Rivet counting/accuracy forum/web site ?

[Wayne S]

It strikes me that most discussions that get out of hand are those concerning planes that people have some deep seated man-love for, or perhaps work on in real life. It seems some of these modelers feel that if you don't have their passion for that particular aircraft, you are somehow and inferior modeler, if not person. If its an F-14, F-16, Me-109 or Mustang, the slightest hint of disrespect or "it looks like" comment gets the ball rolling. I get the feeling that the Mig-21 thread went along OK because the Mig not the subject of affection like those previously mentioned. Change the context of the Mig-21 thread to F-16, and all perdition would likely have broken loose. I have always liked the idea of prefacing the thread with "for rivet counters", its lets me know right up front that I want to skip it. I appreciate a good review as anyone, but too often those modelers with a deeper passion for the subject will jump in with personal comments such as "its unbuildable" or "totally inaccurate and not worth building", when they are talking about an issue that 99.9 percent of us would care less about.

I never got the Idea of people even wanting to be called " Rivet counters " The term started out and or is a derogatory statement to people being to Anal about things. Might as well of been " Rivet Nazis ".

There is not a single accurate model out there. They can't be, all one can do is represent or intemperate the subject the best you can. Depending on areas that the majority know about or care to know about will most likely be the areas that get the most attention. That is a given.

Most people I see that say something looks good enough, are people who have worked on or been around the aircraft. If I am building something and the person said it looks good enough to them, I am glad to hear it, not upset to hear it.

Anyways, Those who want to be called "Rivet Counter " possibly should look into another phrase to call them selfs.

Rivet Counter is not Accurate in it self, Possibly " Fastener Counters " ?

I, my self never got into the click of things of needing to belong to a group, to have a self Identity so what do I know anyway :D

[Wayne S]

Rex,,,,,,,,,,

I agree with alot of what you said in your post, There is no actual expression to written words for " most of us "

I have never written a book or went to school to learn the best way to express my way through words. Heck for me using words in 1st 2nd and 3rd party is hard enough.

I feel like that forum is more to show your completed work and criticize (in a good and constructive way) more of the build, not the kit. For example how to improve on the paint and all of that stuff. If people doesn't tare it apart, there are maybe to reasons for that:

1: You are building too good.

2: People sometimes found it hard to be honest and present errors they see with paint and so on, so that no one will be hurt in a way. (and i can understand and relate to that)

It is much easier to criticize (at least i think so) an unbuild kit, because we basically harm no one with the criticizing. Some people might be much more sensitive to critique, and isn't really aiming after that when they post in Critique corner.

Although, i am on same page as you Dax, i want to be criticized, it is then i learn how to improve. And that is why i post rather detailed WIP threads, so that i can receive tips and help so the build will be at another level than without any help.

I never got the critic corner or how people see it, I to see it now has a finished subject forum. Possibly Steve or people can take it into their selfs. TO use both in progress and critic corner for builds? People who want to be criticized and build the best representation they can, could be put into critics as builds to?

I mean, if one is to criticize, is it not best to do it in the build stage so things can be undone or built better?

[thegoodsgt]

I'm not a rivet counter, but I appreciate what they bring to the hobby. Fortunately, I'm level-headed enough to take their assessments and opinions based on what I deem important.

[Laurent]

There's no need for a separate forum to discuss models.

By forum I mean 'Jet Modeling', 'Props', etc. So I would see a new forum but with strict rules. A post would be:

- title that describes the issue

- real life vs model pics, eventually a text line explaining the issue

- how to solve the issue; if it's not solvable, how to minimize it; if there's an aftermarket thingy that addresses the issue, say it and even better, show it integrated on a model

No opinions given without pics and references. The "I've worked all my life on the plane all my life so you'd better trust me" argumentation would not be accepted neither the good enoughers argumentation. Pics so that the reader can think for himself. Imposing ourselves such rules could be useful. Checking the application of these rules on a single forum would be easier.

some have asked that "rivet counting" be backed up with photos and/or drawings,,,,,but,,,both are copyrighted to the owners,,,,,and for me to produce a drawing to back up my claims,,,,well,,,,for that, I could draw anything

If the photos are copyrighted, links could do perhaps as long as they point to a permanent ressource (no Imageshack pics)

I never got the Idea of people even wanting to be called " Rivet counters " The term started out and or is a derogatory statement to people being to Anal about things. Might as well of been " Rivet Nazis ".

