Colours VVS WW II

[John Thompson]

John:

I'm working on this right now, at least for the acrylic range. If I'm not mistaken, AKAN paints are actually produced to order in Finland, by this company:

http://www.tikkurila.com

I've just finished translating their VVS paint catalogue into English, so now at least know what's worth ordering in bulk and what isn't...

Regards,

Thanks, Guy! I'll be checking your site regularly (I already do that anyway!) for news!

John

[feddawg]

The color chart from scalemodels.ru lists Model Master 2126 as a good match for AMT 7 and using their ratio of a 70:30 mixing ratio of AMT 7 over AMT 6 black I mixed a batch very close to this as far as tone for AMT 11. The color value also seems to be acceptable. The AMT 12 that I mixed also appears close in tone to the scan. I have to agree with John however that in the majority of B&W photos the AMT 11 appears to have a lighter tonal value. At least this gives me a new benchmark to work off of.

[Dimmy]

Hi Dimmy! It's good to see you again - you are always very helpful! I'll certainly study this carefully. One thing that always puzzles me, though, is how close AMT-11 and AMT-12 are in this image. The two colours seem to be more obviously different from each other in black-and-white photos of actual aircraft.

Hello John! Thanks for kind words!

I thought what you may be interesting in next images. Here are AMT 11 and 12 chips (10 cm x 12 cm) shot from 1 meter:

And here are same color chips shot from ~ 2,5 meters:

I think what those pictures are much closer to black-and-white photos of actual aircraft you thought about. Hope those pictures from scalemodels.ru will help you a little :)

Regards,

Dmitry

images © Akanihin

[John Thompson]

Hello John! Thanks for kind words!

I thought what you may be interesting in next images. Here are AMT 11 and 12 chips (10 cm x 12 cm) shot from 1 meter:

And here are same color chips shot from ~ 2,5 meters:

I think what those pictures are much closer to black-and-white photos of actual aircraft you thought about. Hope those pictures from scalemodels.ru will help you a little :)

Regards,

Dmitry

images © Akanihin

Thanks again, Dimmy! The two images you posted help to understand the colour variation that was bothering me. These images are very helpful. Cheers!

John

[feddawg]

Hello John! Thanks for kind words!

I thought what you may be interesting in next images. Here are AMT 11 and 12 chips (10 cm x 12 cm) shot from 1 meter:

And here are same color chips shot from ~ 2,5 meters:

I think what those pictures are much closer to black-and-white photos of actual aircraft you thought about. Hope those pictures from scalemodels.ru will help you a little :)

Regards,

Dmitry

images © Akanihin

Your photos are probably one of the best illustrations of "scale effect" that I've ever seen. I think with this Im confident in the "raw" color mixes I have, I just have to determine how to lighten them for 1/72 scale.

[Eric Armstrong]

Your photos are probably one of the best illustrations of "scale effect" that I've ever seen.

It is for this reason that I am beginning to think that the WEM colors are about the right shade for these two colors.

[feddawg]

It is for this reason that I am beginning to think that the WEM colors are about the right shade for these two colors.

The WEM colors are in the ballpark as far as their contrast with the AMT 11 being slightly light. The big problem is with the AMT 12 and the green tint that it has.

[Dimmy]

Dear collegues, thank you all!

I'm glad what you found those pictures useful. Images credit goes to Mr.Akanihin who performed this test.

From the other hand, I personally selected Vallejo Model Air acrylic paints for my 9 y.o. son's one-day quick build HobbyBoss 1:72 La-7:

Maybe I'll be shot by Colour Police for this selection but I found those colors look good for "toned-down" colors for 1:72 scale.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Dimmy

[John Thompson]

Dear collegues, thank you all!

I'm glad what you found those pictures useful. Images credit goes to Mr.Akanihin who performed this test.

From the other hand, I personally selected Vallejo Model Air acrylic paints for my 9 y.o. son's one-day quick build HobbyBoss 1:72 La-7:

Maybe I'll be shot by Colour Police for this selection but I found those colors look good for "toned-down" colors for 1:72 scale.

Your son did this? In one day? I give up... Seriously, it's a great model!

