjecture) and the difference may have more to do with the application method used and the paint type rather than the colour (as was the case with the application of OD on US aircraft)

and it remains conjecture in my book until someone proves those parts were indeed manufactured at subcontractors. Then it would make sense that they painted them if different color.

Right, Kurosu's article is fairly old but again if you read it carefully he's basically saying what the current research in Japan is saying. Problem remains with the terminology since "ame-iro" was not an official designation for that paint. It was actually used only once in Yoko-ku report.

I totally agree that 16350 is far too dark.

Cheers,

Mario

[David_Aiken]

Two-Tone Zero 11 and 21 Mystery solved:

http://japaneseaircraft.multiply.com/photo...del_11_in_China

[gregv]

interesting photo of what I think is an A6M-3, it is the 12th pic down the page:

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpB...f=3&t=37230

note what appears to be less-faded patched paintwork on the tail, and perhaps over where the fuselage band would go?

greg v.

Edited August 9, 2010 by gregv

[Spaced Marine]

Here is my attempt to mix Tamiya colors to Greg's formula listed here: http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=4803.0

Overall:

And close up.  I don't know how close I am, but I mixed the J3 for metal and fabric:

The difference between the two shades is very subtle.  Is this right?  Or do I need to tweak my mixes som?

Thanks for looking.

Will

[EZhotshot511]

Probably been mentioned several times (didnt bother to read all 108 posts) but also the cowling color was not gloss black, It was actually more of a semi-gloss dark(dark) navy blue. Also did anyone notice the missing tail on the C-47A in the 7th pic down on the site from gregv

Edited August 29, 2010 by EZhotshot511

[timc]

Probably been mentioned several times (didnt bother to read all 108 posts) but also the cowling color was not gloss black, It was actually more of a semi-gloss dark(dark) navy blue. Also did anyone notice the missing tail on the C-47A in the 7th pic down on the site from gregv

Mitsubishi cowls for the early A6M's were a blue-black and the Nakajima counterparts were semi-gloss black. Dark, dark navy blue is incorrect.

[crowe-t]

Does MM RAF Sky "Type S" (ANA610) look like Tamiya XF-12 JN Grey?

I'm looking for a Testors MM Acryl equivalent to Tamiya XF-12 JN Grey. I prefer Testors Acryl paints.

Edited April 16, 2011 by crowe-t

[sakai]

Does MM RAF Sky "Type S" (ANA610) look like Tamiya XF-12 JN Grey?

I'm looking for a Testors MM Acryl equivalent to Tamiya XF-12 JN Grey. I prefer Testors Acryl paints.

NOT at all. You'd be MUCH better of using Testors RLM02 slightly lightened with a dab of yellow. Out of bottle will not be a crime.

Cheers,

Mario

in NYC

[crowe-t]

NOT at all. You'd be MUCH better of using Testors RLM02 slightly lightened with a dab of yellow. Out of bottle will not be a crime.

Cheers,

Mario

in NYC

Thanks for the info Mario.

[crowe-t]

Does IJA Light Gray have a tint of green in it? Does IJA Light Gray resemble Tamiya XF-12 JN Grey?

I'm considering using Polly Scale IJA Light Gray.

Edited April 19, 2011 by crowe-t

[DAKfreak]

.

Edited May 28, 2011 by DAKfreak

[sakai]

Does IJA Light Gray have a tint of green in it? Does IJA Light Gray resemble Tamiya XF-12 JN Grey?

I'm considering using Polly Scale IJA Light Gray.

Regardless of hobby paint brands you should realize that IJA and IJN paints are completely different "animals" since there were two differenct color standards! Generally yes, "IJA gray" should have a tint of green in it, as well as blue. IJN grays were of more "neutral" type of grays, with more or less yellowish tint. Not having Polly Scale neither Tamiya bottles in hand now I don't recall much of the resemblance.

Cheers,

Mario

[crowe-t]

Regardless of hobby paint brands you should realize that IJA and IJN paints are completely different "animals" since there were two differenct color standards! Generally yes, "IJA gray" should have a tint of green in it, as well as blue. IJN grays were of more "neutral" type of grays, with more or less yellowish tint. Not having Polly Scale neither Tamiya bottles in hand now I don't recall much of the resemblance.

Cheers,

Mario

Thanks for the info Mario!

I know IJN & IJA paints are different colors but just wasn't sure what made them different. I just figured you guys would know these colors. I'm new to the Military colors.

[john53]

Technically you wouldn't be right or wrong to paint a Zero

light gray. Considering they were gray-green when factory fresh

and the amount of time it took for them to fade in the tropical

sun there were definitely "light gray",AKA chalky gray, Zeros in

the South Pacific. So the question is what color gray were the

"faded" zeros in the South Pacific. I would like to do one, but

what shade of light gray?---John

[timc]

Technically you wouldn't be right or wrong to paint a Zero

light gray. Considering they were gray-green when factory fresh

and the amount of time it took for them to fade in the tropical

sun there were definitely "light gray",AKA chalky gray, Zeros in

the South Pacific. So the question is what color gray were the

"faded" zeros in the South Pacific. I would like to do one, but

what shade of light gray?---John

Look at my post of an A6M3 Model 32 on Munda on page 3 of this thread. It's an original color photo (not colorized B/W). That should give you an idea of what shade of light grey to paint a well-worn paint finish.

