John Thompson Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Mario, I'm very sorry if I've posted any comments here which have angered you. I also hope I have not insulted or otherwise offended Michael Neradkov, or any other participant of the Scalemodels forum, which has been an excellent source of images and other useful information. I hope you will accept my apologies. I can only say (as I've said before) that it might be helpful if the writings of Vakhlamov and Orlov were available in English, although it does seem that these sources still do not completely remove doubt from the minds of those posting on the Russian forum, so perhaps I expect too much. While I'm in the mood for apologies, I'm especially ashamed to admit that I did not compliment Massimo Tessitori in my previous message. Massimo is truly a leader in expanding the knowledge of this subject for those of us whose first (only?) language is English. Thank you, Massimo! John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sakai Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Mario, I'm very sorry if I've posted any comments here which have angered you. I also hope I have not insulted or otherwise offended Michael Neradkov, or any other participant of the Scalemodels forum, which has been an excellent source of images and other useful information. I hope you will accept my apologies. I can only say (as I've said before) that it might be helpful if the writings of Vakhlamov and Orlov were available in English, although it does seem that these sources still do not completely remove doubt from the minds of those posting on the Russian forum, so perhaps I expect too much.While I'm in the mood for apologies, I'm especially ashamed to admit that I did not compliment Massimo Tessitori in my previous message. Massimo is truly a leader in expanding the knowledge of this subject for those of us whose first (only?) language is English. Thank you, Massimo! John John, no need to apologize, please! You seemed to be defending EP too much to my taste, so I got "excited" a bit. Yes, credit to EP where credit is due-sparking much more interest among Western modelers. However, let me remind you that he banned Massimo from vvs site and caused that knowledgeable Russians such as M.Neradkov, I.Grinberg, A.Ruchkovskyi, stopped contributing. Both Massimo's and Neradkov's "problem" was they dared to challenge EP's "semi-god" authority. But it was on either solid ground or "educated curiosity". You pointed to a bigger problem than EP's so-called "research". It is (and please don't take it personally!) our ignorance and laziness. Language bareer cann't be a factor in obtaining more information if you're really interested in the subject. If you really want to single out people who have done most for VVS colors research "globally" as to speak they are Vakhlamov (RIP) and Orlov. And they work is going to be published in English. Timeframe unknown but they're working on it very seriously. Cheers, Mario Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dragonlance Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 I was going to sit this one out, but after reading this: http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Forum/showthread...action=lastpost and seeing photos of actual control samples (etalons) posted by Mr. Akanihin: http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=TsfbGA0 http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=TsfcDrr (note that I'm still waiting for Mr. Pilawsky to post pictures of his actual chips/documents/etc, and I follow his site since it was started) Do I have to tell you why I believe that Mr. Pilawsky is wrong and Mr. Akanihin is right? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Learstang Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 I was going to sit this one out, but after reading this:http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Forum/showthread...action=lastpost and seeing photos of actual control samples (etalons) posted by Mr. Akanihin: http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=TsfbGA0 http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=TsfcDrr (note that I'm still waiting for Mr. Pilawsky to post pictures of his actual chips/documents/etc, and I follow his site since it was started) Do I have to tell you why I believe that Mr. Pilawsky is wrong and Mr. Akanihin is right? Those samples are over 60 years old. In one of the pictures, I can see where one of the etalons has been stained. At this point, how accurate are they? I presume they haven't been kept in a climate-controlled environment for these past 61 years. I have 15-year old models where the paint has changed significantly over the years. Admittedly these are model enamels and not industrial paints, but I think you get my point. And the Albom Nakrosak chips are from 1948 - how similar are they to paints from 1942 or 1943? Please know that I take no sides in this matter - neither Pro-Pilawskii nor Anti-Pilawskii. I'm simply interested in trying to find out some reasonably accurate approximations of VVS GPW colours. Learstang Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dragonlance Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Look, on the one side you have a person who apart of the website and a book has shown nothing but his texts (no pics/scans) and threatens you with a lawsuit if you try to discuss them; on the other side you have a person who has official paint samples and paint mixes and isn't afraid to post pictures/scans of them and isn't afraid to discuss them. Take your pick. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