I'm not strictly speaking a rivet counter (I don't care much about panel lines) but I appreciate shape accuracy specially in the nose, canopy and intakes areas.

Here are example of posts that I believe some people would find useful (if they care of course).

Title: 1/48 Esci/Italeri Mirage F1 - Flat glass pane of windshield too wide

Pics: Build (Nikolas Hakime "El Hereje", ARC gallery): http://www.arcair.com/Gal7/6901-7000/gal69...-Hakime/03.shtm

Real world (Airliners): http://www.airliners.net/photo/France---Ai...F1CT/1456051/M/

Mitigating the issue

Sand the vertical flat pane frames and make new ones (giving top and bottom frames spacing would be useful)

Aftermarket addressing the issue

Scaleworx Mirage F1AZ conversion does: http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index....t&p=1655711

No other know correction.

or

Title: 1/72 Academy F-14 - Nose too short

Pics: Build (Giovanni Chirico, ARC gallery): http://www.arcair.com/Gal1/801-900/Gal846_...co/dscn0296.jpg

Real world (Airliners): http://www.airliners.net/photo/USA---Navy/...mcat/1488139/M/

Mitigating the issue

Cut the nose and add spacers (I don't know how much and where)

Aftermarket addressing the issue

Unknown

Edited May 24, 2009 by Laurent

[janman]

The rivet counters of ARC are my Gods.

When we talk about uncompleted model kits, the discussion inevitably revolves around the accuracy issue. Like it or not, it's the essential part of modeling.

[Huey Gunner]

The rivet counters of ARC are my Gods.

Mine too. I love rivet counters. I had no intention of getting that new 1/32 F-80C until Harold said he was going to make a cockpit for. Both are in my stash now. I love looking at Zactomans stuff though I don't have any of the kits. (Though I almost got Mig-29 just to get his stuff) There are a lot of masters out there. Mr Sworld and I do the same thing as far as purchasing a kit. Aires? KMC? Czek? Eduard? I have tons of it. I might have come across as not liking "rivet counters". Nothing can be farther than the truth. It's the conversations that turn uncivil I could do without.

[Patrick_Nevin]

[snip]

There is not a single accurate model out there. They can't be, all one can do is represent or intemperate the subject the best you can. Depending on areas that the majority know about or care to know about will most likely be the areas that get the most attention. That is a given.

[snip]

A given, but not necessarily an absolute. Without a doubt in the time (off and on ) I've been making models, the standards have raised out of all recognition. Increasing availability of good reference has driven up our quality expectations dramatically.

What niggles me is knowing something is wrong, and not fixing it. I guess ignorance might be bliss - I believe this is where half the arguments come from! - but I'd rather know a kit's flaws from someone's expert knowledge and make (hopefully) reasoned decisions around that. Go, boys!

Patrick

[Wayne S]

Laurent I think I understand now what your getting at. I would quote you also, but trying to keep this short.

A given, but not necessarily an absolute. Without a doubt in the time (off and on :wacko:) I've been making models, the standards have raised out of all recognition. Increasing availability of good reference has driven up our quality expectations dramatically.

What niggles me is knowing something is wrong, and not fixing it. I guess ignorance might be bliss - I believe this is where half the arguments come from! - but I'd rather know a kit's flaws from someone's expert knowledge and make (hopefully) reasoned decisions around that. Go, boys!

Patrick

Sounds like what you guys would like is to have some type of Bible for specific aircraft.

