jmel Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) Another great fighter squadron resigned to the history books. Luckily, I was able to visit with them a few times over the years to shoot their jets and people. A great group of folks. Edited September 13, 2009 by jmel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jmel Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) . Edited September 13, 2009 by jmel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jmel Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) . Edited September 13, 2009 by jmel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jmel Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) . Edited September 13, 2009 by jmel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tsculton Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Thanks for the great pics of "Lindberghs Finest". I was lucky enough to pull up just in time to catch the last take off and flyby. An 86 year old history book closed to today. 31 years flying jets built right across the runway. It just wont be any fun anymore if I cant go in the back yard and watch the jets fly over the house as they land, or listening to the dishes rattle when they take off. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GreyGhost Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Thanks Jake, a very nice send off ... I'm going to miss hearing then seeing them overhead as they would "turn and burn", popping flares while training in the art of ACM ... We'd average about one sonic boom a week by these fine folks and I for one am going to miss that ... a lot ! Gregg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jinxter13 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Thanks Jake for more than one...first thanx for the as always outstanding pix, and two......I have been pulling what hair I have left out trying to get a precise pattern on the Eagle Camou and your pix show that there is not distinct specific pattern just a basic generalization. They are not rubber stamped so as long as I'm in the ball park its correct ;) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
redgriffins38 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Very Sad to see that unit go. I can remeber as a kid going down on the ramp with my father and looking at the aircraft. That is when they had the F-4's. But on an up note they will be still flying in one of the most advanced flying computers out there! Not a fighters but still very cool! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kstater94 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 OK I gotta say These guys aren't "gone" They are now an associate unit to the B-2 flying 509th at Whiteman. They are still fying an airplane. They still have an identity, and they are still around. You're talking like the unit no longer exists (which is misleading) - John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jmel Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 OKI gotta say These guys aren't "gone" They are now an associate unit to the B-2 flying 509th at Whiteman. They are still fying an airplane. They still have an identity, and they are still around. You're talking like the unit no longer exists (which is misleading) - John Sing that song to the guys who no longer have jobs and see how well it goes over. Think the other ANG units that have been integrated into the ACC wings are happy with the arrangement? Go to Richmond and Langley and try to find more than three or four 192FW guys who think they got a fair deal. They don't have their own airplanes, they don't have their own personnel, they don't have their own base, and they don't have their own identity. The vast majority of guys at St. Louis chose retirement or leaving the USAF rather than move their lives and families over to Whiteman. The 131st was regarded as the most experienced F-15 wing in the USAF. That experience is now gone, and the USAF is less capable because of it. As far as the big picture is concerned, other ANG squadrons have lost their flying missions altogether, and have moved on to other missions. The 181FW has excelled at their new mission, and some would argue that they have faired better than the 131st will. Others will argue that at least the 131st keeps a quasi-flying mission. Time will tell who is right. Yes, the 131st Fighter Wing is gone. The 110th Fighter Squadron is gone. There are no more military aircraft at St. Louis, and there are no more "SL" coded aircraft. I fully understand you can't keep aging fighters flying forever, and something has to be done to consolidate the fleet and save money for the next generation of fighters. I don't know what the perfect solution is, but to pretend a long-storied squadron still exists when it doesn't is more than misleading. It's just plain denial. Jake Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jmel Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 Thanks for the great pics of "Lindberghs Finest". I was lucky enough to pull up just in time to catch the last take off and flyby. An 86 year old history book closed to today. 31 years flying jets built right across the runway. It just wont be any fun anymore if I cant go in the back yard and watch the jets fly over the house as they land, or listening to the dishes rattle when they take off. I hear ya'. Sucks. I guess that's what they call progress, right? