Flankerman Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I am using Flanker's build as a guide to build the Iraqi Mi-171. Although there are some differences, his build presents the basic techniques need to build most versions of the Hip airframe. It is not a difficult conversion and will likely be the only way to get the ramp or dolphin nose for quite some time. One detail that I noted but haven't researched yet, I believe that the horizontal stabilizers on the tail should have ribbed detail rather than engraved. This is based on general rotary wing knowledge rather than research though. If anyone can help with this, it would be appreciated. Mac You are correct Mac. The Mi-8 tailplanes are metal with fabric covering - they have a metal leading edge and tips - with fabric aft of the spar. The fabric is quite taut though - no sagging. These photos I took at the Weston-Super-Mare Helicopter Museum show the effect quite well...... HTH. Ken Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Hello Flankerman and Screaminhelo, This was so in the past. The stabilizers did have a canvas covering (up to around 10-15 years ago) but now they are all metal (aluminium)! Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Otto Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 I wish someone would come out with one of these in 1/48th. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dæn Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 (edited) Hee guys, I'm planing to start a Hobbyboss 1/72 Hip flown by the CIA for a Dutch group build. In particular I'm interested to build the N353MA. I was inspired by this Hip-thread. Two quick questions about the CIA Hips: - the cockpit: was it old russian style or totally black painted (cause of the modifications on the electronics made by the spooks and for the use of night vision) - armamant: was the N353MA equiped with the GUA-17 like the later ones had? I don't see any on the pictures. Here are some pics of the N353MA: Does anyone have pictures of the inside of the CIA hips? Footage is hard to find! Thanks a lot for helping me out Daan Edited May 27, 2012 by dæn Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 Hi Daan, For the NVG the cockpit should be black. The original Russian colour of the cockpit was the same blue-grey as the underside of the aircraft, just as for the after (passenger) section. On the first photo it is visible that at least on the pilots side the cover over the instrument panel is grey and not black. The lower part of the windscreen is blackened out somehow, under normal conditions you should be able to see inside the cockpit here. It could be either additional armour (painted black) or just a black covering from the inside(it impers the forward-downward visibility of the pilots). By looking at your photos I can see that you will have to remove the covers from the main undercarriage triangular support struts. You need the big and 10 cm wider fuel tanks with four braces. Also the compensator on the main rotor head. Some new antennas and it seems that the roof top hatch is unpaited. The small white dot besides it should be a GPS aerial. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flankerman Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 Also the compensator on the main rotor head. You'll need to scratch-build the vibration dampers...... .... and modify the fuel tanks..... and scratch-build or modify the external winch.... Happy Hipping Ken Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 Hi Ken (the Hipman :)) , Very nice conversion you have there! I like the compensator you have built and the new fuel tanks. From the photo of this CIA heli it is not clear what the other side looks like. The big fuel tanks (four strap tanks) were introduced on some helicopters later on in their lifetime and here you find that there is a step between the KO (the heater unit) and the wider fuel tank on the right side of the fuselage. While in most cases the big four strap tanks were added at the factory and there the KO cover was modified to make a continuous increase in width to the fuel tank. On this examples you don't see the “stepâ€Â. Also the fuel level indicator had many different covers, one should check the references. There is a fuel filler cover missing on the front of the left side tank. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dæn Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 (edited) Gabor and Ken, thanks a lot for the info and helping me out! I think / assume / have a feeling the cockpit was modified, and because of the added electronics the lower windows were black painted. Looking at the photo below (not sure it's the N353MA, but it makes sense looking at the instument panel). It more another interpetation :wacko: Pic of the cockpit of which I assume is a modified hip flown by the Maverick Aviation CIA: To modify the fueltanks looks a bit difficult for me. I just picked up modeling again :). The groupbuild will start June 1st, I'll drop some pics by the time I have progress. Do you have any info on arms carried by these 'spook'-Hips? Cheers, Daan Edited May 29, 2012 by dæn Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Hi Daan, By