Robert Hampton Gray Corsair Info Wanted

[don weixl]

Hello,

Can anybody direct me to information on what type of Corsair Hampton Gray flew and if decals are available? I have the 1/48 Tamiya F4-1A kit bit I suspect Hampton Gray used a F4U-4.

Thanks!

Don Weixl Jr.

[jrallman]

Though 1841 squadron flew Corsair I, II, III, and IV, I believe that Hammy's Corsair, at least the 115 plane that I have seen, was a Corsair IV

decals

Edited January 24, 2009 by jrallman

[Paul O'R]

Don,

Hammy Gray flew the Corsair IV which would equate to the F4U-1D. I wrote a response to an earlier query so I'll post it again below. Note that the War Diary in question has gone missing from the museum where I do my volunteer work. The gist of the report below is that hammy Gray did not fly aircraft 1*15 on his last flight. Exactly which aircraft he did fly is not known.

"There was an earlier thread about the side number of Lt Gray's Corsair IV on his last mission 9 August 1945. As a volunteer at the CFB Esquimalt Naval and Military Museum I came across a copy of the transcribed 1841 War Diary but it stopped 24 July 1945. However, there was a letter from the former squadron CO dated 7 July 1992, which again had been transcribed, in which he explained the squadron historian S/Lt Alan Maitland RNVR had been killed 10 August and the diary was never completed. However, he provided some information from the 1842 Squadron Fair Flying Log which states that on 9 August 1945 the following aircraft were airborne at the times indicated:

Note: 1. LCdr Bigg-Wither took off at 0600 with 12 1841 Sqn Corsairs (see notes in parenthesis below)

2. Lt Gray took off at 0826 leading 8 1841 aircraft.

0405 to 0815 113

0525 to 0855 115

0811 to 1155 119, 120

0925 to 1205 115

1110 to 1455 112

1430 to 1825 115, 116, 117, 118, 122, 123, 124, 131, 134, 135, 137, 138, 140, 141, 142, 145, 130.

On 10 August the following aircraft were flown:

111,115,116,117,119,121,122,123,124,125,132,134,135,136,138,140,142, and 146.

The following aircraft from 1841 and 1842 Squadrons are a possibility:

113 - but only had 11 minutes turnaround time having landed at 0815;

114 - barrier prang on 30 Jul 45 and not shown to have flown(Connolly flew 114 on 9 August 1945);

126 - last flown 5 August 45

127 - not on strength having crashed at sea 21 May 1945;

128 - last flown 4 August 1945;

129 - last flown 28 Jul 45(Glading of 1841 Sqn flew 129 on 9 August 1945);

130 - last flown 7 August 1945 (MacKinnon flew 130 on 9 August 1945);

133 - last flown 25 July 1945;

139 - last flown on either 17 of 30 July 1945;

143 - last flown 30 July 1945; and

144 - last flown 28 July 45 (MacKinnon of 1841 Sqn flew 144 on 10 August 1945.

The debate will not be resolved until the 1841 Squadron Fair Log is found. Also note that it was standard procedure for aircraft to be shared between squadrons as the needs dictated.

In addition to a recent posting about Lt Gray's Corsair IV on 9 August 1945 I wish to add a comment on aircraft markings used by 1841 and 1842 Squadron aboard HMS Formidable in the late spring and summer of 1945.

In a letter by the former CO of 1941 Squadron, LCdr Bigg-Wither, he made the following statement is a P.S. (note I have used the * to indicate the roundel):

"P.S. It has always annoyed me slightly that the markings on Hammy's Corsair in Canada and elsewhere, in Soward's book for instance, are wrong. Many years ago Philip Markham asked me to tell him, which I did:- 1*15. Apparently he also asked the MOD who said that all Corsairs squadrons in the Pacific were marked *115. This was quite correct until after the 'ICEBERG' Ops in April/ May 45 SAKASHIMA's. Because of the Kamikaze's, followed by a disastrous hangar fire in FORMIDABLE, we completely re-equipped on return to Sydney. I decided to alter the new aircraft markings, placing the 1 before the roundel to distinguish 1841 from 1842, so in the final Ops on Japan these were the markings.

