Colours VVS WW II

[Learstang]

So where does this leave the IL-2's - AMT-7 undersides, AMT-4 and AMT-6 topsides? Were the AII paints ever used on production IL-2's? Do the AMT paints apply for the IL-2's from their entry into service in the spring of 1941 (shortly before Barbarossa)? Exactly what colours were used for the so-called three-colour schemes - AMT-7 undersides, AMT-4, AMT-12, and what for the brown (or tan colour) - A-21? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Learstang

[dragonlance]

So where does this leave the IL-2's - AMT-7 undersides, AMT-4 and AMT-6 topsides? Were the AII paints ever used on production IL-2's? Do the AMT paints apply for the IL-2's from their entry into service in the spring of 1941 (shortly before Barbarossa)? Exactly what colours were used for the so-called three-colour schemes - AMT-7 undersides, AMT-4, AMT-12, and what for the brown (or tan colour) - A-21? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Learstang

I don't know about the earliest a/c, but being all-metal, A-18f and A-19f come into play.

Then the progression:

AMT-4/AMT-6 over AMT-7

then the three-tone

AMT-4/AMT-12/AMT-1 (A-21) over AMT-7

check the text in the link,

"As you know, in July 1943 camouflage military service has developed a new instruction on camouflage aircraft. According to the manual introduces a new" gray-gray camouflage for fighters and two-color and tri-color camouflage for ground-attack planes and bombers. But what is most interesting, the technical specifications paints AMT-1 and A-21M (analog AMT-1 for coloring metal surfaces) have been changed. And these colors have changed color from dirty sand on a light brown. "

www.scalemodelworld.net/ygw8a4h

and in the end the fighter camo

AMT-11/AMT-12 over AMT-7

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi All,

I don't know about the earliest a/c, but being all-metal, A-18f and A-19f come into play.

Then the progression:

AMT-4/AMT-6 over AMT-7

then the three-tone

AMT-4/AMT-12/AMT-1 (A-21) over AMT-7

check the text in the link,

"As you know, in July 1943 camouflage military service has developed a new instruction on camouflage aircraft. According to the manual introduces a new" gray-gray camouflage for fighters and two-color and tri-color camouflage for ground-attack planes and bombers. But what is most interesting, the technical specifications paints AMT-1 and A-21M (analog AMT-1 for coloring metal surfaces) have been changed. And these colors have changed color from dirty sand on a light brown. "

www.scalemodelworld.net/ygw8a4h

and in the end the fighter camo

AMT-11/AMT-12 over AMT-7

I am very happy that so wide progress has ben made on this topic in English. Thanks to all, in particular, to KL and Mario.

Now I would suggest another theme: the contrast of the camouflage visible on photos of green/black planes differs very much on the time.

On late 1941 planes (as MiG-3 and early Yak-1 and LaGG-3) the contrast between bands is much lower than on later planes.

On Yaks, in particular: there are some factory photos of Yak 7/9 that suggest a gloss black on a light color (in particular, the photos of Yak-7DI and Yak 7-37 that can be found on the book on Yaks of Yefim Gordon and on many other sources; the image at pag.156 of EP's book).

In part, this could be explained hypotizing that early planes were painted green, then oversprayed with thinned black, while later planes were painted with separate bands of green and full black; but this still looks insufficient to explain some images with extreme contrast.

On Ep's book, pag187, the image of such a Yak-9 is explained as a sothern camo of light brown and ochre. The scheme is compatible with the AMT-11/12, but the darker shade looks nearly black.

On pag.163 of the book of EP, a strongly contrasted camo is visible on Yak-7s. (explained as AII black and green).

On the other hand, at pag.155 of the same book, we see that the black outline of a red star is clearly darker than the black band on which it was overposed. Is it possible that they utilized two different shades of black, one quickly fading for the camo, and a much stronger one for the markings?

Any ideas?

Massimo

[Learstang]

Thank you for the information, dragonlance! That pretty much confirms what I suspected.

Learstang

[klesnik]

Thank you for the information, dragonlance! That pretty much confirms what I suspected.