looking at your photo of the cockpit, I would say that they have an extra armour in front of the instrument panels in a similar way as the Russians had in Afganistan. You can see two struts going forward to the central (new) instrument panel and I think they hold the armour plate and not only the panel itself. On the left, just in front of the pilot leg you could make out the edge of that additional plate. The Russians added a whole set of armour to protect the pilots from the front and from below. The floor was also covered with a piece of armour plate as well as the back of the cockpit. The rebels had a tendency to shoot out the pilots either from head on or from the back when the heli was coming out from the attack. The whole structure of the Mi-8/17 is made of very thin aluminium that you can penetrate even with a simple screwdriver. Please also note that in front of the instrument panel or to be more precise from the instrument panel forward edge all the way to the plexi glass there is a textile or artificial leather cover about parallel with the line of sight of the pilot. It is a simple snap on cover, which is also visible on your cockpit photo. In the centre of it you can see a cutout for the traditional (backup) magnetic compass. I would say the purpose of this helicopters is not to carry any significant weapons but to get in and out “special†groups of “advisers†(wasn’t this the name given to them in Vietnam?). There is some sort of visual search head under the nose of the heli. The traditional Mi-17 outrigger so typical for these helis, for the side mounted three-three pylons is not mounted on the first photo. On the second one, I think it is visible but it is difficult to make it out. It is very easy to put it on and then you could have anything from unguided missile blocks to bombs. Unfortunately you will have to do the inside of the helicopter to show it as on the photos with the clam shell doors removed. We had a special inverted U shaped trapeze fitted to some of our helis to facilitate fast delivery of troops from the air with the back doors taken off. It was US type. There could be something similar here too. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) Do you have any info on arms carried by these 'spook'-Hips? Cheers, Daan Most seem to be unarmed but here is one that may interest you: I've yet to see any of the special ops Hips mounting rocket pods or other external weapons. Pretty much every one of them have the pylons deleted. I'd love to see additional interior shots of a "special" Hip. I saw another picture of this particular helo from the rear and from that limited viewpoint, it appeared to have a standard cargo compartment / troop seats. Further up the cabin, I'm guessing that they have must have all of the ammo cans for the minigun(s) and maybe some additional avionic racks. Edited May 30, 2012 by 11bee Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Hi 11BEE, Thanks for posting this photos it is very interesting! I am not an expert on CIA but I would say the special ops Hip and the one further up are two different commands and tasks. I would say this is not with the CIA boys but I dont think we will ever know (or need to know)! This is a nice Mi-17 with some additional US equipment but these are very different from the other photo. The one with the minigun looks almost like any Russian MTV version with the extra armour around the cockpit, has the mounting points for the EVU (exhaust air cooler) and the disco light Ispanka housing. In Afganistan the Russian often took off the outriger for the pylons since it added a few hundred extra kilos to the heli and they need all the extra lifting power up in the mountains. The Minigun is in the standard position in the door, there is a Russian V shaped support for the gun (only the Russian used one of their own guns there or the grenade launcher). I see the US spec. op. helicopter also received some warning receivers and some flare launchers as well as some new antennas. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Litvyak Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 I've seen the photo in 11bee's last post; if I remember right, it was said that that was Seals or somesuch in the image. I'd still love to know a little more about the CH-178s... I wonder where they went from Graf Ignatievo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 I've seen the photo in 11bee's last post; if I remember right, it was said that that was Seals or somesuch in the image. I'd still love to know a little more about the CH-178s... I wonder where they went from Graf Ignatievo. I found the photo (and a couple others) on Military Pictures, the caption did say that the troops were ANA and US SEALs. It was taken around 2010. That was the only picture I've seen of a special ops (either Iraq or Afghan based) Hip with armament. If I ever get brave enough to tackle another Trumpy 1/35 Hip, this would probably be my subject. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Loach Driver Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 I can't remember where I got these photos (possibly Military Photos) but it looks like these Hips are armed with guns in the front door and on the opposite side behind the pilots. A Special Ops Hip with a pair of miniguns would look good. Apologies to the copyright holders of these photos. LD. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tank Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Daan, If you change from that green one to the this tan one then a lot of problems are solved and can be made very easily out of box. It has the three strap fuel tank, no dampers, and clamp shell doors are removed but not not modified. You have to remove the IR hump from the top of the tail and add some new antennas you should be set. Unless the other folks see something I am missing. HTH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) Daan, If you change from that green one to the this tan one then a lot of problems are solved and can be made very easily out of box. It has the three strap fuel tank, no dampers, and clamp shell doors are removed but not not modified. You have to remove the IR hump from the top of the tail and add some new antennas you should be set. Unless the other folks see something I am missing. HTH YYYEEEPPP you are right! Far less hustle with this one. Also the winch has been removed and the fixing points covered over. It has the gun support in the forward door and there is a standard Kalashnikov support in the last, open window on the left side. I don't know if they use AK's or have modified the holder for any other weapon. The original support holds the gun steady and has limiters on it to avoid “friendly fire” that is the over enthusiastic gunner shooting a hole in the fuel tank, the wheel or in the main rotor blades. Each support in each window had to be set to different limits. The “passenger” compartment should be the same as any Mi-8/17. They could have in addition in there the big yellow extra fuel tank for extended range but I have no idea if the US ones used it or not. I would say that this would be a CIA version. Loach Driver WWWWOOOOOWWWW, those are some nice photos of the armed US version. They have changed the cockpit armour, its not the same as the one used on Russian examples (well at least not the standard version). Nice details! The small escape hatch on the right side behind the cockpit is a bit small for a minigun and would provide limited range for the gunner. Best regards Gabor Edited May 31, 2012 by ya-gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 I'd really be interested in finding out what the purpose is of those boxes that are mounted to the external cockpit armor plating. Same goes for the large fairing under the nose of the overall green Hip that was posted above. Looks like a possible FLIR unit but it would be fixed. Not sure why they would just not add a turret mounted FLIR like the rest of the US special ops Helos. Very unusual..... If you really want to build a unusual Hip, somewhere floating around the net are some pictures of an Iraq based Hip that is modified with some very large, US designed exhaust suppressors. Lots of options out there for a unique helo model. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Looks like a possible FLIR unit but it would be fixed. Not sure why they would just not add a turret mounted FLIR like the rest of the US special ops Helos. Yes, looks like a FLIR, but I would say it is a standard turret, there is a lot of empty space in the nose of the Mi-17 in front of the instrument panels! It could fit in there. The Russians had all sorts of things put in there, even a complete GUV machine gun assembly. It is (both the CIA and the special ops) most certainly an interesting modeling subject, for me I do a standard Russian version during the Afgan war. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flankerman Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 The lack of aftermarket conversion bits and pieces has always puzzled me. I would have thought that the market would be there for some simpler resin parts like the exhaust supressors, vibration dampers, Chaff/Flare dispensers, different shaped fuel tanks, external cabin heaters etc - all fairly standard stuff. The conversion possibilities are almost endless - I've scratch-built a few, but there are loads more. Apart from Pavla's Mi-8T set to make an early first-generation Hip and a couple of ECM sets from Ciro and Armory, the Hip is ill served by the accessories industry. A resin set to make the solid-nosed and ramped Kazan Mi-8MTV5/Mi-17V5 or Ulan-Ude Mi-8AMTSh/Mi-171 would go down a storm I would have thought. Even a simple 'Salon' fuselage with rectangular windows and an airstairs would be welcome.... Ho Hum..... Ken Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 The lack of aftermarket conversion bits and pieces has always puzzled me. I would have thought that the market would be there for some simpler resin parts like the exhaust supressors, vibration dampers, Chaff/Flare dispensers, different shaped fuel tanks, external cabin heaters etc - all fairly standard stuff. The conversion possibilities are almost endless - I've scratch-built a few, but there are loads more. Apart from Pavla's Mi-8T set to make an early first-generation Hip and a couple of ECM sets from Ciro and Armory, the Hip