One of our Army liaison Officers on board was quite an artist and did a water colour of my own a/c showing marking 1*11 which I still have so there is no doubt whatever about it. 1841 markings went from 1*11 to 1*24 followed by 1842's *125 to *148.

When searching for some photo's for you I came across some of 2 Corsairs from another Pacific Carrier marked P on the tail fin (we were X) I believe that was VICTORIOUS or possibly ILLUSTRIOUS. Which again proves that these split markings were in existence. Anyhow, I know I am right."

On another note he went on to say that due to a shortage of belly drop tanks they brought the empty ones back aboard after the flight. They had to be empty as the full ones had a habit of breaking off in an arrested landing. However with the loss of an aircraft which had been hit in the empty tank by groundfire and subsequently blowing up, it was decided have all aircraft drop their belly tanks prior to landing except for those aircraft on CAP duties over the fleet and picket ships. Those aircraft could drop their belly tanks if they were engaged in air combat"

HTH

Paul O'Reilly

[Scooby]

Nice post Paul, it is along the lines of what I have posted in the past.

I have copies of several FAA pilots logs who flew 115 after Hammy died which also supports the arguement he was not flying 115 that day.

Recently the Japanese attempted to find his Corsair but were unable to find it. Hammy is the only Allied service person who is honored with a memorial in Japan.

[Chuck1945]

Hammy Gray flew the Corsair IV which would equate to the F4U-1D.

Close.The Corsair IV aircraft were Goodyear built FG) not Vought built (F4U). The actual US designation would have been FG-1. From a modeler's perspective, it is a moot point however, since a F4U-1d kit would also work for a FG-1.

The British contracts identified the various Corsair versions by builder:

Corsair I - Vought F4U-1

Corsair II - Vought F4U-1a and -1d

Corsair III - Brewster built (F3A)

Corsair IV - Goodyear built (FG-1)

[agboak]

Just a couple of clarifying points.

The FAA did not operate the F4U-4.

The unit may well have flown all marks of the aircraft, but at different times. The aircraft available at the time will all have been FG-1Ds. (OK, I know most people will have known that, but not everyone.)

[Scooby]

Close.The Corsair IV aircraft were Goodyear built FG) not Vought built (F4U). The actual US designation would have been FG-1. From a modeler's perspective, it is a moot point however, since a F4U-1d kit would also work for a FG-1.

The British contracts identified the various Corsair versions by builder:

Corsair I - Vought F4U-1

Corsair II - Vought F4U-1a and -1d

Corsair III - Brewster built (F3A)

Corsair IV - Goodyear built (FG-1)

I'll need to check my references again, but I thought when the Brewster line was shut down some Vought builds made their way to the British.

[Chuck1945]

I'll need to check my references again, but I thought when the Brewster line was shut down some Vought builds made their way to the British.

Vought built Corsairs most definitely went to the British, but as Corsair I (birdcage) or Corsair II (F4U-1a), not as Corsair IV. Corsair IV aircraft came from Goodyear. Any Brewster built were identified as Corsair III. The Corsair IV designation applied to both FG-1A and FG-1D so the serial would be required to determine if it was an FG-1A or FG-1D.

[Andrew A.]

In addition to a recent posting about Lt Gray's Corsair IV on 9 August 1945 I wish to add a comment on aircraft markings used by 1841 and 1842 Squadron aboard HMS Formidable in the late spring and summer of 1945.

In a letter by the former CO of 1941 Squadron, LCdr Bigg-Wither, he made the following statement is a P.S. (note I have used the * to indicate the roundel):

"P.S. It has always annoyed me slightly that the markings on Hammy's Corsair in Canada and elsewhere, in Soward's book for instance, are wrong. Many years ago Philip Markham asked me to tell him, which I did:- 1*15. Apparently he also asked the MOD who said that all Corsairs squadrons in the Pacific were marked *115. This was quite correct until after the 'ICEBERG' Ops in April/ May 45 SAKASHIMA's. Because of the Kamikaze's, followed by a disastrous hangar fire in FORMIDABLE, we completely re-equipped on return to Sydney. I decided to alter the new aircraft markings, placing the 1 before the roundel to distinguish 1841 from 1842, so in the final Ops on Japan these were the markings.

