Colours VVS WW II

[Learstang]

Hi all

Important... important for some dozens of modelers, I fear.

About publishing a new edition: I suppose that it's difficult, if those paints are no longer in production. To make such a book, one should simulate them with other paints... as Akan, if they're made accurately on the base of these old chips. But this wouldn't change things too much.

Thank you John.

Massimo

You're correct, Massimo, I don't suppose major publishers are lining up to publish the Albom Nakrasok simply because a rather small number of modellers waste their time discussing it. A shame, though. It might make my models a little more accurate, although I gave up the search for absolute accuracy long ago.

Learstang

[sakai]

You're correct, Massimo, I don't suppose major publishers are lining up to publish the Albom Nakrasok simply because a rather small number of modellers waste their time discussing it. A shame, though. It might make my models a little more accurate, although I gave up the search for absolute accuracy long ago.

Learstang

Jason,

I'd disagree that only "rather small number of modelers" is interested in discussing this topic. It has value for professional and amateur historians, restoration projects etc. For that matter I don't think this effort is a "waste of time" either. Further to what Massimo said (paints are no longer in production) we really shouldn't hastily "glorify the utmost importance" of "Albom". It is "one of the most important documents in VVS coloration research" (per one noted Russian researcher) but yet it must to considered in the context of other sources. Btw one of the only two surviving copies (as far as I know) is in St.Petersburg's archive, cann't be taken out and therefore properly photographed and/or copied (also due to the non-standard format!). Clearly its historical value (not only for plastic modelers and enthusiasts!) is being preserved and thinking about possible "reprint" would be rather naive.

"Mr.AKAN" did study this material but also many others including VVS paint etalons. I wanted to point this out because there was a similar case in the research of Japanese WWII paints. About 10 years ago paint standard with color samples (called "Kariki 117) was discovered in Japan and raised great joy among involved researchers and enthusiasts. However what still remains unknown until today is how was this material used or intended to be used! Regardless some researchers jumped into some conclusions that can be qualified as questionable. In other words the search is not over.

I'm really curious what Mr.Pilawskii is going to say in his announced article on vvs.hobbyvista. At this point I'm rather skeptical since he started so negatively-"fraud and abuse"? I don't think this is a right approach of a "military historian".

Cheers,

Mario

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi all

I'd disagree that only "rather small number of modelers" is interested in discussing this topic. It has value for professional and amateur historians, restoration projects etc. For that matter I don't think this effort is a "waste of time" either. Further to what Massimo said (paints are no longer in production) we really shouldn't hastily "glorify the utmost importance" of "Albom". It is "one of the most important documents in VVS coloration research" (per one noted Russian researcher) but yet it must to considered in the context of other sources. Btw one of the only two surviving copies (as far as I know) is in St.Petersburg's archive, cann't be taken out and therefore properly photographed and/or copied (also due to the non-standard format!). Clearly its historical value (not only for plastic modelers and enthusiasts!) is being preserved and thinking about possible "reprint" would be rather naive.

"Mr.AKAN" did study this material but also many others including VVS paint etalons.

Given the impossibility to bring home the rare manual, the only thing to do (and I suppose that is what was done by Akan) is to go into the libraty with another vast catalogue as a Federal Standard, then compare colors and photograph the chips side by side; having done this, one can:

• publish color equivalences, eventually corrected, complete with the images (typical choice for a no-profit as a webmaster or a forumite);
  
• make color chips for a new manual by using and mixing available colors (good choice for one that wants to write a new and better manual available on the market, joining the chips with other historical informations, photos and profiles);
  
• produce new colors, as Akan did; if he did this accurately, the mass of modelers don't need longer to see the old catalogue of chips with their own eyes. It is sufficient that some modelers of St.Petersburg buy the Akan paints, produce chips by them and goes to the archive to check them with the original catalogue, then inform other modelers of the result of this test by some forum.
  

In other words, once that someone checks the accuracy of the AKAN paints, that old and precious catalogue loses any further interest for us, because these paints (or equivalent of other firms) would be identical.

I don't know if I was clear enough in exposing my ideas.