What are the Vallejo numbers for the paints you used? Thanks again!

John

[Apex1701]

The WEM colors are in the ballpark as far as their contrast with the AMT 11 being slightly light. The big problem is with the AMT 12 and the green tint that it has.

Last year, as suggested by someone on the VVS forum I tried to kill the green from WEM's AMT-12 with drops of red.

Here's the end result with few drops(around 3 in my airbrush cup) for the Yak-3 and more red(around 12 drops in my cup) for the La-5FN.

Results were interesting. I plan to use more red, maybe 20 to 30 drops for my next AMT-12 painted aircraft.

Jean

[Dimmy]

Your son did this? In one day? I give up... Seriously, it's a great model!

What are the Vallejo numbers for the paints you used? Thanks again!

John

Hello John! :) Colors are Vallejo Model Air 047 and 052. I'll be interesting to hear your opinion on them :)

Offtopic: To be honest, son did glue work on this La-7 kit himself, and after that I helped him to mask cockpit and camo after his part of job was done.

Actually this La-7 kit looks good only from distance :) Here he is painting another his EasyKit - HobbyBoss' He-162A:

[John Thompson]

Hi again, Dimmy! Thanks for the suggested Vallejo acrylics numbers - I'll be sure to check these out whenever I can get to the only shop I know that has them. Best regards;

John

[Learstang]

Hello Mario and John! I've just signed up for this website in my neverending quest to find out more information about VVS colours. It seems that the only way I'm going to get to the bottom of things is to learn Russian and/or go back in time. It may be easier for me to build the time machine. As far as the posters on the ScaleModels.ru site, if they have a problem with the Modelling the Aircraft of the Soviet VVS site, why don't they get off their respective arses and join it and try to improve it. I take it more of them speak some English than members of the English Soviet VVS site speak Russian. We're all interested in the same thing, I think - trying to make better and more accurate VVS models. And by the way, everybody, the proper transliteration is Shturmovik. That at least I'm certain of (if nothing else).

Learstang

Edited October 5, 2009 by Learstang

[Apex1701]

Hi Learstang,

It seems that the only way I'm going to get to the bottom of things is to learn Russian and/or go back in time. It may be easier for me to build the time machine.

That's what I think too.

As far as the posters on the ScaleModels.ru site, if they have a problem with the Modelling the Aircraft of the Soviet VVS site, why don't they get off their respective arses and join it and try to improve it.

Well...they've done it.

There were some heated discussions. Unfortunately bad words were exchanged and ego were bruised.

The moderator had to remove/edit some posts. So Mr Pilawskii was not very happy nor were the russian modellers.

The end result was that the russian members left.

And we, the poor modellers, were left panting with no final answers.

It's a pity since the subject of VVS aviation is so fascinating.

And to add to all this the forum content was lost last year :-((

Never to be retrieved.

W're left to find our own answers and try to decipher what's OK or not.

In the end I think we should give ourselves, the modellers, the right to decide what to do and the right to be wrong.

So welcome to the club!

LOL

Jean

Edited October 5, 2009 by Apex1701

[John Thompson]

Hi Learstang! I think our frustration is shared by many of those on the Scalemodels.ru forum too, if I can believe (or understand) the instant on-line translation I get by clicking on the British flag at the top of the page. It's no wonder AMT-11 and AMT-12 are so often the subject of argument - it is hard to believe that the "official" (Albom Nakrasov) versions of these colours are what was really used, since their appearance in photos looks so different from what you expect from the "Albom", contrast-wise. This skepticism (and frustration) is apparent in the posts on Scalemodels.ru, so it's not limited to those of us who read only English. I've almost convinced myself that Humbrol 145 and 27 are approximately correct, but AMT-11 might be Humbrol 140, too, if you believe that it was less blue than Hu 145, as described and FS595'd in the "Colors of the Falcons" book by Jiri Hornat and Bob Migliardi.

If you ever get that time machine up and running, please let me know - I'd love to drag back my beloved 1956 Ford two-door...