is ill served by the accessories industry. A resin set to make the solid-nosed and ramped Kazan Mi-8MTV5/Mi-17V5 or Ulan-Ude Mi-8AMTSh/Mi-171 would go down a storm I would have thought. Even a simple 'Salon' fuselage with rectangular windows and an airstairs would be welcome.... Ho Hum..... Ken Hi Ken, According to most publishers, producers helis are not so economical to cater for. I have been asking the 4+ people to do something on the Mi-8/-17 family and the list of priorities is so long in front of it, full with fixed winged aircraft that we would need another lifetime before they get around to it. This is also the same with most aftermarket producers too. I have to say (with my designer/producer hat on) that the amount of work put into the research, development, producing the masters, “tooling up†for a good and authentic set is such that it never pays back from sold sets. The heli market is limited. We can argue if it is just “limited†or “very limited†but it has a small return and from there on you look after something more economical to do! I did a set for the Mi-17MTPB, the “Bison†version of the EW helicopter we had in the air force (sometimes referred to simply as Mi-17PP) but the actual sales would have been less than a dozen, completely and utterly uneconomical so in the end it was shelf-ed about 15 years ago. Sorry!!! Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Ken, I have to add that if you look around on the net there are some aftermarket producers who have seen business in producing detail sets for the KP or the Hobby Boss kits. The Czech Ciro Models has made different sets, both cockpit, engine and weapons, anti vibration set and so on. So you can have them and add them to your kits. I have to note that on the company site most of these products are out of production! I still say that for me it would have been a loss-loss situation with the PP set production. Maybe one day . . . Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Yes, looks like a FLIR, but I would say it is a standard turret, there is a lot of empty space in the nose of the Mi-17 in front of the instrument panels! It could fit in there. The Russians had all sorts of things put in there, even a complete GUV machine gun assembly. It is (both the CIA and the special ops) most certainly an interesting modeling subject, for me I do a standard Russian version during the Afgan war. Best regards Gabor It doesn't look like a standard FLIR turret, more like a fixed fairing w/ an optical window in the front. I'd love to see some closeups of one of these helos. With regard to aftermarket, there are slim pickings. PART makes a decent (but pricey) PE series for the Hip. I used the exterior set but found that many of the parts were not a big improvement over the kit ones. The one item in the set that was nice where a complete set of 6 old-style flare dispensers that were mounted under the tailboom. Cobra also offers a resin set for the Trumpy Hind. Many of the parts (late-style side mounted flare pods, exhaust suppressors and a few others) will work just fine on a Hip. With regard to doing a standard Russian Hip from their Afghan adventure, feel free to start one! I've enjoyed working on mine, need some other folks to jump in as well: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Litvyak Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 I too think a Mi-17V-5/Mi-8MTV-5 and a Mi-8P conversion set would be brilliant, buuuuut... how many are/were in use? There are so many 'bigger' subjects that aren't catered to. So I think it's probable that the only conversion sets are made by Evergreen, and come as flat white sheets... On that note, it strikes me as a bit amusing that a Mi-17V-5 conversion is probably easier to do than a Mi-8P... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 With regard to doing a standard Russian Hip from their Afghan adventure, feel free to start one! The only difference is that my Mi-8mtv is in 72nd scale just as most of my other subjects. Yee, I would also like to see some more on those special ops and CIA Hips but I dont think there is a real chance of having a complete walkaround both inside and outside with hundreds of photos of just one particular airframe. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Litvyak Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Yee, I would also like to see some more on those special ops and CIA Hips but I dont think there is a real chance of having a complete walkaround both inside and outside with hundreds of photos of just one particular airframe. Best regards Gabor I think I'm just counting myself lucky that a few exterior shots of the CH-178 exist, enough to know how to paint one up from the outside. I'd *love* to see more, but given the ridiculous level of secrecy around them, I doubt we'll get to see many more photos for another 50 years or so. What I wouldn't do for someone at Graf Ignatievo to shoot a couple of interior pics... just to know if it has two consoles or the one big glass console in the cockpit, and a general arrangement view of the cargo compartment! :P Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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