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Julien (UK)

RAF Mustang's - Interior colour?

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I am building Tamyia's RAF Mustang. Would these have had US colours inside?

Cheers,

Julien

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yes. almost all american build aircraft in the RAF had american interior colours. the exterior was sometimes an approximation of the british colours...but it was still american paint!!!

Sean

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Not to sound dumb, but what colour is that? I've got 2 mustang kits to build. 1 RAF & 1 American. I wanted to use either Tamiya, Vallejo or Citadel paints.

Thanks,

Cheers

Keith

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The earlier Allison Mustangs were Interior Green rather than Cockpit Green to use the Humbrol names. Not so sure about the Merlin Mustangs.

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yes. almost all american build aircraft in the RAF had american interior colours. the exterior was sometimes an approximation of the british colours...but it was still american paint!!!

Sean

Pre lend Lease would have had US Equivalent colours for the interior and exterior,

even some early Lend lease had US Eqivalent Colours.

If they were painted DuPont, there were specific colours. see chart

DUPONT.jpg

I can't comment on the Mustang but most other types eg Buffalo/Hudson etc would have had

US "RAF" eqivalent paints interior/exterior

Note this photo of a RNZAF Hudson ex RAF Stock see the upper canopy framing colour

RNZAFHudson1.jpg

Photo used permission NRMines

Regards

Alan

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Interior Green for all Mustangs.

I believe the Allison powered Mustangs used Dull Dark Green cockpits. The Merlin powered ones had an Interior Green cockpit, matte black floor, and a Dull Dark Green seat.

Regards,

Murph

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I believe the Allison powered Mustangs used Dull Dark Green cockpits. The Merlin powered ones had an Interior Green cockpit, matte black floor, and a Dull Dark Green seat.

Regards,

Murph

Adding to your comments, here's Dana Bell's:

Dana Bell

Mustang cockpits...

Sun Sep 1 19:01:17 2002

166.90.27.162

Arance,

You just missed a good discussion on this from last Wednesday - it was bumped off the board a few hours ago by a bunch of off-topic posts that should have been posted in the Lounge, but small matter, it would have been bumped tomorrow in any event. (All right, everyone, I'm a bit bitter - but when Brett created the Lounge, he made the point that too many discussions were getting bumped prematurely by all the non-modeling related stuff.) I'll try to put something together for Brett's permanent reference section in the near future, but in the mean while you need an answer.

Since you didn't mention which version you are interested in building (and assuming you mean a US-built aircraft), the Alision-engined aircraft appear to have used Dull Dark Green. Some of the early Bs and Cs possibly (probably?) used Dull Dark Green, but at some point they switched to Interior Green (ANA611). At the time the new orders were cut to change the cockpit color, no one bothered to revise the requirements for the seat color, which probably explains why so many Ds had Interior Green cockpits with Dull Dark Green seats. (NASM's aircraft has this combination of colors.)

At the time Interior Green came into existence, it was defined as a mixture of zinc chromate [yellow] and black; in other words, green zinc chromate. However, there were other green zinc chromate formulas early in the war, so you can find a zinc chromate for modelers that doesn't match Interior Green.

Hope this helps - and sorry to use the excuse to go off on off-topic threads...

Cheers,

-Dana

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With all due respect to Dana Bell, I think all Mustang pits (both Allisons and Merlins) were painted Interior Green.

Mr. Bell like all true historians is the first one to say that his conclusions are not written in stone and that he keeps an open mind.

All Mustang manuals (once again both Allisons and Merlins) would indicate that the color was Interior Green, the earlier manuals (P-51/ A-36) call it Yellow-Green (no chance of that being DDG).

Some people point at some (sadly rare) cockpit color pictures of Allison Mustangs claiming they see DDG but I see IG (or something very close).

Was Yellow-Green an early version of IG (pre-standardization)? They looks the same to me.

It's not an exact science, but I've never seen any proof that DDG was used as a cockpit color in Mustangs, IMHO all the photos point to the contrary so do the numerous manuals for each variant that I have.

About the seats I have more certainties, the only seats that I've ever seen sometimes painted DDG in a Mustang were the Schick-Jonhson seats, usually associated with Allisons and p-51B/Cs they were also installed in some P-51Ds throughout its production (there were 2 Shick-Johnson seats, a wooden one installed in Allisons and P-51B/Cs and a metallic one slightly different that was installed in some late P-51B/Cs and sometimes in P-51Ds) .

