dragonlance Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 (edited) To all,I have a few questions... The paints AMT are for use an mixed construction. A xx for allmetal. But how to use AE and A18/A19 paints? Were AII paints used on mixed construction only? Thanks a lot. To further expand on sakai's post, the way I understand VVS colors (and believe me, I learn new things almost every day:-)). Note to agboak - this info is from many books on specific a/c, Vakhlamov-Orlov VVS color monographs and scalemodels.ru site. A-18f and A-19f were to be used on all-metal aircraft. They comply to May 1940 paint standard of dark green above, light blue below. F.eg. Pe-2 were finished in those colors. A-14 was interior color (for cockpits) since 1930's. AE-9 was 1937 overall color, briefly supplanted by AE-8/AII Aluminium in 1938, then reintroduced in the same year. Also used with green on top before and after(I understand that the older a/c weren't immediately repainted AII blue below) AII green/blue camo came to effect. Which top green, that is what I'm not clear. 3B? AE-8 protective color (green)? Manual for I-16 with M-63 engine (i.e. Type 24) states that cockpit is painted in AE-9. For use on exteriors all-metal aircraft there were enamel (A series) equivalents of AMT paints, mostly used after mid 1943 (limited production of both all-metal a/c and paints). Edit: F.eg. used on Pe-8 before and after 1943. End edit. AMT-6 = A-26m AMT-4 = A-24m AMT-1 = A-21m AMT-7 = A-28m - note that Vakhlamov/Orlov state that kaolin (used as a flattening, matte agent) made A-28m greener than AMT-7, which isn't a greenish blue. AMT-11 = A-33m - note that Vakhlamov/Orlov state that A-33m was darker than AMT-11. AMT-12 = A-32m Feddawg said it's a field full of quicksand, but it's fun. Edited October 12, 2009 by dragonlance Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bergr Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Thank you Mario, especially for your threat at vvs... By the way...look at this http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/port...nce/russian.htm , written by KAri Lumppio. But if I understand right- AE9 was used only on metalparts- how it was used on Polikarpovs? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dragonlance Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Thank you Mario,especially for your threat at vvs... By the way...look at this http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/port...nce/russian.htm , written by KAri Lumppio. Check here for definitive "silver conspiracy" conclusion http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=544.15 For AE-9 check my post above. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bergr Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Check here for definitive "silver conspiracy" conclusionhttp://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=544.15 For AE-9 check my post above. Thank you very much- you writes so fast....faster than I can read ;-) (what a shame) but I learn by doing...I hope Cheers Ron Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bergr Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 (edited) Check here for definitive "silver conspiracy" conclusionhttp://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=544.15 For AE-9 check my post above. To remember You http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index....howtopic=189906 . And it is a German Source. But attention please by read the link given at post 6 ! The last picture on this link is about the Il2 ! not the Yak 1. But never the less it is a very good source to disprove the old rumor, that the VVs was very bad quality. In line 31 and 32 it is written " Die erzielte Oberflächenglätte ist erstaunlich gut." That means that the surface is in amazingly good condition. Edited October 12, 2009 by bergr Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dragonlance Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 To remember You http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index....howtopic=189906 .And it is a German Source. But attention please by read the link given at post 6 ! The last picture on this link is about the Il2 ! not the Yak 1. Thanks, I missed that one on ARC. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Thompson Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 (edited) But if I understand right- AE9 was used only on metalparts- how it was used on Polikarpovs? If you are referring to the I-153, this may help: Here's a photo which shows the difference in tone quite well, but note that there are differences between the drawing, above, and this photo, which shows the (metal) wing roots painted in aluminum, instead of AE9; conversely, the (fabric) wings appear to be painted in AE9, instead of aluminum: The first image is from Scalemodels.ru; the second is from ebay.de. John Edited October 12, 2009 by John Thompson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kari Lumppio Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 (edited) But attention please by read the link given at post 6 ! The last picture on this link is about the Il2 ! not the Yak 1. But never the less it is a very good source to disprove the old rumor, that the VVs was very bad quality. In line 31 and 32 it is written " Die erzielte Oberflächenglätte ist erstaunlich gut." That means that the surface is in amazingly good condition. Hello! Do you mean this photo: http://www.postimage.org/aVaQIcA-c7f875679...7390-resize.jpg Most certainly it is Yak-1 wheel well, not Il-2. The link seems to be broken on the other thread as I see only red X. Don't know what you see. There is/was a Il-2 sample photo in my album too (no link given). Perhaps this is what you see/saw? About the I-153 in grey and aluminium. You can find a colour photo of such plane in Luftwaffe im Focus special No. 1. Cheers, Kari