Massimo

Edited October 11, 2009 by Massimo Tessitori

[Learstang]

Hi all

Given the impossibility to bring home the rare manual, the only thing to do (and I suppose that is what was done by Akan) is to go into the libraty with another vast catalogue as a Federal Standard, then compare colors and photograph the chips side by side; having done this, one can:

• publish color equivalences, eventually corrected, complete with the images (typical choice for a no-profit as a webmaster or a forumite);
  
• make color chips for a new manual by using and mixing available colors (good choice for one that wants to write a new and better manual available on the market, joining the chips with other historical informations, photos and profiles);
  
• produce new colors, as Akan did; if he did this accurately, the mass of modelers don't need longer to see the old catalogue of chips with their own eyes. It is sufficient that some modelers of St.Petersburg buy the Akan paints, produce chips by them and goes to the archive to check them with the original catalogue, then inform other modelers of the result of this test by some forum.
  

In other words, once that someone checks the accuracy of the AKAN paints, that old and precious catalogue loses any further interest for us, because these paints (or equivalent of other firms) would be identical.

I don't know if I was clear enough in exposing my ideas.

Massimo

Yes you are clear, Massimo. Let's hope someone does double-check the AKAN paints against the Albom. I'm tempted as it is to buy the paints and check them against the various sources I have - unfortunately, I don't have access to the Albom. If I do check them, I'll post my conclusions on this site.

Learstang

[dragonlance]

It is sufficient that some modelers of St.Petersburg buy the Akan paints, produce chips by them and goes to the archive to check them with the original catalogue, then inform other modelers of the result of this test by some forum.

Massimo

From scalemodels.ru forum, not by modelers but Mr. Akanihin:

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV10OJA9

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV10Pwt0

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV10QZLi

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV8XEUr

[Learstang]

From scalemodels.ru forum, not by modelers but Mr. Akanihin:

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV10OJA9

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV10Pwt0

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV10QZLi

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV8XEUr

Those colours look very close. It looks like Mr. Akanikhin has done a good job of matching the colours in the Albom.

Learstang

[sakai]

Those colours look very close. It looks like Mr. Akanikhin has done a good job of matching the colours in the Albom.

Learstang

Alexander certainly did his job well. Please be aware of the fact that he did it not ONLY use "Albom"! He researched still existing paint etalons, technical specifications, checked surviving fragments and continuously collaborated with V&O.

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,

it looks that Mr. Akanikhin has already done an excellent work. It would be interesting to know more.

At this point, who could start to write a new manual joining mainly the informations ov V/O and Akanikhin? It should be good that it was done by some accord of the original authors.

On the brief term, we could only compose some tables resuming names, equivalences and use of colors.

Massimo

Edited October 12, 2009 by Massimo Tessitori

[agboak]

Am I the only one to point out that a set of colours for 1948 may not be a wholly reliable guide for colours of 1942-45? That this document, however superb, is unlikely to be the whole story and that criticism should be a little less, well, evangelical?

[dragonlance]

Oh dear,

I forgot, I have a similar .xls table prepared by IIRC Michael_XIII (all credits to him) from scalemodels.ru.

I translated it via Google to English, worksheets are by year periods, from 1920 to 1945.

Download link:

http://rapidshare.com/files/292039525/AKAN_VVS.rar.html

[dragonlance]

Am I the only one to point out that a set of colours for 1948 may not be a wholly reliable guide for colours of 1942-45? That this document, however superb, is unlikely to be the whole story and that criticism should be a little less, well, evangelical?

Possibly, but it is *much* better than mere photo interpretation, right?

[Learstang]

Oh dear,

I forgot, I have a similar .xls table prepared by IIRC Michael_XIII (all credits to him) from scalemodels.ru.

I translated it via Google to English, worksheets are by year periods, from 1920 to 1945.

Download link:

http://rapidshare.com/files/292039525/AKAN_VVS.rar.html

It looks good, Dragonlance. Thank you (and Michael_XIII) for providing it.

Learstang

[John Thompson]

Hi,

it looks that Mr. Akanikhin has already done an excellent work. It would be interesting to know more.

At this point, who could start to write a new manual joining mainly the informations ov V/O and Akanikhin? It should be good that it was done by some accord of the original authors.

On the brief term, we could only compose some tables resuming names, equivalences and use of colors.

Massimo

Hi Massimo! My hope is that Guy Holroyd at Linden Hill Imports will proceed successfully with his intention to sell the Akan acrylics through his on-line shop. That will make it relatively easy to solve this problem.