Learstang

Hi Learstang,

Camouflage schemes should have developed as dragonlance proposed:

1. Il-2 made before the GPW were painted green top - light blue bottom (May 1940 scheme). Most likely A-18 and A-19 glft paints were used.
   
2. Summer (???) 1941 to Mid-1943 black and green over light blue.
   
3. Mid-1943 to winter 1944/45 AMT-1, AMT-4 and AMT-12 over AMT-7. Two schemes were in use.
   
4. From Winter 1944/45 Two Gray "fighter scheme" (AMT-11, AMT-12 and AMT-7)
   

AMT paints replaced A-18 and A-19 probably when Il-2 became mixed construction airplane. Some elements of wing were made of wood as early as summer 1941. Metal and wooden rear fuselages were both made till mid-1942. From mid-1942 only wooden fuselages were made.

Cheers, :D

KL

Edited October 18, 2009 by klesnik

[Kari Lumppio]

...

were special type of paint called "glyphtalevye" in Russian, I learned they were based on "alkyd resins", base to make polyester so I dare to call them "polyester paints"

Hei!

Glyphtalevye/gliftalevye (Глифталевые) paints are based on glyptal resin*. Glyptal resin is alkyd resin**. Soviet painting handsbooks do differentiate glyptal and polyester resins, glyptal resin being class ГФ (GF) and polyester resin ПЭ (PE). See for example this page - scroll down to the table for paragraph 6:

http://www.vch.ru/cgi-bin/guide.cgi?table_...how&id=4103

(about the first hit searching with word glyptal and narrowing the language for Russian only in AltaVista search engine)

I don't know what would be correct in the world of chemistry but I think gliftalevye paints could be called glyptal or alkyd rather than polyesters. They do use different thinners too (acetone for polyesters, xylol, "solvent", "benzine", toluene etc for glyptals). BTW DuPont automotive paint line also had both nitrocellulose (Duco) and alkyd paints (Dulux) even before the WW2. See:

http://www2.dupont.com/Heritage/en_US/rela...pics/dulux.html

It is my understanding that much of the Soviet paint chemistry came from USA in pre-war times. And fact is that aviation finishes used painting materials and methods first developed for automotive industry. Only colours and luster requirement differed if even those.

Albom Nakrasok (1948) has at least one primer indentified as gliftalevye and that is No 138 - a red brown matt paint. See:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_37VdbHCEOKU/SnRVPq3h...WEM%20ALG-5.jpg

In some texts this primer goes under name "grunt M-138".

There has also been a lot of arguing about using AII laquers (nitrocellulose) on metal surfaces. The Soviet era metal painting handbook(s) I have state that one serious drawback for nitrocellulose laquers is their poor adhesion to metal surfaces! Therefore nitro laquers have to painted on either glyptal or phenol primers. This should of course be true for aviation metal materials. So blank statement that AII- or AMT- paints cannot be found on Soviet aircraft metal surfaces is not true (yes, I am pro Pilawskii on this issue). Also the DuPont -link above mentions alkyd (Dulux) paint being used as primer for nitro paints (Duco).

I would also remind that the MiG-3 metal empennage at Vesivehmaa aviation museum did have green-coloured primer under the light blue topcoat! This could be a case where some A-xxФ - glyptal - paint has been used as primer for a light blue nitro topcoat. I quote my October 23th, 1998 posting at r.m.s-forum:

"The MiG-3 at Vesivehmaa uses green FS34130 for upperside camoflage and also as primer for all metal areas. For example interiors of stabilizer and also on exterior under the light blue FS35352. "

This is all I have for this particular topic now.

Cheers,

Kari

See for example answers.com

* "Glyptal resin" is "A phthalic anhytxride glycerol made from an emulsion of an alkyd resin; used in lacquers and insulation."

** "Alkyd resin" is "A class of adhesive resins made from unsaturated acids and glycerol."

[Learstang]

Hi Learstang,

Camouflage schemes should have developed as dragonlance proposed:

1. Il-2 made before the GPW were painted green top - light blue bottom (May 1940 scheme). Most likely A-18 and A-19 glft paints were used.
   
