Pave Knife and Pave spike pods question

[budinoh]

Would these be found on a Marine F-4J? I am fitting it with lazer guided bombs and it would make sense but decals for it says USAF. I realize I could say *** and do it cause it looks cool, but not if it couldn't have been posible.

TIA,

Jeff

[Andre]

Would these be found on a Marine F-4J? I am fitting it with lazer guided bombs and it would make sense but decals for it says USAF. I realize I could say *** and do it cause it looks cool, but not if it couldn't have been posible.

Jeff,

I don't think these items were used on Marine F-4Js in real life.

Of course, it is your model...

Cheers,

Andre

[muswp1]

I don't believe the USN/Marines ever used those pods. I'm pretty sure those were Air Force only.

[Reddog]

I don't believe the USN/Marines ever used those pods. I'm pretty sure those were Air Force only.

I concur, I think the Pave (whatever) pods were USAF only pods but then again, I can be wrong. The F-4J was a little bit before my time.

Reddog

[scotthldr]

The Paveknife was definitely used by the Navy on their A6 Intruders, so it might have been used by the Marines as well. Pavespike was solely USAF/RAF

[Murph]

The Pave Knife pod was used by VA-145 late in the Vietnam War; they had three (IIRC) A-6A's configured to carry them. I'm not sure on the Pave Spike, but I doubt either was used by the Marine F-4 squadrons.

Fifth and sixth combat cruises aboard RANGER followed, with the squadron now assigned to Carrier Air Wing TWO. The sixth and last combat cruise to Vietnam was highlighted by the Pave Knife laser guided bombing system. As a result fourteen highway and railroad bridges in North Vietnam were destroyed in only three hours. This significant capability brought recognition to the A-6 Pave Knife weapons system as one of the most potent weapons systems in a limited war environment.

Linkage

Regards,

Murph

[Reddog]

Yep, forgot about the A-6, was thinking strickly F-4. Thanks for keeping me honest.

Reddog

[RAGATIGER]

The Paveknife was definitely used by the Navy on their A6 Intruders, so it might have been used by the Marines as well. Pavespike was solely USAF/RAF

Hi there

I'm pretty sure that the Pavespike pod was also used by IDF AF F-4E, Imperial/Islamic Republic Iranian AF F-4E/D and also the South Korea AF F-4D and still wondering if the Turkish AF F-4E also

Best day

Armando

[SCOUT712]

Pave Spike is still used by the TuAF with their Terminator F-4 2020. They are looking for a replacement right now.

The British Buccaneer Force used them as late a in 91 as well.

SCOUT

[Jennings]

The Paveknife was definitely used by the Navy on their A6 Intruders, so it might have been used by the Marines as well. Pavespike was solely USAF/RAF

Pave Knife, and Pave Spike. It's two words. Program name is Pave, specific system is Knife or Spike. Sorta like saying Northdakota or Southcarolina. It's two separate words that mean different things..

J

[scotthldr]

Pave Knife, and Pave Spike. It's two words. Program name is Pave, specific system is Knife or Spike. Sorta like saying Northdakota or South Carolina. It's two separate words that mean different things..

J

Well thanks for that piece of useless information, that contributed to the OP's question

[ElectroSoldier]

Pave Knife, and Pave Spike. It's two words. Program name is Pave, specific system is Knife or Spike. Sorta like saying Northdakota or Southcarolina. It's two separate words that mean different things..

J

PAVE [Precission Avionics Vectoring Equipment]

I thought the program name came after PAVE, such as Knife, Spike, Low, Way etc etc

[leatherneck224]

Well thanks for that piece of useless information, that contributed to the OP's question

i found it useful as well the follow on post about what PAVE stands for. what i found useless was your comment that had even less to do with the OP's question.

i will concur with what has been said already. in my limited research of USMC phantoms i have not run accross anything that would lead me to believe that the PAVE Spike was carried by USMC phantoms. standing by to be corrected.

Edited January 24, 2009 by leatherneck224

[tony.t]

My understanding is that only USAF (and some FMS) F-4D/Es were wired to carry the AN/AVQ-23 Pave Spike, all of them having the digital scan converter radar upgrade (the “square-shaped†radarscope that could show radar and electro-optic imagery, as opposed to the original round rear cockpit radar-only display) and that these jets were also Maverick AGM-65-capable.

The biggest users were the LORAN ‘Towel Rail’ F-4Ds at Spangdahlem and Kunsan (and later with the Texas AFRes at Bergstrom & Carswell), plus F-4Es from Moody and Ramstein, though George’s short-lived 39 TFS Cobras had them for a while also around 1981 or so, plus hand-me-down ANG users.