One of our Army liaison Officers on board was quite an artist and did a water colour of my own a/c showing marking 1*11 which I still have so there is no doubt whatever about it. 1841 markings went from 1*11 to 1*24 followed by 1842's *125 to *148.

When searching for some photo's for you I came across some of 2 Corsairs from another Pacific Carrier marked P on the tail fin (we were X) I believe that was VICTORIOUS or possibly ILLUSTRIOUS. Which again proves that these split markings were in existence. Anyhow, I know I am right."

Wow, this is interesting stuff. I've gotten used to the 115 code and layout from having seen the photos many times. I have a set of old Arrow Graphics decals that have it the "wrong" way as well. Was planning on using them soon, maybe will have to add a caveat... On a semi-related note I was in Nelson over the holidays and had a look at the plaque honouring Gray at the Legion. Surprised that there isn't something bigger, but it's an understated presentation for what was probably a pretty down-home guy. :blink:

Thanks Paul for this, great reading.

Cheers, A

[Jonathan Mock]

Fascinating stuff indeed - so was this aircraft one of Hampton Grey's albeit prior to the Icebergs Ops?

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Aircraft..._formidable.jpg

[martin_sam_2000]

Hi Paul,

I see you have a lot of info on Hammy Gray's career and I was wondering if you have any info on his aircraft while he served in the Atlantic. I am going to build a model of his corsair and I want to go the temperate scheme, but I can't find any info. The researcher at VWoC said he had a bit but nothing conclusive( I volunteer there and they are going to eventually repaint the corsiar temperate).

any help would be great!!!

Sean

[Mrp]

I have not yet seen any tie up between aircraft and pilots on Formidable during Operation Goodwood (Tirpitz Raids) Photos exist of the aircraft at the time, but again its requires some further research of Squadron records . It is safe to say that during Goodwood, Corsair II were used with the Temperate scheme with individual aircraft numbers and codes in white.http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk/media/images/Photographs/Image/A_024787.jpg Serial number and Royal Navy would remain black.

The interesting fact for Canadians, is that in addition to Hamilton -Gray. there were five other Canadians flying Corsairs with him. Only two survived. The first Canadian killed on Japanese soil was a Canadian Corsair pilot and the last Canadian killed in WW2 was a Corsair pilot.

The picture Jonathon posted originated from a Norwegian pilots collection of photos , on the back of the original copy he wrote "Hammy's aircraft".

The amount of aircraft losses that Formidable had is astronomical. What with the Divine Wind attacks ,fires and operational losses, they were constantly replenishing with new aircraft. The individual code numbers were assigned and painted on the carrier.To date I have yet to see a picture of an 1841 Sqd aircraft with the split number. (I even recently obtained film of Formidable in action and all the numbers are one side of the SEAC roundel).

An interesting footnote to the last scheme on Hamilton-Gray's final flight is that when Canadian Warplane Heritage first painted their Corsair (which has since been sold and being restored in Idaho) they got the numbers wrong and painted it as 147 which is an 1842 squadron aircraft.

Mark

Hi Paul,

I see you have a lot of info on Hammy Gray's career and I was wondering if you have any info on his aircraft while he served in the Atlantic. I am going to build a model of his corsair and I want to go the temperate scheme, but I can't find any info. The researcher at VWoC said he had a bit but nothing conclusive( I volunteer there and they are going to eventually repaint the corsiar temperate).

any help would be great!!!

Sean

[Paul O'R]

Guys,

As I recall the 1841 Squadron diary had quite a bit of information on the Tirpitz raid but I' pretty sure it did not indicate who flew which aircraft. There were some photos attached but they were photocopies and quite grainy. It did show ingress and egress routes and such. Keep in mind I hadn't gotten to that event in the diary before it disappeared. There were mentions from time to time that so-and-so flew this particular aircraft when he had such-and-such happen. I believe, as others had said, the squadron was equipped with the Corsair II while embarked in Formidable off Norway. I know one of them crash landed in Norway the day after the strike and was taken to Germany for evaluation. Perhaps there is some information from that event elsewhere.