Jean sums things up very well in his post (bon soir, Jean!) - the confrontation he mentions was quite disappointing. I don't think I've ever seen a situation where a moderator actually deleted posts by the person who "owns" the site and forum, but that's what happened. Things continued downhill when someone decided to post a poll on Scalemodels.ru with the question, "Do you believe Erik Pilawskii's research?" or words to that effect, and about 80% voted "No". I thought Erik's book was pure gold when it was first published, and it's a shame that it has been the subject of so much unsubstantiated criticism. Certainly no one else has invested the time and enthusiasm into this topic that Erik has, to the benefit of those of us in the West who are fascinated by this subject.

I hope this doesn't rub anyone the wrong way, but I think there is still an element of Cold-War-era "them versus us" thinking in some people's minds, on both sides of this subject. This isn't improved by people (with good and helpful intentions!) repeating information on Internet forums which is clearly wrong, or which slights the tremendous achievements of the Soviet aircraft industry under the most terrible conditions, such as the ongoing reference to Russian twin-engined aircraft as "Martinbombers" on ebay.de. This peculiar practice seems to go back even to the Spanish Civil War, when the I-16 was referred to by some participants as the "Boeing" (P-26!) and the Polikarpov biplanes were called "Curtisses", apparently to try to imply American government involvement in that conflict.

John

Edited October 6, 2009 by John Thompson

[Learstang]

Thank you Jean and John for your comments! I agree. I didn't realise that some Russian modellers had joined the VVS site and that there had been such a row. That's a great pity. I don't understand why people can't just leave their egos at the door, and I'm referring to all involved. All I'm trying to do now is finish up a guide on modelling the IL-2 Shturmovik, hence my interest in VVS colours. The sticking point now is, you guessed it, the colour section. I've gotten help on this section and made some changes but I didn't realise just how contentious the topic of VVS colours was. It seems like I've landed in the middle of a civil war regarding VVS paint schemes. It's hard to know who to trust when you have people saying opposite things, and always with such authority ("The Soviets always...", or "The Soviets never..."). There appear to be some people with axes to grind. John, I think you're correct about a "Cold-War" mentality, and I mention this mentality in my little book. I can understand why Russian modellers and historians are so frustrated by the ignorance, contempt, and downright lies regarding VVS aviation from many in the West, especially regarding the GPW. I can remember a thread from one site where the question was asked what the best VVS fighter was, and some idiot (a moderator, no less) posted "None". How terribly clever! I suppose this moron just thinks the Nazis all committed suicide on the Eastern Front and that D-Day won the war. Getting back to colours, John, do you think that Extra Dark Sea Grey is a decent approximation of AMT-12? This isn't just an academic question as I'm currently working on an IL-2 arrow, a Yak-9M, and a B-25J that all have this colour. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Learstang

[feddawg]

It's a shame that 50 years of Cold War have made replicating accurate color schemes for aircraft of our allies from WWII so mystical. I have lurked on the VVS site for many years and followed the ARC of Erik's research going from being applauded to his vilification. What dismays me is that while he seems to have made some errors in his research I can find no concise explanation of what is sound and what is not in his book and the scalemodels.ru site seems to be more interested in making a mockery of the entire work. I have a number of VVS subjects in the works and I'm at the point where I will just make my best guess based on my resources at hand, just wish they were a little clearer.

Edited October 6, 2009 by feddawg

[Britaholic]

I've just read this thread from start to finish and find it all very disapointing, the Eric Polawskii book really raised my interest in the Soviet airforce of the GPW, the book plus the WEM Colourcoats range of paint also meant I could at last build some Soviet aircraft models.

There does seem to be a lot of conflicting information out there, in bits and pieces, on (to us in the West) obscure websites, whereas the Pilawskii book is there, it is complete, it seems to answer all the questions, is very readable, it is clear and consice.

There does not seem to be any alternative to his book, I have looked for Colours of the Eagles but it seems to be extinct.

The choice for reference seems to be either the Pilawskii book, lots of obscure foreign language websites, or ignore the Soviet side of WW2 completely until someone comes up with something better, or just build models that please yourself and look a bit like the old black and white photos !