The Warren McArthur seat most often associated with the P-51D looks IG in every picture I've seen, this seat was also used in some late P-51B/cs (it's all very confusing).

WMA SEAT

WMASeat.png

METALLIC S-J SEAT (pic from Midwest Aero)

56c19067.png

WOODEN S-J SEAT (pic from Ultracast)

4801520Product.jpg

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The Warren McArthur seat most often associated with the P-51D looks IG in every picture I've seen, this seat was also used in some late P-51B/cs (it's all very confusing).

In one of the many discussions several years ago on this matter at Hyperscale, somebody posted a color pic of a Warren MacArthur seat recovered from a WWII P-51D crash site in Germany; it was Dull Dark green.

Regards,

Murph

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Aircraft ordered by the British Purchasing Commission pre-war and into early 1941 were basically painted with US equivalents of British colors. Thus, Hudsons, Buffalos and possibly also Tomahawks and Allison Mustangs were in Cockpit Green. ANA Interior Green didn't appear until late 1942 and was not in general use in A/C factories until the first half of 1943. There are several photos in a book called "From Production Line to Front Line" about the production of Mustangs. There you can see an interior color which is much darker than IG. In fact, the caption calls the color "North American Green". What I see is DDG. This color was definitely in use for B-25's built alongside the P-51's. NAA used up their stocks of DDG sometime in the second half of 1944, California-built Mustangs only then being finished in IG. The first Mustangs to be finished in IG seems to have been the Dallas built planes.

Planes delivered to the RAF and FAA under Lend-Lease were basically finished in USAAF/USN standard colors.

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If you look at the list of (American) serial numbers taken for RAF use, the largest batches are still fairly small, and there are examples of just singletons coming out. It seems totally illogical to think that they would have been taken out of the line, maybe one at a time, just to be painted in the U.K. interior green. Oh, and when I photographed the XP-51, at Oshkosh, in 1985, it had the usual interior green, not dull dark green (it could have been rebuilt, of course.) I can't show a photo, because my flash killed the black, in the paint, and turned it back into YZC.

Edgar

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Back in the days when I dabbled with photo enlargement (when digital meant only finger), it was often recommended to take at least one photo during the shoot that included a neutral gray card so that color balance could be fixed during enlargement. Does anyone still do this? Sure would be a handy way to deal with saturation and variable lighting conditions.

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Hi Murph, you may be referring to "Bill Preddy's" seat.

I don't have a photo of it handy right now but even though many claim it was DDG I've always seen it as being IG.

I prefer looking at period photos for that kind of research so there's no doubt about the origins of the parts we're talking about.

My point is that every WMA seat photo taken in a Merlin Mustang looks exactly the same as the rest of the cockpit which is IG.

Of course that doesn't mean that no WMA seat was ever painted DDG, just that I've never seen proof of it.

I should also mention that Merlin Mustang manuals call for the pilot's seat to be painted DDG but I've only seen evidence of it with the S-J seats.

Here's the cockpit of an early P-51D (it appears to be a D-10), both the seat and the cockpit are painted IG (the Detrola box on the floor is ZC for comparison).

54b11fb3.jpg

Someone mentioned the "Production Line to Frontline" book.

Here's a photo from it showing a P-51B cockpit with a DDG S-J seat. It looks significantly darker than the rest of the cockpit.

Picture1-16.png

Here are the A-36 finish specs.

No mention of DDG anywhere, they call for Yellow Green which I think is the pre-standardization IG.

I know of three color photos of Allison cockpits, they look IG.

A-36AFINISHSPECIFICATIONS.png

A340PILOT,

It's true that all Mustangs that went to the RAF where painted in the States prior to shipping but I agree with Edgar there's no way they used different paints for them.

The pits were IG.

Your claims about IG being first used in Dallas built Mustangs and about Inglewood switching to IG once all the DDG was finished is surprising to say the least.

I'd like to know where you got that from.

Both photos and official documentation show it's false.

You can't understand how Mustangs were painted by looking at B-25s!

Different aircrafts sometimes called for different colors, NAA had enough for them all.

Once again, it's not an exact science and we live in a free country so everyone should paint their Mustangs as they see fit.

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Hi Murph, you may be referring to "Bill Preddy's" seat.