My reading of the letter attached to the diary left me with the impression the split number configuration was put into effect during the Okinawa campaign or shortly thereafter. Thus the aircraft from SEAC period should have the numbers grouped together and not split into two. Also, pilots flew whichever aircraft were serviceable and ready for any particular mission. Hammy's aircraft was 119, IIRC, but it was down in the hangar and couldn't be brought up in time so he took another. I guess the question is - which one?

One other point, the squadron diary only went to 24 July 1944 as the officer assigned to its upkeep was shot down and killed on that date. Hostilities ended before another officer was assigned to the task.

On the point of the last Canadian killed in WW II, I think it was a chap named Anderson. He launched from Formidable early that morning for a strike against an airfield near Sendai. His aircraft was hit in the fuel tank and he ran out of gas on short final to the carrier and crashed into the round-down. The aircraft broke in two and he was seen slumped over the controls with the canopy closed as the wreck sank beneath the waves. His accident (due to enemy fire) happened about 30 minutes after Hammy Gray was killed. I have also heard rumours (unconfirmed) that one or more Canadian pilots who were prisoners-of-war were executed (beheaded) on 15 August by their guards. If true I guess he (they) would be the last to die from enemy action.

Paul O'Reilly

[Jonathan Mock]

The picture Jonathon posted originated from a Norwegian pilots collection of photos , on the back of the original copy he wrote "Hammy's aircraft".

Can we take that aircraft is probably KD658 and that Hammy did fly it at some stage in his career, albeit not the mission that one him the VC?

[Paul O'R]

Jonathan;

[Paul O'R]

Jonathan;

Only one airframe would hold the serial KG658. So it could be 115. A number of airframes within a squadron had the number 115 but no two at the same time. As an aircraft was written off its replacement would be assigned its squadron code (115 in this case) but the serial number would never be used again.

Hammy Gray probably flew an aircraft 115 whilst in 1841 squadron. Whether he flew KD658 is another matter, but he could have.

Paul

[Jonathan Mock]

Jonathan;

Only one airframe would hold the serial KG658. So it could be 115. A number of airframes within a squadron had the number 115 but no two at the same time. As an aircraft was written off its replacement would be assigned its squadron code (115 in this case) but the serial number would never be used again.

Hammy Gray probably flew an aircraft 115 whilst in 1841 squadron. Whether he flew KD658 is another matter, but he could have.

Paul

Thanks Paul, Ray Sturtivant has KD658 as being flown by Hammy, presumably as 115 at some stage.

[airjiml2]

My reading of the letter attached to the diary left me with the impression the split number configuration was put into effect during the Okinawa campaign or shortly thereafter. Thus the aircraft from SEAC period should have the numbers grouped together and not split into two.

The only issue I have with this is that there physically isn't room to break the numbers that way unless either the roundel bars were removed or the roundel was repositioned. Both are possible, but without photographic confirmation I tend to doubt this memory. Or maybe I'm just too used to how the CWH Corsair looked.

Jim

[Jonathan Mock]

The only issue I have with this is that there physically isn't room to break the numbers that way unless either the roundel bars were removed or the roundel was repositioned. Both are possible, but without photographic confirmation I tend to doubt this memory. Or maybe I'm just too used to how the CWH Corsair looked.

Jim

I can only guess that it may have been similar to the way the codes were broken on some of the 1834 NAS Corsairs that were on Victorious.

[airjiml2]

I can only guess that it may have been similar to the way the codes were broken on some of the 1834 NAS Corsairs that were on Victorious.

Good point, but weren't they TSS and not GSB? I'm going to have too look at Corsair photos tonight...

Jim

[Jonathan Mock]

Good point, but weren't they TSS and not GSB? I'm going to have too look at Corsair photos tonight...

Jim

They were, and I suspect that the roundels on some might not have been 54 inch.

[Chris G]

Don,

Hammy Gray flew the Corsair IV which would equate to the F4U-1D. I wrote a response to an earlier query so I'll post it again below. Note that the War Diary in question has gone missing from the museum where I do my volunteer work. The gist of the report below is that hammy Gray did not fly aircraft 1*15 on his last flight. Exactly which aircraft he did fly is not known.