Cheers

Den

Edited October 6, 2009 by Britaholic

[Learstang]

Feddawg and Den, I think you're right. At this point, if we want to be able to build and complete VVS models in our lifetimes, we're just going to have to go with our best guesses, weighing the different and often conflicting opinions about the colours against each other. Ultimately, if the modeller is satisfied with the result, then that's the important thing. We are, after all, the one's buying and building the models. I think absolute accuracy as regards VVS colours may be an unobtainable Holy Grail.

Learstang

[bergr]

It's hard to know who to trust when you have people saying opposite things, and always with such authority ("The Soviets always...", or "The Soviets never..."). There appear to be some people with axes to grind. John, I think you're correct about a "Cold-War" mentality, and I mention this mentality in my little book. I can understand why Russian modellers and historians are so frustrated by the ignorance, contempt, and downright lies regarding VVS aviation from many in the West, especially regarding the GPW. I can remember a thread from one site where the question was asked what the best VVS fighter was, and some idiot (a moderator, no less) posted "None". How terribly clever! I suppose this moron just thinks the Nazis all committed suicide on the Eastern Front and that D-Day won the war. Getting back to colours, John, do you think that Extra Dark Sea Grey is a decent approximation of AMT-12? This isn't just an academic question as I'm currently working on an IL-2 arrow, a Yak-9M, and a B-25J that all have this colour. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Learstang

Dear collegues,

That`s what I´m thinking too.

At first: sorry for my bad English

At second: my Russian is more than 20 years old ( I was going to school in the GDR

At present I´m a student of history. And that is my problem with Mr. Pilawskii. Never he supports his statesments by sources to proof it.

He mentiones the sources in the end of his book. But they are incomletely ( for instance M Hobby ? - at page 224). He writes against the FS number 25190 what is given by Orlov et. Vakl. for AMT 7 at page 18. He mentiones more than 100 surviving examples on page 19. But he never shows one.

He mentiones a lot of factory records. But at wich page of the these records is metioned traktorgreen or brown and so on...

Other mistakes at page 11.

AII ( A 2!) is written in Russian AИИ ( aii)

Aeh 8 is called medium grey - AЭ 8 is like aluminium paints like AII Al

look here http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxhWkSwJ

AII green ( second),AII light grey (fourth), AII alu (seventh), AII light blue (tenth) is mentioned. Also tabbacco, cream, light green and orange but AII? It is to discuss. These engaged. How is to be interpreted?

Never the less... Pilawskii`s book is not completely wrong. And it`s interesting and gives a good overview.

Edited October 6, 2009 by bergr

[John Thompson]

Feddawg and Den, I think you're right. At this point, if we want to be able to build and complete VVS models in our lifetimes, we're just going to have to go with our best guesses, weighing the different and often conflicting opinions about the colours against each other. Ultimately, if the modeller is satisfied with the result, then that's the important thing. We are, after all, the one's buying and building the models. I think absolute accuracy as regards VVS colours may be an unobtainable Holy Grail.

Learstang

I agree. I've spent 'way too much time trying to figure out what AMT-11 and -12 might really have looked like, which common sense says is impossible if you don't have access to chunks of actual airplane painted in those actual colours. Every reference I check for a FS595 match gives a different number - I've seen 4 or 5! So I've pretty much settled on Humbrol 145 and Humbrol 27; if Linden Hill starts importing Akan paints into North America, I might rethink that, but for now...

By the way, I am really thankful to Kari Lumppio for his FS595 matches for the MiG-3! At least those colours are reproducible.

John

[klesnik]

Following should be an illustration of E.Pilawskii's "research" and my attempt to show how unreliable it is.

Compare his gray Art Deco I-16 from http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/I16/artdeco-i16.php with some evidence I posted at http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_12538.html - my posts are in English. You will find more photos and two videos there!

This is the photo in question:

This is how E.Pilawskii wants you to believe that the planes were painted:

And this is how they were really painted:

Erik writes:" This collection of five I-16 Type 24 aircraft is probably the most widely published photograph of the type in all of Western literature, and yet it remains one of the most quixotic, as well. Virtually nothing more is known about the origin nor placement of these fighters.