PS I have nothing to do with the Fortunecity site. They have ripped my text off from my response at the rec.scale.models -forum in October 1998! Please see: http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index....howtopic=180396 Edited October 12, 2009 by Kari Lumppio Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Learstang Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Go back to post No.20, on page 1 of this thread, by "Linden Hill". He says:"I'm working on this right now, at least for the acrylic range. If I'm not mistaken, AKAN paints are actually produced to order in Finland, by this company: http://www.tikkurila.com I've just finished translating their VVS paint catalogue into English, so now at least know what's worth ordering in bulk and what isn't..." Perhaps there are fewer shipping restrictions on acrylic paints, versus enamels? Frankly, I'd prefer enamels, too. Edit - I just checked at Linden Hill, and on his Twitter page, Guy says he might possibly have the acrylics in stock this week. John Pity. I may just have to get over my "acrylophobia". Learstang Quote Link to post Share on other sites
feddawg Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 I think a lot of the problem rests in the fact that the VVS site was a one stop shopping solution when it first got up and running. For the most part, for a time little attention was paid to independent verification of what was being put forth as for the first time there seemed to be a place to go where a quick and easy answer could be obtained. Since the publication of his book it seems that a great deal more attention has been focused on the actual research that has gone into some of these claims. I have been posing questions about color options for my projects on modeling forums for the last 14 years, many times receiving responses from noted authors and "authorities" in their respective fields. I can say that most if not all have been gracious and forthcoming with not only their findings but also the basis that they used to achieve their findings. Most are logical, well researched, and VERIFIABLE, which leads to my skepticism with EP's work. The colors used on P-47M's of the 56th FG were field applied using paint stocks available to maintinence personel and after exhaustive interviews of those remaining who were there at the time the colors are still a coin toss and that's acceptable, putting forth shades of AMT-7, AMT-11, and AMT-12 that are different than what has been represented previously without providing some sort of verifying evidence is not. If his work is to have any future value as a basis for colors and schemes of VVS aircraft the time has come for EP to present the research used as a basis for his works. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bergr Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Hello!Do you mean this photo: http://www.postimage.org/aVaQIcA-c7f875679...7390-resize.jpg Most certainly it is Yak-1 wheel well, not Il-2. The link seems to be broken on the other thread as I see only red X. Don't know what you see. There is/was a Il-2 sample photo in my album too (no link given). Perhaps this is what you see/saw? About the I-153 in grey and aluminium. You can find a colour photo of such plane in Luftwaffe im Focus special No. 1. Cheers, Kari PS I have nothing to do with the Fortunecity site. They have ripped my text off from my response at the rec.scale.models -forum in October 1998! Please see: http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index....howtopic=180396 Hello Kari, thank you for your post. Sorry for my English.... I meant this link http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14205 is given at post 6, I mentioned above. The last picture in the first post is about Il 2. @ John thank you too. I`ve seen severel pictures where seems to show I 153 and I 15 bis in overall alu or gray. For silver: can it be, that they were painted with AII al overall with use a primer for the metal parts or painted in AE8 with a primer for wood/fabric? For pale gray: When AE9 was used overall - then used a primer for wood/fabric too? I`ve never heard, that AII lightgray exist. Cheers Ron Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kari Lumppio Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) ...Some very helpful information I have found has been in a couple of old Usenet posts on rec.models.scale by Kari Lumppio, where he presents approximate FS595 numbers for green paint from the upper surfaces of MiG-3 relics in Finland, and also the underside blue used on the MiG-3 and LaGG-3.... John Hello! Most of the FS comparisons to wreck parts in those early r.m.s posts of mine was done by mr. Kyösti Partonen and posted with his permission. Thanks have to go to him. FS comparison on the MiG-3 and LaGG-3 wreck parts at Vesivehmaa was done by us together. Kari Edited October 13, 2009 by Kari Lumppio Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Thompson Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) Hello!Most of the FS comparisons to wreck parts in those early r.m.s posts of mine was done by mr. Kyösti Partonen and posted with his permission. Thanks have to go to him. FS comparison on the MiG-3 and LaGG-3 wreck parts at Vesivehmaa was done by us together. Kari Hi Kari! Thanks for your reply. I'm just very grateful that you and Mr. Partonen made this information available. I know there are many who argue that FS595 is not completely correct as a colour-matching standard in this application, but it is a standard which is widely available. In checking various references for FS595 matches for the main AMT colours, I have found as many different colour numbers as there are references! It would seem that no one has been able to do the same kind of direct comparison which you did with the Finnish specimens. Thank you for eliminating at least