klesnik Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 (edited) Hi Learsting, :) According to scalemodels.ru experts, “Albom Nakrasok†is the most reliable source for Soviet WWII colours. This claim is primarily propagated by A. Akanihin who is also the producer of AKAN modeling paints. There is a conflict of interest – since many paints in his range are based on Albom chips, Akanihin will naturally defend authenticity of the Albom. But, Akanihin is also a modeler, enthusiast and researcher himself. His interests in this case are not only material. He worked closely with Orlov when he defined his paints and according to him the Albom is endorsed by Orlov. In my opinion, Albom is an important, official document and as such can not be dismissed in any serious research. It doesn’t matter if particular chip is stained or if all of them are aged. It doesn’t matter if particular paint sample preserved on a wartime wreck shows different shade. Historian must start his research with official documents – if they exist, and in this case, fortunately, relevant documents do exist. Two photos posted above show paint etalons (prototypes), can you ask for more? Is 1948 a concern? Yes, but minor for following reasons: • Paints are referred by their original codes. • My guess is that change in paint appearance would result in different code • How I understand the title, Albom is listing paints that were still in production • Aviation paints we are interested in were less than 10 years in production, they were still new technology IMHO aging is not a concern for following reasons: • In galleries all over the world we can admire oil paintings made by Italian and Dutch masters 400-500 years ago. • Paint chip is actually well protected between the paper pages. Much better protected than wartime wreck sample that was recovered from mud or sea water after 50 years. Or, much better than paint sample that was exposed to the elements in front of a museum for decades. • Only real danger for Albom chips were sweaty fingers. I hope that the Albom was forgotten or inaccessible for decades. The question is: Are there any alternatives to “Albom†and AKAN paints? Erik Pilawskii’s interpretation of WWII VVS colours is based on paints that he saw on museum planes (Monino museum) in 1990-ies. Do you believe that Monino planes were painted in authentic colours at that time? FYI all WWII planes from Monino collection were repainted in 2004 with DuPont paints. Another source in Eric’s research is his own collection of authentic paint chips. This collection would be best described as “obscureâ€. It is up to Erik to start using his collection properly or stop referring to it. It is not necessary to show photos of his precious samples. Descriptions like “white piece of fabric from Zlin 526 (reg SP-XXX) which crushed in 197X. Fabric sample recovered from junkyard at X….. Airfield in 199X.†would do the job. I had to mention E. Pillawski again, only to show that his sources were less reliable and relevant than “Albom Nakrasokâ€. Bottom Line: Albom is currently the most reliable source and AKAN paints are currently the most authentic paints on the market. Cheers, KL P.S. I have nothing against Eric Pilawskii personally. I honestly admire his enthusiasm and hard work he has invested in his research. I appreciate all information he made available at his web site. I would gladly discuss with him errors I found. Edited October 8, 2009 by klesnik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Learstang Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 KL, thank you for you well-written response. It sounds like the Albom Nakrasok may be the best thing we have going as far as VVS colours. Your arguments for its authenticity are compelling. I shall regard it as a very good primary source and will probably buy some of Mr. Akanahin's paints. Dragonlance, calm down! You didn't answer any of my questions and seemed to take them personally. This isn't life or death - THEY'RE ONLY COLOURS! If you've got something personally against Mr. Pilawskii, take it out on him, not me. As I indicated in my previous post, I don't have any horses in this particular race. Learstang Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dragonlance Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Dragonlance, calm down! You didn't answer any of my questions and seemed to take them personally. This isn't life or death - THEY'RE ONLY COLOURS! If you've got something personally against Mr. Pilawskii, take it out on him, not me. As I indicated in my previous post, I don't have any horses in this particular race.Learstang Learstang, where exactly did I get excited? How did I take it out on you?!? You were shown the pictures (in the whole thread), you asked a question, I merely replied that I trust the opinion (and colors) of a person that posts some evidence for his work and is willing to discuss them over someone who doesn't. But in the end, you pay for your kits and you build them for yourself, and it falls to you to choose how to paint them. And that was the meaning of my post. No more, no less. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Learstang Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 (edited) Learstang, where exactly did I get excited? How did I take it out on you?!?You were shown the pictures (in the whole thread), you asked a question, I merely replied that I trust the opinion (and colors) of a person that posts some evidence for his work and is willing to discuss them over someone who doesn't. But in the end, you pay for your kits and you build them for yourself, and it falls to you to choose how to paint them. And that was the meaning of my post. No more, no less. "... and it falls to you to choose how to paint them. And that was the meaning of my post. No, more, no less." Perhaps, but I would've been more receptive if you hadn't started off with "Look" as in "Look, you idiot" or something to that effect. That sort of set the tone for your post as far as I was concerned. I may have misintrepreted the tone, but I don't think so. Learstang Edited October 8, 2009 by Learstang Quote Link to post Share on other sites
klesnik Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Look, on the one side you have a person who apart of the website and a book has shown nothing but his texts (no pics/scans) and threatens you with a lawsuit if you try to discuss them; on the other side you have a person who has official paint samples and paint mixes and isn't afraid to post pictures/scans of them and isn't afraid to discuss them.Take your pick. Dragonlance, Well said. Short and effective. And it's true. Cheers, KL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Learstang Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 (edited) Dragonlance,Well said. Short and effective. And it's true. Cheers, KL It may be true and short, but Dragonlance's "response" was not well said and its effectiveness can be judged by my response. It didn't answer squat about my reasonable questions except to offer a testy response. Where I'm from, you don't start off a response to a question by saying "Look" - it's considered rude. Your response, in contrast, KL, answered my questions. There is a difference. Learstang Edited October 9, 2009 by Learstang Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sakai Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 KL, Well done. It's very interesting that Erik is going to publish his analysis of "Albom" now, 5 years after his book was published. This material was known, and accessible!, before he started his "research". The criticism, he's so much disgusted with in his latest post on vvs site, is not recent, as he's trying to make us believe. It's been going on for quite some time so I'm curious what he, as a "noted author and researcher" has been doing for the past 5 years. Mario Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Learstang Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 KL,Well done. It's very interesting that Erik is going to publish his analysis of "Albom" now, 5 years after his book was published. This material was known, and accessible!, before he started his "research". The criticism, he's so much disgusted with in his latest post on vvs site, is not recent, as he's trying to make us believe. It's been going on for quite some time so I'm curious what he, as a "noted author and researcher" has been doing for the past 5 years. Mario Mario, perhaps we should wait and see what Mr. Pilawskii has to say. Better late than never. I for one am interested. However, it is interesting how this thread, which started out as a discussion of VVS colours, has now turned into another rererendum on Erik Pilawskii's work. Perhaps that's unavoidable. Learstang Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sakai Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Mario, perhaps we should wait and see what Mr. Pilawskii has to say. Better late than never. I for one am interested. However, it is interesting how this thread, which started out as a discussion of VVS colours, has now turned into another rererendum on Erik Pilawskii's work. Perhaps that's unavoidable.Learstang Definitely. I just wanted to express my thought. If you look at the bigger picture though it's totally unavoidable to discuss VVS colors without involving Pilawskii's work. Cheers, Mario Quote Link to post Share on other sites
feddawg Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 All in all this seems to be the staus quo for research on aircraft colors in the internet age. All the "ground breaking" works on the Luftwaffe, IJAF, and IJNAF from the 1960's have long been superceeded and while there are still discoveries bring made the uproars in those genres seem minor. The "trusted sources" seem to be more clearly defined for those and the bantering on the internet does not seem to be as personalitly driven as it is with VVS colors. While I don't feel his work is a totally useless volume, the majority of forum discussions about his work are on the faults contained and I have seen little or nothing stating what he got right which leaves me with a $70 paperweight that I don't feel confident to use as a research tool. I see myself as a modeler first, who likes to do a little researching to ensure that the colors I put on my models is accurate but the digging I do on VVS subjects seems to lead to quicksand in most cases. