Churchills b24 'Commando'

[jamesrolfe]

Hello all,

I have an ol revell 1/48 B24d that I'm planning to build as Commando, Churchills personnal transport.

Trouble is, I am having difficulty in finding decent pictures of the plane. I know it was unarmed, but does anyone know what the tail gun position looked like? Also, if anyone can print me some decals or tell me how too I'd be eternally happy.

It had quite a funky colour scheme i believe, flat black and dark grey possibly.

Ta

James

[jrallman]

I have only found these pics, not a great help but better than nothing. Its hard to see the tail on the second pic but it looks like, at least before the plane was modified with a solid nose and single tail, that the original turrets were still there, just with the guns removed. It looks like both the dorsal and tail turrets are in place with no guns. As for decals, I would do it but they are white or light color, and I dont have an alps printer so I can't help there. HTH

[Steve N]

"Commando" (Liberator II AL504) was one of the early B-24s with round engine nacelles (no turbosuperchargers) and Curtiss electric props. In the pic above, you can see the tail gunners station appears to be the early type with sliding doors and a handheld gun. That's a navigator's astrodome just behind the cockpit. It may or may not have an upper turret..on the early B-24s, the turret was mounted just behind the wing, and the area is blocked in the pic. The paint scheme was standard RAF bomber camo; Dark Earth and Dark Green on top, with the underside, fuselage sides, and tails painted Night (black.) Oddly, the full pic shows the plane with a light colored underside, but it was obviously black in the shot with the nose art.

The plane was later heavilly modified by Consolidated, with a single tail and stretched fuselage, similar to a PB4Y-2 Privateer, and painted overall silver. But I believe I read that Churchill never flew in it after the mods. It disappeared during a transatlantic flight in March, 1945.

SN

Edited April 3, 2009 by Steve N

[agboak]

The recent Air Britain book "The Liberator in RAF and Commonwealth service" has a clear early picture of AL504 - it lacks the dorsal turret but had the raised fairing for the Boulton Paul rear turret. It appears to have this turret, but a fin obscures the view. Camouflage was standard British as described above. Photos of LB30s show the raised fairing gone, and a simple hand-held tail position which is rather dust-bin shaped - semi-circular in plan view with a simple cylinder cut out for the guns, with a few small glazed side windows at the side. LB30s on the Atlantic Ferry Service show this shape but with no gun cutout. This is what appears to be fitted to Commando.

Note that LB30As had a shorter nose than the B-24D.

Quick edit: AL504 was an LB 30 or Liberator Mk.II, the short noses were on LB30A, Liberator Mk.1 Other Liberator Mk.1s were LB 30Bs (as B-24A standard). Yes, the terminology is confusing.

Edited April 3, 2009 by agboak

[Steve N]

Looking at the two pics, I don't think the second is AL504. It has the shorter nose and Hamilton Standard props of a Liberator I (LB-30.) The pic of "Commando" clearly shows it with the longer nose and Curtiss electric props of the Liberator II.

SN

[agboak]

The high demarcation of a light underside on the outer engine also suggests this is not AL504: the scheme is typical of those applied by Scottish Aviation to Mk.1s. There is however another (ground) picture of Commando/AL504 in the Air Britain book, and the nose doesn't seem as long as in the other photo! Foreshortening, no doubt ....

Apologies if editing of my previous posting makes your comment slightly odd: I thought it fitted slightly better there (and took the chance to remove an error in mine).

Edited April 3, 2009 by agboak

[Steve N]

I'll dig through my references. I'm almost sure I've got a book that shows a full pic of AL504 (it may be the same one you're talking about.) If I find it I'll scan and post it.

Interestingly, I've read that the three-foot longer nose introduced on the Liberator II really didn't have anything to do with engineering or aerodynamics. The story goes that the designer just thought it looked better than the "stubby" nose of the earlier Libs.

SN

[agboak]

I've been looking for the reason the nose was extended, but can't find a description. However, if you think about the cost and effort in the drawing office, toolmakers, production line etc: you can guarantee it wasn't just done on a whim of a designer! For a start, it has to be more expensive than a shorter nose, so what would the customer think?

Where do people get these silly ideas from? April 1st magazines?

[B-17 guy]

THREADJACK!!!! Jrallman...You make decals? Have a go at making fuddy duddy decals in 48th? PM me.

Edited April 5, 2009 by B-17 guy

[Steve N]

From Squadron/Signal's "B-24 Liberator In Action" by Larry Davis:

"The Liberator II was the first B-24 to incorporate the three-foot stretched nose called for by (Consolidated President) Rueben Fleet early in the Liberator's development. When Fleet had seen the the finished XB-24 prototype he had been disappointed in the esthetics of his progeny and ordered a three-foot extension into the nose. Not because of any problems with aircraft's aerodynamics or to incorporate more or newer equipment, but simply because Fleet thught the nose "...doesn't look right! Too stubby!" He had his engineers add the so-called three-foot "steady section" to bring out the gracefulness of the basic design. The addition of this three-foot nose section in the Liberator II not only increased the gracefulness of the Liberator design but the extra room would become increasingly important as the war progressed and additional equipment was added."

So I wasn't quite correct..it wasn't the whim of the designer, but the company president.

SN

Edited April 7, 2009 by Steve N

[Windswept40]

I interviewed pilots of the Quiet Boys in 2002 and one of the pilots flew inside the Commando, after it was outfitted with the single-fin. He said instead of guns, they painted broom handles black to mimic the gun barrels. He shared they looked legitimate, but made Churchill extremely vulnerable. He said speed was more important than armament. They soldiered the bomb doors closed and the cat-walk was removed- not sure about that detail shared. The interior was covered in a thick material almost like carpeting, and Churchill had a large leather chair with his initials on it. He also had a brandy snifter cradle that was placed on a free-pivoting cradle that kept his drink from spilling. Cigars were also on hand. 

[Robertson]

I've always hated the Monogram D with the nose glass having curved sides instead of flat sides: Now I finally see the shorter nose glass on Commando did have curved sides! So the Monogram nose needs to be shortened 3 feet to be accurate! This does not stop there: The Monogram has an inaccurate sloped spine making the rear fuselage shallower by 4-5 inches, exactly as early B-24s. But the kit does not have the raised fuselage fairing just under the tailplanes... That raised "fin support" fairing was on all shallow tail early B-24s (which is easiest to see on photos of the currently flying LB-30), and it is probably feasible to add it to the Monogram kit!!! Now last cherry on the cake: Lone Star Models has just announced a conversion of the Monogram to the early round nacelle engine versions, which would finally make the Monogram's nose glass, and its shallow sloped tail spine, accurate to use...

[The Keeper]

ESCI has the nose decal on one of their 1/72 scale sheets. You would have to enlarge and print it. Let me look through my collection and find the number.

HTH

K

It's on sheet #30 Bristol Beaufighter. It also has some RAF pennants and badges on it. ESCI did a credible job (for the era) on these sheets; looks like they're screen printed as opposed to other manufacturer's dot/matrix jobs. They threw fine nose art in on sheets that had nothing to do with the main theme and it was up to you to research and find the proper codes etc. Had big dreams of building many of them but the project has been supplanted by more modern production.

HTH

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by The Keeper
New info