some of the uncertainty related to VVS colours, especially for the MiG-3! John P.S. - There is an old saying - "One test is worth a thousand expert opinions"... Edited October 13, 2009 by John Thompson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Massimo Tessitori Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Hi :) About early type MiG-3, many photos (particularly wartime photos of German origin, but also some photos of Veesiveehma parts) seems to show that two different greens were utilized on metal parts and on wood/fabric parts. Probably they were very similar when new, but with ageing the one on wooden parts darkened, while the one on metal parts became lighter. At the light of the recent arguments, what color would be likely on metal, and what on wooden parts? Now I think that they are unlikely to be both AII green. Massimo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Thompson Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Hi About early type MiG-3, many photos (particularly wartime photos of German origin, but also some photos of Veesiveehma parts) seems to show that two different greens were utilized on metal parts and on wood/fabric parts. Probably they were very similar when new, but with ageing the one on wooden parts darkened, while the one on metal parts became lighter. At the light of the recent arguments, what color would be likely on metal, and what on wooden parts? Now I think that they are unlikely to be both AII green. Massimo Hi Massimo! :) I liked the first explanation better, or even the possibility that two different primers were used, then the upper surfaces of the whole aircraft painted in AII Green, and it's the difference in primers that caused the effect you describe. It seems unlikely to me that they would have two different paints of the (almost) same colour to finish the aircraft, but I could certainly be wrong. What about two-colour patterns? This might have meant four (or six, if you count the undersurface blue) different paints, if it was necessary (for what reason?) to apply different paints to wood/fabric and metal surfaces. I still think your original explanation (different aging effect on wood versus metal) is most logical; either that, or differences in primer, wood versus metal. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Massimo Tessitori Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Hi John, the chemical reaction to different primiers is the only alternative hipothesis. However it's proven that the different main parts of the plane were painted separately before being assembled. About later painting, with camo scheme: I suppose that they continue to paint green separately, then assembled the plane and overpainted bands of black, probably very thinned. Probably the disruptive pattern and the briefer life of a plane after the war outbreak mask the progressive difference in weathered colors. This is only an hypothesis, of course. By the way, photos seem to show difference in the shade of light blue between the rear fuselage (that looks darker) and the other parts of the plane even much after the introduction of camo; it is not clear if the same thing is related to the base material, if so it should happen between the inner and outer part of wings too. I've seen such things on photos of Yak 2-4, that were produced at Zavod 1 as the MiG-3, and on some I-16s. Massimo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sakai Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 "even the possibility that two different primers were used, then the upper surfaces of the whole aircraft painted in AII Green, and it's the difference in primers that caused the effect you describe" It is not the possibility but the hard fact explained in details in Vakhlamov/Orlov article/s. "It seems unlikely to me that they would have two different paints of the (almost) same colour to finish the aircraft" I cann't agree more. "...differences in primer, wood versus metal." Strongly agree, result=different appearance in the pictures of the same paint, darker on "wood" lighter on metal. Cheers, Mario Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bergr Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 "even the possibility that two different primers were used, then the upper surfaces of the whole aircraft painted in AII Green, and it's the difference in primers that caused the effect you describe"It is not the possibility but the hard fact explained in details in Vakhlamov/Orlov article/s. Can you tell us wich articel and chapter, please? "It seems unlikely to me that they would have two different paints of the (almost) same colour to finish the aircraft" I cann't agree more. Can you tell us please why? "...differences in primer, wood versus metal." Strongly agree, result=different appearance in the pictures of the same paint, darker on "wood" lighter on metal. Hornat/Migliari ( Colors of the falcons) show a picture from a captured Yak 9 T at page 13 wich showes a different appearance of AMT 6/4 when applied on metal (dark) and fabric (fuselage)- light . Cheers, Mario By the way... Leipnik ( Yak 9, Kiev 2000) wrote about two geentone colored Yaks produced at SAVOD 166 ( June to July 1943) on page 63. Sadly without the sources of knowledge. Cheers Ron Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sakai Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 By the way...Leipnik ( Yak 9, Kiev 2000) wrote about two geentone colored Yaks produced at SAVOD 166 ( June to July 1943) on page 63. Sadly without the sources of knowledge. Cheers Ron Sounds like Mr.Pilawskii Mario Quote Link to post Share on other sites