2. Summer (???) 1941 to Mid-1943 black and green over light blue.
   
3. Mid-1943 to winter 1944/45 AMT-1, AMT-4 and AMT-12 over AMT-7. Two schemes were in use.
   
4. From Winter 1944/45 Two Gray "fighter scheme" (AMT-11, AMT-12 and AMT-7)
   

AMT paints replaced A-18 and A-19 probably when Il-2 became mixed construction airplane. Some elements of wing were made of wood as early as summer 1941. Metal and wooden rear fuselages were both made till mid-1942. From mid-1942 only wooden fuselages were made.

Cheers,

KL

Thank you for the additional information, KL! The "3-colour" scheme I was aware of, however you say two schemes were used. Did these involve the same paints, but different patterns? You also say the fighter-type scheme was used (with the two grays) - where is this information from - Vakhlamov and Orlov? As far as structure goes, I'm of the opinion that more arrows were made with metal wings than is generally supposed. I base this on the increasing amount of aluminium received via Lend-Lease from the USA from 1944 onwards, and from Sergei Ilyushin's strongly expressed desire for all IL-2's to switch to the metal covered wings as quickly as possible (they were lighter and more resistant to damage). What do you think of this and do you know if the zavoda records indicate when and if the change was made to metal wings? The IL-2 book by Yefim Gordon and Sergei Komissarov, for example, is vague on this.

Learstang

[Kari Lumppio]

Hi All,

...

Now I would suggest another theme: the contrast of the camouflage visible on photos of green/black planes differs very much on the time.

On late 1941 planes (as MiG-3 and early Yak-1 and LaGG-3) the contrast between bands is much lower than on later planes.

...

Hello!

I don't know how much weight should be given for the contrast differencies of green/black camouflage seen on black&white photos. As a comparison Finnish AF used the same green/black camouflage and introduced it earlier than Soviets. In photos of FinnAF planes (plenty!) the contrast seen on photos can be almost anything: from almost non-existant to very stark. Age, luster, environmental effects, dust, light angle and of course the actual paint materials used do affect the contrast. I believe we should try to avoid overanalysing photographic material.

What concerns the Vesivehmaa MiG-3 parts there are parts from at least two different airframes. The greens are clearly different on the green/light blue and black/green upperside planes. Likely even different paints.

One thing to consider is the painting order. A Soviet handbook for wooden aircraft desing "Projektirovanie derevjannyh samoljetov", page 355 (NKAP SSSR, Moskva, 1945) says that in the grey-grey scheme the dark grey AMT-12 was painted on first! I do remember reading in a Soviet veteran interview, I think , that the colour on their planes was green painted on black. If this indeed was the case the colours and their contrast might look very different from the black over green -one. The handbook above gives the AMT-4 green as the first painted layer (overall), though.

Regards,

Kari

[dragonlance]

Thank you for the additional information, KL! The "3-colour" scheme I was aware of, however you say two schemes were used. Did these involve the same paints, but different patterns? You also say the fighter-type scheme was used (with the two grays) - where is this information from - Vakhlamov and Orlov? As far as structure goes, I'm of the opinion that more arrows were made with metal wings than is generally supposed. I base this on the increasing amount of aluminium received via Lend-Lease from the USA from 1944 onwards, and from Sergei Ilyushin's strongly expressed desire for all IL-2's to switch to the metal covered wings as quickly as possible (they were lighter and more resistant to damage). What do you think of this and do you know if the zavoda records indicate when and if the change was made to metal wings? The IL-2 book by Yefim Gordon and Sergei Komissarov, for example, is vague on this.

Learstang

Different patterns.

The 1943 schemes

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2589/il21943schemes.jpg

the 1945 one

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/1600/il21945scheme.jpg

Those are NKAP drawings from often mentioned series of M-Hobby articles by Vakhlamov/Orlov and can be found here:

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewto...54_start_0.html

[John Thompson]

John, here's my rough translation of the MK monograph.