RAF S.2 Buccaneers did use them from around 1978 or so until retirement around 1992.

AN/AVQ-10 Pave Knife was wired into a dozen F-4Ds - six deployed to Ubon - and three Navy A-6As with VA-145 Swordsmen on the Ranger, the Phantom IIs having a new little Sony TV display (as they were pre 566-mod as described above). It was replaced, post-Vietnam, by the built-in TRAM laser/FLIR system on most A-6E Intruders, and by the USAF AN/AVQ-26 Pave Tack pod which was used by select ‘Arnie’ mod F-4Es/RF-4Cs at Clark, Seymour-Johnson, Alconbury and Bergstrom; and most F-111Fs (and F-111Cs from Oz) from 1981.

AFAIK the Marines didn’t use any of these pods. If they carried LGBs the designation - target sparkling - would have come from either Marines on the ground, or another aircraft with a designator.

Tony T

Edited January 24, 2009 by tony.t

[TuveB]

AFAIK the Marines didn’t use any of these pods. If they carried LGBs the designation - target sparkling - would have come from either Marines on the ground, or another aircraft with a designator.

Tony T

Just out of curiosity, what planes did the USMC use for target designation?

[tony.t]

Just out of curiosity, what planes did the USMC use for target designation?

You should ask them!

I would guess any game in town.

FAC/Fast-FAC probably, and they could be Air Force, ranging from OV-10 Pave Nail to AC-130 Pave Spectre, and after Vietnam... and story begins like this...

You should ask them!

I would guess any game in town.

(It was a dark and stormy night, and boatswain said to the skipper, tell us a story Jim, and story began like this: it was a dark and stormy night, and the ...)

[phillyb]

My understanding is that only USAF (and some FMS) F-4D/Es were wired to carry the AN/AVQ-23 Pave Spike, all of them having the digital scan converter radar upgrade (the “square-shaped†radarscope that could show radar and electro-optic imagery, as opposed to the original round rear cockpit radar-only display) and that these jets were also Maverick AGM-65-capable.

The biggest users were the LORAN ‘Towel Rail’ F-4Ds at Spangdahlem and Kunsan (and later with the Texas AFRes at Bergstrom & Carswell), plus F-4Es from Moody and Ramstein, though George’s short-lived 39 TFS Cobras had them for a while also around 1981 or so, plus hand-me-down ANG users.

RAF S.2 Buccaneers did use them from around 1978 or so until retirement around 1992.

AN/AVQ-10 Pave Knife was wired into a dozen F-4Ds - six deployed to Ubon - and three Navy A-6As with VA-145 Swordsmen on the Ranger, the Phantom IIs having a new little Sony TV display (as they were pre 566-mod as described above). It was replaced, post-Vietnam, by the built-in TRAM laser/FLIR system on most A-6E Intruders, and by the USAF AN/AVQ-26 Pave Tack pod which was used by select ‘Arnie’ mod F-4Es/RF-4Cs at Clark, Seymour-Johnson, Alconbury and Bergstrom; and most F-111Fs (and F-111Cs from Oz) from 1981.

AFAIK the Marines didn’t use any of these pods. If they carried LGBs the designation - target sparkling - would have come from either Marines on the ground, or another aircraft with a designator.

Tony T

pave spike pods were used at Ramstein in the mid 80,s while i was stationed there also at Spang I saw a few

[scotthldr]

Just out of curiosity, what planes did the USMC use for target designation?

AFAIK the USMC did very little in the way of Guided Weapon delivery during Vietnam, when they did they used the ALD(Airborne Laser Disignator) which was fixed inside the cockpit of one a/c which would laser spot for his wingman.

[tony.t]

pave spike pods were used at Ramstein in the mid 80,s while i was stationed there also at Spang I saw a few

Hahn's 50th TFW and Bentwaters/Woodbridge 81st TFW also had them for a while. They were fairly widely dispersed as they offered a laser-ranging ROR (release on range) mode which could be used in lieu of radar-ranging for conventional and other stores. (Tamiya's F-4C/D kit in 1/32 has the correct indicator option for the coaming.)

Just wished somebody made a Pave Spiike in 1/32 scale!

Tony T

[tony.t]

AFAIK the USMC did very little in the way of Guided Weapon delivery during Vietnam, when they did they used the ALD(Airborne Laser Disignator) which was fixed inside the cockpit of one a/c which would laser spot for his wingman.

Fascinating stuff that needs to be aired!