Not true. Almost everything about the famous photo is known:

• Photo shows "Krasnaya Pyaterka" aerobatic team

• Photo was taken in August 1940

• Pilots: Lakeyev (leader), Nikolayev, Grashchenkov, Viktorov and Antonov

• Planes were M-62 powered I-16s made in October/November 1939

• Planes were painted in overall red

Nothing that Erik Pilawskii wrote about this photo is true.

It's not hard to figure out what E.Pilawskii's "research" was in this case – only a subjective interpretation of published black-and-white photo. True, red colour is hardest (or imposible) to interpret on b/w photos. Depending on light conditions, film type and filters, it could be anything between black and white.

Another irritating problem is that he throws his theories, assumptions and info from unknown/unreliable sources before the readers too easily. His text about this photo is nothing but his assumptions and misinformation. It might be very readable, but do you really believe that six planes were painted in gray just to confuse Western observers???

IMHO this case clearly shows how unreliable Erik’s “research†is.

Happy modeling,

KL

Edited October 7, 2009 by klesnik

[sakai]

"Things continued downhill when someone decided to post a poll on Scalemodels.ru with the question, "Do you believe Erik Pilawskii's research?" or words to that effect, and about 80% voted "No"."

That someone John was Michael Neradkov, owner of scalemodels.ru. Poll results show that not everybody in that community is against Pilawskii. Should you decide to run similar poll here what do you think the result will be? I bet exactly reversed.

"I thought Erik's book was pure gold when it was first published, and it's a shame that it has been the subject of so much unsubstantiated criticism"

You cann't be serious! You have several proofs right in this thread!

"Certainly no one else has invested the time and enthusiasm into this topic that Erik has, to the benefit of those of us in the West who are fascinated by this subject."

What to the world are you talking about? You sound like you never heard of Vakhlamov, Orlov, Maslov, Kotelnikov, Bykov...

Or Russians don't count? They have done that work for Russians only? These gentlemen have published quite many articles in UK, German, Spanish, French and other magazines. You knew that, didn't you? So I really don't know who has the stronger " Cold War Mentality".

Cheers,

Mario

[Learstang]

These gentlemen have published quite many articles in UK, German, Spanish, French and other magazines.

Mario, would you happen to know the specific publications?

Learstang

[Learstang]

Hi John,

This is how Holy Grail looks:

Title:

Альбом накрасок Продукции заводов главкраски МХП СССР

Approximate translation:

Album of paints made by the factories of the Directorate of paints of the Ministry of Chemical Industry of SSSR

Another Google search provides some description:

Альбом накрасок. Образцы накрасок, характеристика красок, основные

физико-малярные показатели, применение красок. М., Госхимиздат 1948. 74 с. (Главкраска МХП СССР). 1000 экз. 280 р. в пер.

Album of paints. Paint samples, characteristics, basic physical and painting indices, use of paints. State chemical publishing 1948. 74 pages (?), (Directorate of paints of MCI SSSR) published in 1000 examples. 280 words in per(intro?)

Photo above from http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewto...;&start=280

Posted by Aleksandr Akanikin aka AKAN. Aleksandr explains that he has access to one copy in a library. It’s a reference book, can’t be taken out, library scanner is A4 format and book is much larger. All photos posted by AKAN are taken with his cell.

IMHO from the information above:

• It is an important source published by officials, probably for internal use
  
• It is rather short – 74 pages!
  
• 1000 books printed is a significant number. Examples can be found in archives and libraries in Russia
  

E. Pilawskii does mention this source in his book. He refers to it as a postwar “bureaucratic exercise†and associates it with NKVD. This misinterpretation (or misunderstanding) is one of the reasons why he is criticized mercilessly on Russian forums.

Scans of the Albom are not available, but I am sure that they will appear eventually.

In meantime, you may find everything you need to know about VVS paints at scalemodels.ru forum. It’s more like a detective work, but it’s also more interesting. It would be too easy to have all answers at one place.

Cheers,

KL

KL, since this "Albom" is dated 1948, how accurate is it for the GPW? Say, 1942 or 1943, for example. I've seen the chip samples from this book on ScaleModels.ru and if they can be trusted for the GPW, that would be great (however, those chip samples would be, what, 61 years old now?). At this point, I'm not sure I trust anyone or anything when it comes to VVS colours for the GPW.

Learstang