60kB RAR file with .rtf files, numbered by original page (str1 is the front cover).

Translation by Google translator, I just can't find the free time to clean it up.

http://rapidshare.com/files/294249021/AiK_...lation.rar.html

alternative link

http://depositfiles.com/files/ha6ta1n50

Thanks very much! Now I just need to buy a WinRAR licence, and I've finally got my wish!

Best regards;

John

[Learstang]

Different patterns.

The 1943 schemes

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2589/il21943schemes.jpg

the 1945 one

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/1600/il21945scheme.jpg

Those are NKAP drawings from often mentioned series of M-Hobby articles by Vakhlamov/Orlov and can be found here:

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewto...54_start_0.html

Thank you once again, dragonlance! I actually have those drawings from a copy of the M-Hobby articles by Vakhlamov and Orlov, but these are much better quality. Now if I can just work on my Russian, I can actually start reading the articles.

Learstang

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi

I would also remind that the MiG-3 metal empennage at Vesivehmaa aviation museum did have green-coloured primer under the light blue topcoat! This could be a case where some A-xxФ - glyptal - paint has been used as primer for a light blue nitro topcoat. I quote my October 23th, 1998 posting at r.m.s-forum:

"The MiG-3 at Vesivehmaa uses green FS34130 for upperside camoflage and also as primer for all metal areas. For example interiors of stabilizer and also on exterior under the light blue FS35352. "

Interesting. Is the shade of light blue identical both on metal and wooden parts? This would probably be AII light blue.

One thing to consider is the painting order. A Soviet handbook for wooden aircraft desing "Projektirovanie derevjannyh samoljetov", page 355 (NKAP SSSR, Moskva, 1945) says that in the grey-grey scheme the dark grey AMT-12 was painted on first! I do remember reading in a Soviet veteran interview, I think , that the colour on their planes was green painted on black. If this indeed was the case the colours and their contrast might look very different from the black over green -one. The handbook above gives the AMT-4 green as the first painted layer (overall), though.

Interesting and surprising. Is there an explanation for such decisions?

For the use of overall AMT-12 first: this could let to conclude that uniform grey photos of planes as Yak-3, that show a shade uncertain between light grey and dark grey, could show a weathered dark grey.

From photos, it looks that the fading of the dark grey was extremely quick, and planes with partial repainting show it as nearly black in contrast to the older dark bands that are hardly distinguishable from the light grey.

Massimo

[dragonlance]

Thanks very much! Now I just need to buy a WinRAR licence, and I've finally got my wish!

Best regards;

John

John, WinRAR is a shareware. If you don't have it, 7Zip is a freeware that manages RAR files even better than WinRAR.

http://www.7-zip.org/

[bergr]

Hello,

back to the green-green camouflage....

What we are looking here http://scalemodels.ru/modules/photo/viewca...teA&show=12 .

AMT4/4BO or AMT4 and AMT4 added some black? These colors seems to been worn isn`t it? So I don`t think, the plane is repainted.

Any thoughts?

Ron

[sakai]

"I don't know how much weight should be given for the contrast differencies of green/black camouflage seen on black&white photos. As a comparison Finnish AF used the same green/black camouflage and introduced it earlier than Soviets. In photos of FinnAF planes (plenty!) the contrast seen on photos can be almost anything: from almost non-existant to very stark. Age, luster, environmental effects, dust, light angle and of course the actual paint materials used do affect the contrast. I believe we should try to avoid overanalysing photographic material."

I just cann't agree more with this. I continue to maintain that analyzing the period pictures should only complement research of archival documents, extant samples and interviews with maintenance personnel.

"What concerns the Vesivehmaa MiG-3 parts there are parts from at least two different airframes. The greens are clearly different on the green/light blue and black/green upperside planes. Likely even different paints."

According to Russian research VVS paints were manufactured/mixed according to etalons i.e. samples of actual paint that specified the interval of acceptable shade! Physically they were cards with 2 painted (brushed, sprayed) samples, desired shade was expected to fall between them. A.Akanikhin posted some of those etalons recently on scalemodels.ru. Logically, in real life, the shade varied.