Showing what kits are out there, compare them to the real thing and or differences over the years and show the kits down falls. show how to fix the problems etc. in the bible and after market that is out there.

Then it would be up-to the end user how far they want to go with the model.

[Darius at home]

By forum I mean 'Jet Modeling', 'Props', etc. So I would see a new forum but with strict rules. A post would be:

- title that describes the issue

- real life vs model pics, eventually a text line explaining the issue

- how to solve the issue; if it's not solvable, how to minimize it; if there's an aftermarket thingy that addresses the issue, say it and even better, show it integrated on a model

No opinions given without pics and references. The "I've worked all my life on the plane all my life so you'd better trust me" argumentation would not be accepted neither the good enoughers argumentation. Pics so that the reader can think for himself. Imposing ourselves such rules could be useful. Checking the application of these rules on a single forum would be easier.

If the photos are copyrighted, links could do perhaps as long as they point to a permanent ressource (no Imageshack pics)

I'm not strictly speaking a rivet counter (I don't care much about panel lines) but I appreciate shape accuracy specially in the nose, canopy and intakes areas.

Here are example of posts that I believe some people would find useful (if they care of course).

Title: 1/48 Esci/Italeri Mirage F1 - Flat glass pane of windshield too wide

Pics: Build (Nikolas Hakime "El Hereje", ARC gallery): http://www.arcair.com/Gal7/6901-7000/gal69...-Hakime/03.shtm

Real world (Airliners): http://www.airliners.net/photo/France---Ai...F1CT/1456051/M/

Mitigating the issue

Sand the vertical flat pane frames and make new ones (giving top and bottom frames spacing would be useful)

Aftermarket addressing the issue

Scaleworx Mirage F1AZ conversion does: http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index....t&p=1655711

No other know correction.

or

Title: 1/72 Academy F-14 - Nose too short

Pics: Build (Giovanni Chirico, ARC gallery): http://www.arcair.com/Gal1/801-900/Gal846_...co/dscn0296.jpg

Real world (Airliners): http://www.airliners.net/photo/USA---Navy/...mcat/1488139/M/

Mitigating the issue

Cut the nose and add spacers (I don't know how much and where)

Aftermarket addressing the issue

Unknown

That's all very nice, but how many rivets did it actually have?

Darius

PS - perhaps reviews could have a "Rivet Count" rating for accuracy.

[SBARC]

Critique Corner was set up so modellers could get constructive feedback about their models....learn alternative techniques that might have given them better results......and therefore a better quality model. The Critique Corner forum has been mainly used for completed models but it could easily be used for one phase in the build process where a modeller posts photo(s) and asks for input how to do a certain technique or step in the build process.

As for the accuracy of the latest model kit......I am 100% in favor of folks starting threads and discussing the accuracy issues of kits and perhaps offering their own constructive comments about how to address the accuracy issues of a certain kit. These sort of discussions are what makes this hobby grow and is very much how this hobby is addressed when it moves into the hands of adults.

These threads do sometimes stumble when some people jump in with a non-constructive "drive by" comments with no real intention of moving the topic forward. These topics also stumble when you get a person that has a grudge against a certain manufacturer....they will then grab every chance to bash that manufacturers latest offering without ever offering constructive solutions to the accuracy issues of a certain kit.

For myself ....I love these threads........they are what make this hobby enjoyable to some of us that become detail obsessed on our latest model.

If you guys want an example of how to move these accuracy threads forward......do as Zactoman does......Chris and many others have a very good understanding of how to conduct themselves in these accuracy threads. Being civil to each other is the key.

Finally........here's another item that might be of interest. The new ARC Air site will permit you to leave your own comments at the bottom of articles on ARC.......including review articles. It is my hope to get every single product into the ARC database in the review section. Then you'll be able to leave your own comments about what you liked and disliked about the fit and accuracy of a particular product. Over time, each product will have numerous comments and will permit people to form an opinion about a product before they decide to buy that particular product.