The USAF used AVQ-9 Paveway designators mounted on the rear F-4D canopy sill in a pylon turn, for this kind of 'buddy lasing' stuff, and I understand that TA-4Js were used on the Hancock in 1972 to the same effect, but using hand-held designators.

I guess the Marines used one of those systems?

It just gets better...!

[ThePhantomTwo]

The biggest users were the LORAN ‘Towel Rail’ F-4Ds at Spangdahlem and Kunsan (and later with the Texas AFRes at Bergstrom & Carswell), plus F-4Es from Moody and Ramstein, though George’s short-lived 39 TFS Cobras had them for a while also around 1981 or so, plus hand-me-down ANG users.

The only LORAN "Towel Rack" ANG Phantoms I know of were RF-4C's,I can't recall any F-4D/E ANG that had it(doesn't mean a a/c or two had it,just not at squadron level IIRC),I mainly seen AFRES F-4D/E units have it installed.

Nearly all ANG F-4E units had Pave Spike capability,my ANG unit trained with pod on a regular basis when we flew F-4E's.

[tony.t]

The only LORAN "Towel Rack" ANG Phantoms I know of were RF-4C's,I can't recall any F-4D/E ANG that had it(doesn't mean a a/c or two had it,just not at squadron level IIRC),I mainly seen AFRES F-4D/E units have it installed.

Nearly all ANG F-4E units had Pave Spike capability,my ANG unit trained with pod on a regular basis when we flew F-4E's.

There were 'Towel Rack' F-4Ds assigned to the Air Force Reserve at both Carswell and Bergstrom AFBs in Texas c.1981-1985. They formerly flew with the 8th TFW at Ubon and Kunsan, and the 52nd TFW at Spang in Germany.

It used the ITT ARN-92 system which was also employed inside the hump of T-Stick II F-105Ds flown at Carswell. There were plenty of F-4Ds with this mod, survivors of the six dozen or so modified.

Cheers

Tony T :D

Edited January 24, 2009 by tony.t

[Reddog-03]

I have photos of F-14A's carrying PAVE SPIKE in 1995, in the Bomb-cat role.

[Matt Roberts]

A while back I read a statement that the USN didn't see the benefits of LGB capability fleet wide until Desert Storm, so that most precision munitions that Navy and Marine airframes were seen with were either anti-radiation missiles or TV guided weapons such as the Walleye and Maverick. One of the earliest usages I recall hearing about were the AGM-123 Skipper during the 'Tanker War' in 87-88 against the Iranians. Those were utilized by the A-6 and not the SLUFs or Hornets then in service. Even during Desert Storm I recall seeing more iron bombs and CBUs than anything else (well other than HARMs)

Ok....now correct me guys!

Matt

Edited December 27, 2010 by Matt Roberts

[A6BSTARM]

A while back I read a statement that the USN didn't see the benefits of LGB capability fleet wide until Desert Storm, so that most precision munitions that Navy and Marine airframes were seen with were either anti-radiation missiles or TV guided weapons such as the Walleye and Maverick. One of the earliest usages I recall hearing about were the AGM-123 Skipper during the 'Tanker War' in 87-88 against the Iranians. Those were utilized by the A-6 and not the SLUFs or Hornets then in service. Even during Desert Storm I recall seeing more iron bombs and CBUs than anything else (well other than HARMs)

Ok....now correct me guys!

Matt

It was more along the lines that PGM's on a whole really were only 10% of the load out from the end of Vietnam through to the end of Desert Storm. It wasn't cause they didn't see the benefits of PGM's, if that was true then we wouldn't have seen the TRAM/DRS upgrade to the A-6, and the Nite Hawk pods of the F-18's; along with modifications of tactics at Strike U in Fallon using improved buddy lazing tactics and FAC lazing, until recently. Rather at the time the costs of a PAVEWAY kit, the size of the kit at the time, and the fact that the Navy and the AF were at odds over who was supposed to run the various programs as it related to PGM's programs. With the pass of the Goldwater-Nicholas Act in 1986, we saw an increase in sharing of development costs and mating of PGM (and weapon development in general) development. That is why the JDAM, JSOW, and JASSM, are called Joint.

Now back to the original post. From the 1970's on up to the mid 1980's. The USN and USMC praticed Buddy Lazing. Using either DRS, PAVE Knife, or a cockpit mounted lazer (similar to what a ground base FAC would use), one aircraft would designate targets for the rest of the strike package. One of the other problems was trying to change tactics of the Carrier and Marine Air wings from the World War 2 large deck Alpha strikes into smaller strike packages that would be better managed when using the buddy lazing going on. As the capabilities of laser pods improved and the improvement of aircraft wiring more aircraft could carry combo pods that could spot and self-designate.