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Learstang Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Definitely. I just wanted to express my thought.If you look at the bigger picture though it's totally unavoidable to discuss VVS colors without involving Pilawskii's work. Cheers, Mario Yes, that seems to be the case. And I also agree that Mr. Lesnikov's post regarding the Albom was well-done and answered my questions. Since this book is so important, why doesn't somebody publish a new copy of it? I'd be glad to buy one even if it's in Russian. Since the book was published in 1948, hasn't товарищ Stalin's copyright run out by now? Learstang Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Britaholic Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 All in all this seems to be the staus quo for research on aircraft colors in the internet age. All the "ground breaking" works on the Luftwaffe, IJAF, and IJNAF from the 1960's have long been superceeded and while there are still discoveries bring made the uproars in those genres seem minor. The "trusted sources" seem to be more clearly defined for those and the bantering on the internet does not seem to be as personalitly driven as it is with VVS colors. While I don't feel his work is a totally useless volume, the majority of forum discussions about his work are on the faults contained and I have seen little or nothing stating what he got right which leaves me with a $70 paperweight that I don't feel confident to use as a research tool. I see myself as a modeler first, who likes to do a little researching to ensure that the colors I put on my models is accurate but the digging I do on VVS subjects seems to lead to quicksand in most cases. The way I look at it, the only complete reference book that I have is the Eric Pilawskii book, therefore it is the one I shall use. If a complete works comes out that is more accurate then I shall buy it, and use it, until then I shall be consistantly innacurate ! Building models is a hobby, it is relaxing and it is fun, and while I like to be as accurate as possible it is not a life and death issue. Cheers Den Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sakai Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 The way I look at it, the only complete reference book that I have is the Eric Pilawskii book, therefore it is the one I shall use.If a complete works comes out that is more accurate then I shall buy it, and use it, until then I shall be consistantly innacurate ! Building models is a hobby, it is relaxing and it is fun, and while I like to be as accurate as possible it is not a life and death issue. Cheers Den Den, Provided we strictly focus on VVS coloration then EP's book can hardly be elevated to a "complete reference book" status. It's also far from being the "only" one. Again strictly speaking about English language publications there is another one you should be aware of "Colors of Falcons" by Jiri Hornat&Bob Migliardi published by Iliad Designs, Canada, 2006. This information might spark you curiosity, at least. All said you are fully entitled to build and paint your VVS models however you wish. But please don't think that some of us who strive for improved accuracy are taking this as a matter of "life and death" and that is not hobby for us or somehow less fun and relaxing. Cheers, Mario Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chuck1945 Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 I am entering into this rather late, but I find it quite interesting since I have the Colors of Falcons book, and, when I used some data from it a couple of years ago to pose a question (here I believe), the book was critized as having many errors and Eric's work was the example used as the 'right' one. Times appear to have changed. also Mario, I would also suggest that Britaholic's use of the term 'complete reference' is meant not so much in terms of how accurate it is or isnt, but rather that it is a single volume that attempted to completely cover the subject of GPW VVS fighter aircraft camouflage. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
klesnik Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) It's very interesting that Erik is going to publish his analysis of "Albom" now, 5 years after his book was published.This material was known, and accessible!, before he started his "research". The criticism, he's so much disgusted with in his latest post on vvs site, is not recent, as he's trying to make us believe. It's been going on for quite some time so I'm curious what he, as a "noted author and researcher" has been doing for the past 5 years. Mario Erik didn’t disappear completely after his book was published: In 2008 Erik participated in replica Yak-3 repainting: http://www.white-100.com/index.html More on Erik’s role at: http://www.white-100.com/3.html Complete text from Aeroplane Monthly magazine at: http://www.white-100.com/resources/Aeroplane_Feb_2009.pdf Erik Pilawski participates in Pe-2 restoration at Norsk Luftfartsmuseum (Norwegian Air Force Museum): http://www.luftfart.museum.no/Engelsk/Rest...n/petlyakov.htm More Pe-2 restoration photos at http://www.toredgarolsen.net/petlyprosjekt.htm Erik posted many additional Monthly Feature pages in last few years. For example: • Meine Doodle - conspiracy theory in which some Soviet wrecks as seen on e-bay photos were actually repainted by Germans • Manchurian influence - theory in which Spanish Civil War and Halkin-Gol camouflage schemes influenced 1941 schemes (again as seen on e-bay photos) • Comments on Pe-8 camouflage schemes – his old theory in which A2nd nitrocellulose varnishes