[Patrick_Nevin]

Finally........here's another item that might be of interest. The new ARC Air site will permit you to leave your own comments at the bottom of articles on ARC.......including review articles. It is my hope to get every single product into the ARC database in the review section. Then you'll be able to leave your own comments about what you liked and disliked about the fit and accuracy of a particular product. Over time, each product will have numerous comments and will permit people to form an opinion about a product before they decide to buy that particular product.

Steve,

This sounds way posey. Are you declaring ETA (aspirational, otherwise) on this at all, sir?

Patrick

PS Do they have May Bank Holidays elsewhere than the UK? Got splendidly sunburnt yesterday and it's lookin' good for another scorcher today. Perfect for just about anything (well, other than ice sculpture )

[SBARC]

Steve,

This sounds way posey. Are you declaring ETA (aspirational, otherwise) on this at all, sir?

Patrick

PS Do they have May Bank Holidays elsewhere than the UK? Got splendidly sunburnt yesterday and it's lookin' good for another scorcher today. Perfect for just about anything (well, other than ice sculpture )

ETA?....well I've got over 6000 articles inputted into the database so far....6000 more to go. I expect the project to be ready before the end of the year. Each line of text and each photo in every article has to be checked after it is entered into the database.....so it is a slow process. If I'm doing good I can do about 8 articles per hour.

[Patrick_Nevin]

Each line of text and each photo in every article has to be checked after it is entered into the database.....so it is a slow process. If I'm doing good I can do about 8 articles per hour.

As ever, respect and admiration.

[Laurent]

Finally........here's another item that might be of interest. The new ARC Air site will permit you to leave your own comments at the bottom of articles on ARC.......including review articles. It is my hope to get every single product into the ARC database in the review section. Then you'll be able to leave your own comments about what you liked and disliked about the fit and accuracy of a particular product. Over time, each product will have numerous comments and will permit people to form an opinion about a product before they decide to buy that particular product.

Interesting. Will there be a search engine that will scan both the web site and the forums ?

I intend to start an accuracy topic on the Fujimi MiG-21. The topic structure would be the following

Post #1: nose too high

Post #2: wrong windscreen frames

Post #3: inaccurate airbrakes positioning (rear airbrake can be lowered but not front airbrakes)

...

Shall I put it in "Research Corner" or "Jet Modeling" ?

[illithid00]

Interesting. Will there be a search engine that will scan both the web site and the forums ?

I intend to start an accuracy topic on the Fujimi MiG-21. The topic structure would be the following

Post #1: nose too high

Post #2: wrong windscreen frames

Post #3: inaccurate airbrakes positioning (rear airbrake can be lowered but not front airbrakes)

...

Shall I put it in "Research Corner" or "Jet Modeling" ?

It's a jet model, so I'd say put it in Jet Modeling. But that's just my thought.

[homerojr]

While you´re arguing, I´m building kits...

[richter111]

I am one of those fellows that gets excited finding a kit in a certain scale.

If someone came out with a 1/32 F-106 I would be uber excited. Unless something was major wrong, I would be fairly happy.

BUT

when I pay big money for a kit, I expect the major parts to be right. Kinda old fashioned in that I expect value for my money.

And as for people like Zactoman, he sees things otherworldly, I mean the detail and attention he bestows on a model is astounding. I can honestly say if I had a project I wanted looked over, and KNEW it would be done right, Chris would be my man.

[john53]

You guys know Gaston?

[madmike]

Gents

This is a great thread because most people are putting forward balanced and non judgemental points of view.

However I have removed posts that have been deliberately written to cause derision and arguments. Lets keep it civil please.

We are all scale modellers. How we approach that fact is entirely personal. There is absolutely no need for those who approach the hobby one way to pour scorn and derision over those who differ in that approach. Keep that in mind please.

[MoFo]

All things considered, probably better off not posted.

Edited May 27, 2009 by MoFo

[Laurent]

While you´re arguing, I´m building kits...