John

[Learstang]

Hi Massimo! My hope is that Guy Holroyd at Linden Hill Imports will proceed successfully with his intention to sell the Akan acrylics through his on-line shop. That will make it relatively easy to solve this problem.

John

John, are they only acrylics, and not enamels? I don't particularly like acrylics for airbrushing - they don't seem to get along very well with my airbrush (yeah, cleans up with water, my ***!).

Learstang

[agboak]

I'm no fan of the excessive claims made for the photo interpretations, but that's hardly the whole of the book, is it? The continual rain of criticism, at every passing opportunity, seems more like the pursuit of heretics than legitimate criticism and open discussion.

I rather suspect that the critics have good points, but do think it is time for a proper case to be made, not just knee-jerk attacking those straying beyond the party line.

[dragonlance]

I rather suspect that the critics have good points, but do think it is time for a proper case to be made, not just knee-jerk attacking those straying beyond the party line.

It is merely enough to see changes in I-16 Art deco article on VVS page to see where the book was wrong.

Other points (debated even prior to publishing) are:

- dismissal of use of silver/aluminium paint for whole a/c, undersides or markings (aka. The great finnish silver conspiracy)

- forcing AII paints well before their introduction and well after their replacement by AMT paints

- forcing the use of AII paints on all-metal aircraft

etc etc

It really isn't new stuff, there was a lot of forum fighting on VVS site. There was even a topic here a few months ago. Hell, even M. Tessitori was banned from VVS forum after disagreeing with "the book".

[John Thompson]

John, are they only acrylics, and not enamels? I don't particularly like acrylics for airbrushing - they don't seem to get along very well with my airbrush (yeah, cleans up with water, my ***!).

Learstang

Go back to post No.20, on page 1 of this thread, by "Linden Hill". He says:

"I'm working on this right now, at least for the acrylic range. If I'm not mistaken, AKAN paints are actually produced to order in Finland, by this company:

http://www.tikkurila.com

I've just finished translating their VVS paint catalogue into English, so now at least know what's worth ordering in bulk and what isn't..."

Perhaps there are fewer shipping restrictions on acrylic paints, versus enamels? Frankly, I'd prefer enamels, too.

Edit - I just checked at Linden Hill, and on his Twitter page, Guy says he might possibly have the acrylics in stock this week.

John

Edited October 12, 2009 by John Thompson

[bergr]

Perhaps there are fewer shipping restrictions on acrylic paints, versus enamels? Frankly, I'd prefer enamels, too.

John

I´ve send bottles of acrylic and enamels to NY. No problems, but there were only three bottles.

Some colors are only available as enamels like A18f, A19f, 3B, AMT1 and A21.

Cheers Ron

[Apex1701]

Alexander certainly did his job well. Please be aware of the fact that he did it not ONLY use "Albom"! He researched still existing paint etalons, technical specifications, checked surviving fragments and continuously collaborated with V&O.

To be fair to Mr.Pilawskii we should ask Mr. Akanihin the same "proofs".

The same standards should be used for every researchers who made claims.

Here are mine:

From Mr.Lesninkov in the VVS forum:

"Eric, if you are writing an article about this document, please, provide as many facts as possible – what was its purpose, context, technical details etc.

Of course high rez scans and photos would help too"

From MHolly in the VVS forum:

"Please, NO exclusive b&w pictures analysis.

Period/archival documents analysis, extant relics analysis, other documentation studies and testimonials for example are expected. Kindly state the source with proper identification so as it can be verified. I believe this is a standard for any kind of professional research and therefore a legitimate request.

Also tell us specifics of your cooperation with other researchers of this topic, naturally Russia in the first place."

I think it's important for every modeller to use his own judgement and decide by himself what's OK or not until the final word is put to writing.

Thanks.

All the best.

Jean

Edited October 12, 2009 by Apex1701

[bergr]

To be fair to Mr.Pilawskii we should ask Mr. Akanihin the same "proofs".

From Mr.Lesninkov in the VVS forum:

"Eric, if you are writing an article about this document, please, provide as many facts as possible – what was its purpose, context, technical details etc.

Of course high rez scans and photos would help too"

From MHolly in the VVS forum:

"Please, NO exclusive b&w pictures analysis.