FYI research of Japanese Army AF colors maintained for decades the use of several olive green/olive khaki/khaki brown/late war brown colors i.e. unique paints until IJAAF standards were discovered and proved that it was in fact one single color and the others just variations of it!

This IJAAF standard use the same etalon principle as described above!

"One thing to consider is the painting order. A Soviet handbook for wooden aircraft desing "Projektirovanie derevjannyh samoljetov", page 355 (NKAP SSSR, Moskva, 1945) says that in the grey-grey scheme the dark grey AMT-12 was painted on first!"

This is exactly stated in Vakhlamov/Orlov work. I have no doubt that they drew from the above material and others.

Cheers,

Mario

[sakai]

Hi KL,

"[*]Il-2 made before the GPW were painted green top - light blue bottom (May 1940 scheme). Most likely A-18 and A-19 glft paints were used.

AMT paints replaced A-18 and A-19 probably when Il-2 became mixed construction airplane."

V&O are not absolutely clear about the application of "polyester" A-18/A-19. They do say they were to be used on bombers (SB-2, DB-3).

Il-2 was not a bomber per se. Regardless I personally don't believe that A-18/19 were used on it.

Cheers,

Mario

[bergr]

Regardless I personally don't believe that A-18/19 were used on it.[/color]

Cheers,

Mario

Hello Mario,

why you don`t think so?

First Il2 were allmetal like SB and DB?

[klesnik]

Hi KL,

"[*]Il-2 made before the GPW were painted green top - light blue bottom (May 1940 scheme). Most likely A-18 and A-19 glft paints were used.

AMT paints replaced A-18 and A-19 probably when Il-2 became mixed construction airplane."

V&O are not absolutely clear about the application of "polyester" A-18/A-19. They do say they were to be used on bombers (SB-2, DB-3).

Il-2 was not a bomber per se. Regardless I personally don't believe that A-18/19 were used on it.

Cheers,

Mario

Hi Mario, :)

What paints, in your opinion, were used on all-metal bombers which were made between mid-1940 and mid-1941? What paints were used on early Il-2s???

We are talking here about a significant number of planes (AFAIK, about 2,000 planes), one full year of peace-time production. Soviet aviation industry was in high gear at that time - the goal was to outproduce German aviation industry!!! Old designs were mass produced and new were introduced as quickly as possible. Hundreds of old SB and DB-3 bombers were made during this period, plus hundreds of Ar-2s and Pe-2s . Add to these more exotic types as: Yer-2, DB-7...

It should be kept in mind that bombers constituted a large part of total aircraft production (AFAIK, at least 25%).

All planes made between mid-1940 and mid-1941 were painted the same according to May 1940 scheme: dark green top and light blue bottom.

It's a fact that all Nitro paints (AII and AMT) had oil/alkyd equivalents designed specifically for metal surfaces. Why were these oil/alkyd paints developed and produced if not to be used??

Anyway, my theory is that, before the war, AII nitro paints were used only on fabric and wooden surfaces. Metal planes (including Il-2) were painted with appropriate oil/alkyd paints.

With the shift to war-time production, bombers (especially all metal) become a small fraction of total airplane production (less than 10%) so importance of alkyd/oil paints decreased and importance of AMT paints increased.

From my previous post it is clear that nitro paints were used on metal parts of mixed construction planes. IMHO that was done during the war to simplify production.

I have no information about the possible use of AMT nitro paints (or old stocks of AII paints) on all-metal planes (basically Pe-2) made during GPW. It's something that has to be proven for each individual case.

Cheers,

KL

Edited October 19, 2009 by klesnik

[feddawg]

My compliments to all contributing to this discussion. I think the last few pages have done more to clear up my understanding of VVS colors than all that I've read over the past few years. Once again a big thank you to all participating.