[john53]

I personally think there were different colors for

the Zero.Different batches, different paint vendors

or poor quality control or just plain "lack of communication".

Here's two 1/48 Tamiya A6M2b kits, "caramel" AI-101 from Pearl

Harbor and "willow green" V-103 of Saburo Sakai.---John

Edited July 27, 2011 by john53

[timc]

There were two different shades of olive grey. One by Mitsubishi and one by Nakajima. Nakajima built machines being distinguished by the white surround to the fuselage hinomaru. Greg Springer did an evaluation on the relic evidence and came up with paint mixes for both machines. I believe they're listed in this thread some place.

Edited August 9, 2011 by timc

[David_Aiken]

Aloha All,

Some confusion about Japanesse color exists. There is NO "Mitsubishi xxx (name your color)", "Nakajima xxx", "Aichi xxx"...just like there is NO "Lockheed Olive Drab" or "Northrop Olive Drab" or "Boeing Olive Drab".

Check the Japanese swatch book for the actual terms and the coloration:

Swatch book and its history By Ryoichi Watanabe

The Japanese Navy color terms used in WWII are:

A - Kasshoku (browns)

B - Aka iro (reds)

C - Ki iro (yellows)

D - Midori iro (greens)

E - Ao iro (blues)

F - Ai iro (indigos)

G - Sumire iro (violets)

H - Cha iro (browns)

I - Tsuchi iro (earth, mud)

J - Hai iro (grays)

K - Kaiseishoku(gray-blues)

L - Nezumi iro (grays, "Rats-color")

M - Hairyokushoku (gray-green)

N - Azuki iro (browns, refers to a brown bean)

O - Shiro iro (whites)

P - Gin iro (silvers)

Q - Kuro iro (blacks)

Highlighted above are the colors which most of you are discussing.

The I3 Tsuchi (earth, mud) iro (color) was used as an undercoat for a short while on Nakajima Zero.

The M0/M1 Hairyokushoku (literally: gray-green) was used on all A6M1, A6M2 (both Mitsubishi and Nakajima), A6M3 32 and 22.

Of course, there were different batches, different paint vendors, and poor quality control and perhaps "lack of communication"...just like the variety of Olive Drab mixes.

While some researchers developed their own color terms before the discovery of the above swatch book...and I am guilty as others...the Japanese terms above (or their translation) is the least confusing.

Aloha nui loa,

David Aiken

Edited August 12, 2011 by David_Aiken

[sakai]

Aloha All,

Some confusion about Japanesse color exists. There is NO "Mitsubishi xxx (name your color)", "Nakajima xxx", "Aichi xxx"...just like there is NO "Lockheed Olive Drab" or "Northrop Olive Drab" or "Boeing Olive Drab".

Check the Japanese swatch book for the actual terms and the coloration:

Swatch book and its history By Ryoichi Watanabe

The Japanese Navy color terms used in WWII are:

A - Kasshoku (browns)

B - Aka iro (reds)

C - Ki iro (yellows)

D - Midori iro (greens)

E - Ao iro (blues)

F - Ai iro (indigos)

G - Sumire iro (violets)

H - Cha iro (browns)

I - Tsuchi iro (earth, mud)

J - Hai iro (grays)

K - Kaiseishoku(gray-blues)

L - Nezumi iro (grays, "Rats-color")

M - Hairyokushoku (gray-green)

N - Azuki iro (browns, refers to a brown bean)

O - Shiro iro (whites)

P - Gin iro (silvers)

Q - Kuro iro (blacks)

Highlighted above are the colors which most of you are discussing.

The I3 Tsuchi (earth, mud) iro (color) was used as an undercoat for a short while on Nakajima Zero.

The M0/M1 Hairyokushoku (literally: gray-green) was used on all A6M1, A6M2 (both Mitsubishi and Nakajima), A6M3 32 and 22.

Of course, there were different batches, different paint vendors, and poor quality control and perhaps "lack of communication"...just like the variety of Olive Drab mixes.

While some researchers developed their own color terms before the discovery of the above swatch book...and I am guilty as others...the Japanese terms above (or their translation) is the least confusing.

Aloha nui loa,

David Aiken

David,

Your insistence on M-series color from Kaki 117 is really mind-boggling.

There is no direct documentary evidence it had been chosen by IJNAF HDQ. Or is it?

On the contrary there is quite some evidence-documentary, relics, paint recreation-that, based on German paint technology obtained by Japanese, simple gray was chosen and ochre pigment added which caused brownish appearance. Japanese tried to compensate for it with addition of blue pigment which caused elusive greenish shade.

It's rather irresponsible to continue spreading unconfirmed information and consequently maintain confusion within modeling community, isn't it?

Cheers,

Mario

[David_Aiken]

The many sensei have repeatedly stated that the Hairyokushoku (literally "gray-green") is the Zero color for A6M1 to A6M3 model 22 (and the Nakajima A6M2 and A6M2-N production)....and I continue to hold the course. Admittedly, I once questioned these Japanese sensei/teachers...yet the insistance of Hairyokushoku gray-green continues.

It's rather irresponsible for a former student to continue spreading unconfirmed information and consequently maintain confusion within modeling community, isn't it?