I don't have a photo of it handy right now but even though many claim it was DDG I've always seen it as being IG.

I prefer looking at period photos for that kind of research so there's no doubt about the origins of the parts we're talking about.

Tourist,

No it was a seat recovered from a crash site in Germany, which had lain untouched since the crash. They had the pilot's name and aircraft serial number, and it had nothing to do with Preddy. The picture was in color and was taken after the seat was recovered from the crash site; it was clearly DDG.

Regards,

Murph

Edited by Murph

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Hi Murph,

I don't recall ever seeing such a seat.

If you come by the photo in the future please let me know.

I've been wondering why people see DDG where there was none (this not a comment about the seat you mentioned since I haven't seen it).

I think the following pictures may help illustrate a point.

First a few examples of Interior Green showing how it varies from yellowish to more greenish depending on the photo, the lighting, fading, the Dow Jones etc...

Camera2-1.jpg

photo Glenn Wegman

Picture2-14.png

Picture1-17.png

Here's another posted by HistnScale in the great thread pinned on top of the Prop section about USAAC Colors;

from top to bottom:

Bronze Green

Dull Dark Green

Interior Green

ColorCard.jpg

Now look at these two vintage WMA seats.

On this one you can still clearly see the IG paint (compare with the samples above).

If you're still not convinced look at the DDG samples below it (also posted by HistnScale).

PICT0011-2.jpg

12-26-07003.jpg

This one is the famous Bill Preddy seat.

WMABILLPREDDYSSEAT.jpg

The paint is almost entirely gone/ faded from the back but you can still see some on the bucket.

The metal has darkened with time and corrosion and retains a greenish hue.

A lot of people have called this DDG not realizing that there's almost no paint left on that seat and even more people have repeated it without really thinking about it, I see IG on that bucket.

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A340PILOT,

It's true that all Mustangs that went to the RAF where painted in the States prior to shipping but I agree with Edgar there's no way they used different paints for them.

The pits were IG.

Even before IG even existed? Mustang Mk. I/Ia's were delivered to the RAF before IG as a named (ANA) color existed. The closest color at the time would be what at that time was called Green Zinc Chromate. And that was a color that really varied among aircraft factories. Curtis delivered Curtis Hawk 75's to the Norwegian Training Camp in Canada (Little Norway) with cockpit interiors finished in what Curtis called Zinc Chromate. Adequate supplies were delivered to finish the exteriors of the planes, as well. On Kodachrome slides from the era, 1941-1942, this color shows as a fairly light, grayish, olive green. This very same color shows up in contemporary photos of early Curtis-built Helldivers on the landing gear legs, which were painted ZC at the U.S. Navy's orders. Later in the war, a much more vivid green color was used on the Helldiver legs, indicating a change to the contemporary IG.

If NAA didn't use DDG for their early Mustangs, it would have been a variation of GZC which was fairly dark in hue. Mustang Mk. i/Ia's would, according to photos (p.p.22-23) in Osprey Publications's "Production Line to Frontline" Nr. 1: NAA P-51 Mustang, feature a light color which might very well be the British standard Cockpit Green, specified by the BAPC. There is also a "spade grip" control stick, also specified by the BAPC. I have not been able to verify that this stick was a production feature of Allison Mustangs delivered to the RAF, though. On page 53, there is a photo of a left fuselage, interior, half during production. The caption notes 'how the forward portion of the fuselage was painted in "NAA Green", while the rear section was left in bare metal'. This is a color somewhat darker than what IG shows up in similarly well-lit photos. DDG or a variant of GZC supplied by NAA Inglewoods house supplier? Your guess is as good as mine. It's far too early to be IG.

Your claims about IG being first used in Dallas built Mustangs and about Inglewood switching to IG once all the DDG was finished is surprising to say the least.

I'd like to know where you got that from.

Well, it all started when Airfix released their 1/24th scale P-51D in the early 70's. The instructions claimed that the cockpit should be painted in "Dark Bronze Green" or "Bronze Green", I can't remember now, 35-odd years later, but it sparked a discussion in IPMS circles because Humbrol had fairly recently released their "Authentic Colours" series of U.S. WW2 camouflage colors. The "whole modelling world" were of the opinion that Airfix was wrong, because Humbrol's paint series was regarded at time as THE defintive source of color accuracy, and IG was the ONLY color used in U/S a/c interiors. Period! But Airfix fought back and claimed their choice of color for the kit's was based on official documentation found in NAA's archives. This color was stated as NAA's standard interior finish on the planes that were produced at Inglewood. DDG was at this time the standard color used in B-25's produced at the same plant. There is ,supposedly, a guy on this forum, can't recall his name now but he is a sort of guru on the B-25 and it's finishes, internally and externally. Cockpits on all, except the very latest machines, were finished in DDG. IIRC.