Cheers

Russell

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,

According to Russian research VVS paints were manufactured/mixed according to etalons i.e. samples of actual paint that specified the interval of acceptable shade! Physically they were cards with 2 painted (brushed, sprayed) samples, desired shade was expected to fall between them. A.Akanikhin posted some of those etalons recently on scalemodels.ru. Logically, in real life, the shade varied.

FYI research of Japanese Army AF colors maintained for decades the use of several olive green/olive khaki/khaki brown/late war brown colors i.e. unique paints until IJAAF standards were discovered and proved that it was in fact one single color and the others just variations of it!

This IJAAF standard use the same etalon principle as described above!

I hope that the variability of shades was not so wide to confuse olive greens and khaki browns. If the shades were so different as for Japanese planes, the fact that they were variations of one color with one catalog name is a poor consolation; as a consequence, one can simply paint models as he wants, and we are only speaking of names and chemistry of paints.

However, apart the precision in mixing colors, the fading off of some colors is noteworty in photos. Fresh repaintings of AMT-12 contrasts with the same color, aged of few months only, as dark grey on light grey. We can't neglect the interpretation of photos or let them for the codes only. The way and time of fading or darkening of color should be esteemed by photos, or, in the best of the cases, from samples that were not too exposed to weather.

Massimo

Edited October 20, 2009 by Massimo Tessitori

[dragonlance]

I hope that the variability of shades was not so wide to confuse olive greens and khaki browns. If the shades were so different as for Japanese planes, the fact that they were variations of one color with one catalog name is a poor consolation; as a consequence, one can simply paint models as he wants, and we are only speaking of names and chemistry of paints.

Hi Massimo,

I always wondered, is there any proof (documents, color photos, period photo captions) of browns in fighter camo (i.e. "South front" schemes)?

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Dragonlance,

Hi Massimo,

I always wondered, is there any proof (documents, color photos, period photo captions) of browns in fighter camo (i.e. "South front" schemes)?

Why are you asking this?

For what I know there is not any proof, and those Yaks could have a misintended amt 11/12 scheme, with an AMT-12 very fresh that looks nearly black. Probably, three months later that color will appear much much lighter.

This doesn't exclude that the appearance of some photos of supposed green/black planes are strongly contrasted and this should be explained in some way. Maybe the AMT-4 was lighter when new and darkened with ageing, as AII green and differently from AMT-6 and 12 in particular.

However one has not to ignore the appearance of photos, but has to try to explain it. For example, reading on the translations of V/O posted here, I've found:

Compared with black dope AMT-6, MK-8 and «Night» was in 10 - 14 times lower reflectance

that means that AMT-6 was not a fully black color, but a weak black (a sort of extremely dark grey): those other types of black were much darker, says the book. This explains why a black border of a star can be distinguished even on the nominally black camo band.

Massimo

Edited October 20, 2009 by Massimo Tessitori

[dragonlance]

Hi Dragonlance,

Why are you asking this?

You got me there with "fade to khaki" for a moment.

that means that AMT-6 was not a fully black color, but a weak black (a sort of extremely dark grey): those other types of black were much darker, says the book. This explains why a black border of a star can be distinguished even on the nominally black camo band.

Massimo

Well, I am a big fan of the various strengths of black over AII Green theory, since I believe that AII Dark green didn't exist except as a experimental pre-war color.

The order to repaint the existing "green over various undersides" camo with black came at a really unpleasant time, and units struggled with whatever they had, versus full-strength application at the plants.

Also, black border on the stars was probably retouched more often.

[dragonlance]

On a totally different vein, as I'm currently building a I-16 type 24, could someone post or point me to a photo of something painted with WEM AEh-9?

On scalemodels.ru Revell No.76 was suggested, based on found SB relics, but looks too blue to me.

[John Thompson]

On a totally different vein, as I'm currently building a I-16 type 24, could someone post or point me to a photo of something painted with WEM AEh-9?

On scalemodels.ru Revell No.76 was suggested, based on found SB relics, but looks too blue to me.

From somewhere I got FS 25630 as an approximate match; this is the number given in Erik Pilawskii's book. Humbrol 147 is very close to this, but slightly darker.

John