So am I. Hopelessly inaccurate kits: Matchbox Tornado F3, Airfix F-14. But that doesn't prevent me of thinking about a 1/72 Italeri/ICM MiG-29 topic (discussing the canopy), a 1/72 Zvezda MiG-23 topic (canopy again), etc. It's the issue solving/mitigating part that is long to brew: saying "oh my god, that nose is ugly !" is easy, reducing the ugliness is another thing.

Edited May 27, 2009 by Laurent

[Gene K]

All things considered, probably better off not posted.

I don't think so - you had valid points to share - all of which were eloquently pertinent to the discussion (and which I agreed with). I don't visit ARC as much as I did in the past, and it appears there's a new, higher level of "moderating/enforcement" that I don't necessarily agree with, but respect that it's the moderators' judgment/interpretation to do so.

Gene K

[Martinsson]

In my opinion, the Jet Modeling forum is here to provide a space for discussions about jet modeling. It is a discussion forum which means that different opinions sometimes are vented. Why would it even exist if we couldn´t ask questions related to jet modeling (and of course other topics at different Forums)? To me, one of the greatest attractions with ARC is that this is one place where I can get in depth information about kits, after market sets and aircraft. This is a big part of my personal development as a modeler. In the In-Progress and Critique Corner, I learn much about different materials and techniques. Also a big part of my development as modeler. Sometimes I see good techniques or critique of a model/after market set that I do not bother with. I make those choices and I expect that everyone else visiting ARC is doing the same. After all, it is the ever ongoing exchange of thoughts that makes this Forum attractive.

The dynamics of these discussion forums is fantastic. I find it extremely valuable to get access to all this knowledge that never stops to amaze me. However, sometimes, for various reasons, I find threads that goes out of hand and develop into the more negative and is perhaps un-polite in tone. When that bothers me, I just stop reading and shift to another subject. And that is, in my opinion, very much the exception to the rule.

Finally, I hope that people who don´t want to learn all the details about a kit doesn´t get offended when others who want to know is in deep discussions. If you are happy to use the kits as they are, that is fine by me. It is a hobby and the main thing is that we have fun. Just stand by your decision and don´t get drawn into AMS and blame it on the forum.

Martinsson

[PNW_Modeler]

So am I. Hopelessly inaccurate kits: Matchbox Tornado F3, Airfix F-14.

Gotcha beat! I have a 1:32nd Testors F-117 and 1:32nd Revell MiG-29 (without Zactoman's correction....GASP!)

I have been quite vocal about rivet counters in the past. I will say this and it will be my last word on the topic.

Rivet counters in general are good for our hobby.....guys like Zacto and AMS Resins....they do nothing but improve our models and I appreciate their efforts.

My biggest contention with rivet counters is when they nitpick and bash a finished build simply because it was not made with the latest and greatest resin correction set, or the builder chose not to open the airbrakes and drop the slats because the F-xxx always has drooped slats and open airbrakes when parked, so on and so forth.

[janman]

My biggest contention with rivet counters is when they nitpick and bash a finished build simply because it was not made with the latest and greatest resin correction set, or the builder chose not to open the airbrakes and drop the slats because the F-xxx always has drooped slats and open airbrakes when parked, so on and so forth.

That's a good point and obviously everyone can build their model just as they want. After all, this is a hobby and a source of joy for most of us.

Then again, I can understand the critique as well, but only when it's done in a good manner and in the right forum, in other words in the Critique Corner forum.

For me a scale model is as accurate miniature version of the real object as possible. I guess that's the "origina"l definition as well. If the slats are dropped on a real aircraft when parked, shouldn't they be dropped on a scale model as well - *if* we are talking about a scale model in its truest sense?

Naturally, a 100% true scale model is an impossibility. Some kit inaccuracies are almost impossible to correct and even the material, plastic, doesn't allow all the parts to be in exactly the right scale. These are the things that we must live with, but if there are things that can be corrected, I'm one of those that try to accomplish that. In order to to have as accurate scale model as possible on my shelf. But that's only me and even I don't always follow that principle.