Both photos and official documentation show it's false.

Well, I want to see proof of that!

You can't understand how Mustangs were painted by looking at B-25s!

Interior colors were not type related, but production site related, or, in the case of plants producing both Army and Navy types, customer related issues. NAA's Dallas factory came into production when IG was the designated interior color for U.S. warplanes, and whatever the stocks of paint carried by Inglewood, those stocks would not be shared with Dallas, who would be more or less forced to find their suppliers of paints, sub-assemblies and parts in their, relatively speaking, neighborhoods. Hence Dallas hoods for the P-51's manufactured by that plant. Hence the P-51-NA and P-51NT designators allocated to the respective plants.

Different aircrafts sometimes called for different colors, NAA had enough for them all.

I've already given an explanation why that necessarily isn't so. Roles and theatres of war, yes. But that would not be a governing cause for factory applied interior finishes. BTW, words ending in -craft do not receive a plural -s. Minor digression.

Once again, it's not an exact science and we live in a free country so everyone should paint their Mustangs as they see fit.

Agreed! I'll make my Mustang Mk.1/1a's with British Cockpit Green interiors and spade grip sticks. No 2 Sqn and No 168 Sqn RAF.

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Hi A340Pilot,

In my experience you should never trust what you read in books or what Airfix has to say when it comes to colors (and other stuff).

Each book and author has a different take on things, few authors spend a lot of time researching that stuff and sometimes important details get lost (it's understandable since most of them write books about every single aircraft under the sun).

The bottom line is that pretty much every single book about Mustangs out there is filled with mistakes which quickly become myths often accepted by the modeling community.

I always try to go back to the source, NAA or USAAF records and manuals.

Even these are not always reliable since some of their requirements reflect possibilities that were not always followed during production.

Because of this I always try to confront them with photographs and draw conclusions from there.

I also compare notes with my fellow Mustang enthusiasts on the P-51SIG ( http://p51sig.ipbfree.com/index.php ) which is best resource for Mustangs anywhere.

About the Allison pit color, as I said above NAA called for Yellow Green.

This was the pre-standard Interior Green, I've seen color photos it looks exactly the same.

That's why I recommend IG for all Mustang cockpits.

Merlin Mustangs were all painted IG, this is clearly called for in every manual out there and easy to confirm with photos.

I don't know what Airfix was talking about but there's NO NAA official document calling for BG or DDG as a cockpit color.

British Green is wrong for the MK.1 or 1A so is the spade grip stick which was installed on one or two aircrafts for show but not used beyond that.

Sadly some pictures were published with the spade grip stick and another myth was born.

But we agree it's a free country so have fun.

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Well if you want to know the early RAF contract Mustang cockpit color and seat you have got one of the best time capsules ever in the EAA's XP51

http://www.mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/survi...es/41-038.shtml

41-038 N51NA " Original XP-51 "

History

1941: RAF AG348, kept in USA for evaluation

1942: NACA

1949: NASM (stored)

1975: N51EA (EAA Foundation) restoration

1976: first flight after restoration

1982: last flight - retired to EAA Museum

The seat and cockpit of the EAA's XP51 ..."AKA" ...RAF Mustang Mk1 AG348 sent to the USAAF for eval. the seat and cockpit color should be stock for the RAF Mustang

Pilotseat.jpg

Pilotseatbackpan.jpg

Pilotseatbackpan.jpg

Pilotseatchutepan.jpg

Pilotseatmount.jpg

Pilotseatadjustmentlever.jpg

Pilotseatbeltattachement.jpg

Edited by HBBates

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The cockpit is indeed IG on the XP-51 but while it is a beautiful aircraft it isn't a perfect time capsule, it and it's twin brother had extensive careers being tested and seem to have "evolved" during that time.

This cockpit looks different than what you would have seen in a typical MK.1 even though they came from the same production line.

I think there's enough info in this thread for everyone to reach their own conclusion about colors. :cheers:

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