Period/archival documents analysis, extant relics analysis, other documentation studies and testimonials for example are expected. Kindly state the source with proper identification so as it can be verified. I believe this is a standard for any kind of professional research and therefore a legitimate request.

Also tell us specifics of your cooperation with other researchers of this topic, naturally Russia in the first place."

My post is not meant to be disrespectful to anybody.

I think it's important for every modeller to use his own judgement and decide by himself what's OK or not.

All the best.

Jean

Yes, I think too.

But ...when you look on scalemodels.ru you will see samples from Albom and survival wrecks to compare with Akanpaints. I never see from Mr. Pilawskii.

To all,

I have a few questions...

The paints AMT are for use an mixed construction.

A xx for allmetal.

But how to use AE and A18/A19 paints?

Were AII paints used on mixed construction only?

Thanks a lot.

[sakai]

To be fair to Mr.Pilawskii we should ask Mr. Akanihin the same "proofs".

I did ask him and he's going to provide it. Besides he had posted quite a lot on scalemodels.ru, check it out.

I think it's important for every modeller to use his own judgement and decide by himself what's OK or not.

Well yes but based on one single source? Isn't it fair and appropriate to make him/her aware of alternative, objectively more accurate sources?

That's what's being debated.

Cheers,

Mario

[agboak]

I think it's important for every modeller to use his own judgement and decide by himself what's OK or not.

Well yes but based on one single source? Isn't it fair and appropriate to make him/her aware of alternative, objectively more accurate sources?

That's what's being debated.

Cheers,

Mario

"Alternative, objectively more accurate sources." That's not exactly impartial, is it? That's not debating: it is not presenting any kind of case, just claiming all the high ground first. It is exactly the kind of comment that makes me doubt the actual strength of the argument. If in doubt, shout louder. There's a lot of shouting going on, a lot of claiming. Where's the meat?

[Apex1701]

Hi Mario,

I think it's important for every modeller to use his own judgement and decide by himself what's OK or not.

Well yes but based on one single source? Isn't it fair and appropriate to make him/her aware of alternative, objectively more accurate sources?

That's what's being debated.

You're absolutely right.

That's why I asked for the same "standards" whether from Piliaskii or Akhanihin or other researchers too!

All the best

Jean

[sakai]

Hi Ron,

But ...when you look on scalemodels.ru you will see samples from Albom and survival wrecks to compare with Akanpaints. I never see from Mr. Pilawskii.

That's exactly the key point being discussed!

The paints AMT are for use an mixed construction.

correct, they were nitro-cellulose lacquers, they could be applied on metal surface after a special primer was used

A xx for allmetal.

right since they were enamels=oil-based paints

But how to use AE and A18/A19 paints?

AE-7,8,9,10 were enamels see above

there were equivalents or better said similar paints in nitro group of paints i.e. AII range at that time

A-18f, A-19f were special type of paint called "glyphtalevye" in Russian, I learned they were based on "alkyd resins", base to make polyester so I dare to call them "polyester paints", they were very durable but dried slowly and smelled horribly, I understand they could be used for any kind of surface

Were AII paints used on mixed construction only?

I'd say yes since AMT range was a further development for use on mixed-material designs

Cheers,

Mario

[sakai]

I think it's important for every modeller to use his own judgement and decide by himself what's OK or not.

Well yes but based on one single source? Isn't it fair and appropriate to make him/her aware of alternative, objectively more accurate sources?

That's what's being debated.

Cheers,

Mario

"Alternative, objectively more accurate sources." That's not exactly impartial, is it? That's not debating: it is not presenting any kind of case, just claiming all the high ground first. It is exactly the kind of comment that makes me doubt the actual strength of the argument. If in doubt, shout louder. There's a lot of shouting going on, a lot of claiming. Where's the meat?

Delete "objectively" and "more accurate" if it makes you feel more comfortable, fine with me. However you need to get yourself up to the speed (more-less by your own words). You won't find all that "meat" just reading this thread. You need to venture to scalemodels.ru, vvs.hobbyvista (especially now), sovietwarplanes.com. For now re-visit some "dissent" postings, particularly by KL and his links to other EP's activities. Btw Pilawskii's "expert consultation" on Yak-3 project is being discussed on scalemodels.ru now pointing out-quite credibly-that "white 100" carried just common standard 2-gray camo, not single AMT-11 gray as per Pilawskii.

Cheers,

Mario