were used on metal planes • And so on….. In first two examples his wording does imply that those are only theories (propositions) that he can not proof. His third claim Eric supports with material evidence from Pe-2 structures (“structures†means wrecks he studied in Norway). As usual, Erik doesn’t provide any photos or details of those “structuresâ€. Some of his Monthly Features are useful, others are amusing weather you agree or disagree with his theories. I regularly visit his website looking for new Monthly Feature. BTW, I have a lot of troubles with Erik’s flamboyant English: firstly instead of first, thusly instead of thus, structure instead of wreck, many French words (appliqué), etc. What do native English speakers say about Erik’s language? Cheers, KL Disclaimer: this post is not directed against E. Pillawski personally. All info posted above is in public domain. Edited October 10, 2009 by klesnik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sakai Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 OMG! ..."military historian"... ..."definitive book Soviet Air Force Fighters..." what are these people smoking? Mario Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Britaholic Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Den,Provided we strictly focus on VVS coloration then EP's book can hardly be elevated to a "complete reference book" status. It's also far from being the "only" one. Again strictly speaking about English language publications there is another one you should be aware of "Colors of Falcons" by Jiri Hornat&Bob Migliardi published by Iliad Designs, Canada, 2006. This information might spark you curiosity, at least. All said you are fully entitled to build and paint your VVS models however you wish. But please don't think that some of us who strive for improved accuracy are taking this as a matter of "life and death" and that is not hobby for us or somehow less fun and relaxing. Cheers, Mario Hi Mario, the term complete reference book was used to describe not only colouration but history, plans, diagrams, photos, in short everything you need in one reference. I certainly would not be as interested in Soviet stuff if I didn't happen to pick up Eric's book in our local bookshop, this fired up my enthusiasm for the subject. As to Colours of the Falcons I have searched for it quite a lot and have given up, it is truly extinct, dead as a dodo, an ex book, it is not even mentioned on Iliads own website. Unless it is re printed I give up. Cheers Den Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Learstang Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Hi Mario, the term complete reference book was used to describe not only colouration but history, plans, diagrams, photos, in short everything you need in one reference. I certainly would not be as interested in Soviet stuff if I didn't happen to pick up Eric's book in our local bookshop, this fired up my enthusiasm for the subject.As to Colours of the Falcons I have searched for it quite a lot and have given up, it is truly extinct, dead as a dodo, an ex book, it is not even mentioned on Iliads own website. Unless it is re printed I give up. Cheers Den It's not dead yet. Den, you might try this site (if you haven't already): http://www.christian-schmidt-fachbuchhandl...2f53ae4de9e34a0. I just ordered a copy, and Herr Schmidt tells me he'll be able to obtain a copy and ship it in 4 weeks. We'll see. Hopefully I didn't order the last one. Good luck! Learstang Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Massimo Tessitori Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) Hi all Yes, that seems to be the case. And I also agree that Mr. Lesnikov's post regarding the Albom was well-done and answered my questions. Since this book is so important, why doesn't somebody publish a new copy of it? I'd be glad to buy one even if it's in Russian. Since the book was published in 1948, hasn't товарищ Stalin's copyright run out by now?Learstang Important... important for some dozens of modelers, I fear. About publishing a new edition: I suppose that it's difficult, if those paints are no longer in production. To make such a book, one should simulate them with other paints... as Akan, if they're made accurately on the base of these old chips. But this wouldn't change things too much. While I'm in the mood for apologies, I'm especially ashamed to admit that I did not compliment Massimo Tessitori in my previous message. Massimo is truly a leader in expanding the knowledge of this subject for those of us whose first (only?) language is English. Thank you, Massimo!John Thank you John. Massimo Edited October 10, 2009 by Massimo Tessitori Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Britaholic Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 It's not dead yet. Den, you might try this site (if you haven't already): http://www.christian-schmidt-fachbuchhandl...2f53ae4de9e34a0. I just ordered a copy, and Herr Schmidt tells me he'll be able to obtain a copy and ship it in 4 weeks. We'll see. Hopefully I didn't order the last one. Good luck!Learstang I did see that site but was a bit hesitant to order from them as my credit card has already done a tour of the USA and Brazil without me ! But if you have spoken to them and they sound legit then I will give it a go. Cheers Den Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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