klesnik Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 (edited) Hi Massimo, ;) interesting question - I posted it on scalemodels.ru and we got some useful replies. IMHO, in late thirties metal planes were painted only with oil paints while wooden and fabric covered planes were painted with nitro-celluslose varnishes. In mid-1940, with the introduction green-light blue scheme oil paints were substituted with or gliftalevie (polyester) paints. SB bombers were never painted with nitro varnishes! In mixed construction planes metal parts were painted with oil paints. Folowing is excerpt from Maslov's I-153 book: It says that one scheme was AE-9 for metal and AII Aluminum for fabric. Recently posted scan of MiG-1 Technical Description conteins following image: Text specifies following: Rudder fabric AST-100 is covered with five layers of transparent aerolak AIN and then painted with light green aerolak above rib 1 and light blue aerolak below rib 1. AIN stands for: Aero-varnish First Coat (I) Nitro. It's logical (to me!) that light green aerolak and light blue aerolak mentioned above are AII Green and AII blue (II stands for second coat). Unfortunately nothing about paints used on metal parts. Probably the most useful resource to solve this puzzle is AKAN paint catalogue: For pre-war Migs: A-19 for metal parts and AIIZ (green) for wood/fabric For MiGs made after summer 1941: A-24m for metal parts and AMT-4 for wood/fabric Cheers, KL Edited October 17, 2009 by klesnik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Thompson Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Hey Konstantin - wow, that's a lot of information! Thank you, and I hope the moderators of this forum will see fit to pin this amazing thread! The details on the I-153 that you've posted support what was posted earlier in this thread, so confirmation of that is certainly a welcome relief! Regarding the MiG-1/MiG-3, for those who haven't seen the link elsewhere, here's the forum page referred to; "dabbler" has done a lot of excellent work to scan and post over 60 tech-manual images for us to enjoy, and I immediately saved all of them to my hard drive: http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewto...8_start_60.html Unfortunately what I see of your AKAN images is "red X's" (same thing on scalemodels.ru); can you repost them? Without seeing these, I'm guessing that your point is that Mr. Akanihin's research supports your comment (and also Massimo) about the several different paints used on the MiG fighters, but again, without the images, it's hard to be sure. Hi Mario! :) Do you have any news regarding a possible date for completion of the translation of the Vakhlamov and Orlov articles? Thanks, guys - this is great! John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dragonlance Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 For pre-war Migs: A-19 for metal parts and AIIZ (green) for wood/fabricFor MiGs made after summer 1941: A-24m for metal parts and AMT-4 for wood/fabric[/color] Cheers, :( KL Klesnik, the way I read my Vakhlamov/Orlov, AMT was used for mixed construction (and as I understand that includes metal) and A-24m only for all-metal aircraft. Or am I wrong in my translation? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dragonlance Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 John, here's my rough translation of the MK monograph. 60kB RAR file with .rtf files, numbered by original page (str1 is the front cover). Translation by Google translator, I just can't find the free time to clean it up. http://rapidshare.com/files/294249021/AiK_...lation.rar.html alternative link http://depositfiles.com/files/ha6ta1n50 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Massimo Tessitori Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 (edited) Hi friends, thank you for your interesting answers. So, if I understand well, the theory of AII overall and chemical reaction due to different primiers is supportev by VO, while the interpretation of different colors is supported by Akan (or by an interpretation of their catalogue). Now I have to read what is written on these translated pages, I'll try to understand if the reaction to primiers is described by VO as an interpretation of photos, or if it was a thing noted and explained at the time when the planes were painted. Massimo Edited October 18, 2009 by Massimo Tessitori Quote Link to post Share on other sites
klesnik Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Hi John, strange but I can see two images posted yesterday - must be a postimage.org fault. Images are showing AKAN paint catalogue scans: It's important to note time when AMT paints were introduced - summer 1941. Introduction of AMT paints coincides with the introduction of black-green disruptive scheme. So, early MiGs made before summer 1941 and painted in green top - blue bottom scheme (May 1940 scheme) coudn't have been painted in AMT colours. From Technical Description we know that fabric and wooden parts were painted in AII Nitro paints. These paints were glossy btw. No information at this time what paint was used for metal parts, but it was A-19 most likely. Those e-bay photos may confirm this theory. Forget following: For MiGs made after summer 1941: A-24m for metal parts and AMT-4 for wood/fabric My mistake MiGs made after June 1941 were camouflaged in black-green scheme and were painted with AMT paints! AMT paints were used on metal parts of mixed construction planes. According to V/O (Aviakolektsiya 12-2008) Page 9: "... aero-varnishes AMT were used to paint metal surfaces of planes of mixed construction. In that case special primer was used." Page 13: "For metal cowlings of planes of mixed construction, aero-varnishes were were applied over hot air dried ALG-5 primer..." Page 19: "... when metal surfaces were painted, gray-blue aero-varnish AMT-11 was used (over ALG-1 primer)" It dosn't say if AMT paints were used on metal parts from the begining of their use. Cheers, KL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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