"There was an earlier thread about the side number of Lt Gray's Corsair IV on his last mission 9 August 1945. As a volunteer at the CFB Esquimalt Naval and Military Museum I came across a copy of the transcribed 1841 War Diary but it stopped 24 July 1945. However, there was a letter from the former squadron CO dated 7 July 1992, which again had been transcribed, in which he explained the squadron historian S/Lt Alan Maitland RNVR had been killed 10 August and the diary was never completed. However, he provided some information from the 1842 Squadron Fair Flying Log which states that on 9 August 1945 the following aircraft were airborne at the times indicated:

Note: 1. LCdr Bigg-Wither took off at 0600 with 12 1841 Sqn Corsairs (see notes in parenthesis below)

2. Lt Gray took off at 0826 leading 8 1841 aircraft.

0405 to 0815 113

0525 to 0855 115

0811 to 1155 119, 120

0925 to 1205 115

1110 to 1455 112

1430 to 1825 115, 116, 117, 118, 122, 123, 124, 131, 134, 135, 137, 138, 140, 141, 142, 145, 130.

On 10 August the following aircraft were flown:

111,115,116,117,119,121,122,123,124,125,132,134,135,136,138,140,142, and 146.

The following aircraft from 1841 and 1842 Squadrons are a possibility:

113 - but only had 11 minutes turnaround time having landed at 0815;

114 - barrier prang on 30 Jul 45 and not shown to have flown(Connolly flew 114 on 9 August 1945);

126 - last flown 5 August 45

127 - not on strength having crashed at sea 21 May 1945;

128 - last flown 4 August 1945;

129 - last flown 28 Jul 45(Glading of 1841 Sqn flew 129 on 9 August 1945);

130 - last flown 7 August 1945 (MacKinnon flew 130 on 9 August 1945);

133 - last flown 25 July 1945;

139 - last flown on either 17 of 30 July 1945;

143 - last flown 30 July 1945; and

144 - last flown 28 July 45 (MacKinnon of 1841 Sqn flew 144 on 10 August 1945.

The debate will not be resolved until the 1841 Squadron Fair Log is found. Also note that it was standard procedure for aircraft to be shared between squadrons as the needs dictated.

In addition to a recent posting about Lt Gray's Corsair IV on 9 August 1945 I wish to add a comment on aircraft markings used by 1841 and 1842 Squadron aboard HMS Formidable in the late spring and summer of 1945.

In a letter by the former CO of 1941 Squadron, LCdr Bigg-Wither, he made the following statement is a P.S. (note I have used the * to indicate the roundel):

"P.S. It has always annoyed me slightly that the markings on Hammy's Corsair in Canada and elsewhere, in Soward's book for instance, are wrong. Many years ago Philip Markham asked me to tell him, which I did:- 1*15. Apparently he also asked the MOD who said that all Corsairs squadrons in the Pacific were marked *115. This was quite correct until after the 'ICEBERG' Ops in April/ May 45 SAKASHIMA's. Because of the Kamikaze's, followed by a disastrous hangar fire in FORMIDABLE, we completely re-equipped on return to Sydney. I decided to alter the new aircraft markings, placing the 1 before the roundel to distinguish 1841 from 1842, so in the final Ops on Japan these were the markings.

One of our Army liaison Officers on board was quite an artist and did a water colour of my own a/c showing marking 1*11 which I still have so there is no doubt whatever about it. 1841 markings went from 1*11 to 1*24 followed by 1842's *125 to *148.

When searching for some photo's for you I came across some of 2 Corsairs from another Pacific Carrier marked P on the tail fin (we were X) I believe that was VICTORIOUS or possibly ILLUSTRIOUS. Which again proves that these split markings were in existence. Anyhow, I know I am right."

On another note he went on to say that due to a shortage of belly drop tanks they brought the empty ones back aboard after the flight. They had to be empty as the full ones had a habit of breaking off in an arrested landing. However with the loss of an aircraft which had been hit in the empty tank by groundfire and subsequently blowing up, it was decided have all aircraft drop their belly tanks prior to landing except for those aircraft on CAP duties over the fleet and picket ships. Those aircraft could drop their belly tanks if they were engaged in air combat"

HTH

Paul O'Reilly

[Chris G]

In addition to a recent posting about Lt Gray's Corsair IV on 9 August 1945 I wish to add a comment on aircraft markings used by 1841 and 1842 Squadron aboard HMS Formidable in the late spring and summer of 1945.

In a letter by the former CO of 1941 Squadron, LCdr Bigg-Wither, he made the following statement is a P.S. (note I have used the * to indicate the roundel):

"P.S. It has always annoyed me slightly that the markings on Hammy's Corsair in Canada and elsewhere, in Soward's book for instance, are wrong. Many years ago Philip Markham asked me to tell him, which I did:- 1*15. Apparently he also asked the MOD who said that all Corsairs squadrons in the Pacific were marked *115. This was quite correct until after the 'ICEBERG' Ops in April/ May 45 SAKASHIMA's. Because of the Kamikaze's, followed by a disastrous hangar fire in FORMIDABLE, we completely re-equipped on return to Sydney. I decided to alter the new aircraft markings, placing the 1 before the roundel to distinguish 1841 from 1842, so in the final Ops on Japan these were the markings.

One of our Army liaison Officers on board was quite an artist and did a water colour of my own a/c showing marking 1*11 which I still have so there is no doubt whatever about it. 1841 markings went from 1*11 to 1*24 followed by 1842's *125 to *148.

When searching for some photo's for you I came across some of 2 Corsairs from another Pacific Carrier marked P on the tail fin (we were X) I believe that was VICTORIOUS or possibly ILLUSTRIOUS. Which again proves that these split markings were in existence. Anyhow, I know I am right."

On another note he went on to say that due to a shortage of belly drop tanks they brought the empty ones back aboard after the flight. They had to be empty as the full ones had a habit of breaking off in an arrested landing. However with the loss of an aircraft which had been hit in the empty tank by groundfire and subsequently blowing up, it was decided have all aircraft drop their belly tanks prior to landing except for those aircraft on CAP duties over the fleet and picket ships. Those aircraft could drop their belly tanks if they were engaged in air combat"

HTH

Paul O'Reilly

Paul - don't know if this adds anything to the discussion except to confirm that in July 1945, 1842 (assuming from you post above that AC 136 was in 1842 sqdn) squadron were using non-split markings as Lcdr Bigg-Whiter states. I have a photo which I had never seen before shows ac *136 onthe Formid's deck on July 25 1945. I am still searching for a pic that will settle the question.

The photo in question is in PDF format and I can not paste it here (can't or don't know how). If anyone wants to see it, contact me at: luckytowne@hotmail.com

Chris

[Charlie Payne]

Very interested to find this thread, and hope that some of the earlier conttributors are still active on it. I can add a little 'around the edges' detail to earlier posts. My father S/Lt (A) B.C.E. ('Bunny') Payne RNVR was operational in August 1945 as a Corsair pilot with 1842 squadron as part of HMS Formidable's air group. Sadly Bunny died three years ago, and with my mother now having followed on I have his flying log. This records that on 9th August 1945 he flew Corsair IV serial 142 (as noted in an earlier post) on the 'Ramrod' operation. His log records '7 airfields (Museda)' which I assume must in fact be Masuda. The log contains no timings re take off, only that the flight was quite a lengthy one - 4 hours and 20 minutes - so drop tanks were presumably fitted.

It is possible that Bunny was in the first 'wave' of Ramrod Corsairs which beat up the airfields, causing Hammy Gray to divert and lead his flight againts the shipping targets they had seen on their inbound trip to the original airfield targets. My father spoke in the most glowing terms of Hammy, who was I think senior pilot on 1841 when Bunny joined 1842. Going further through the log I think I can rule out the following further serials as being in any way connected with Lt Gray's final flight, as the log shows Bunny flying these at various points after August 9th: 111, 118, 125, 132, 138, 146. This would tend to confirm the thouight that 1841 and 1842 did, to some extent, 'share' aircraft, as looking at the thread both 111 and 118 should 'officially' have been 1841 planes.

Bunny was demobbed in 1946 at the age of 21, and spent his career firstly in the aircraft paint industry, then latterly as a sub-postmaster. A blue and whiite 'zig zag' FAA tie was with him in his coffin on his final mission.

With best regards,

Charlie Payne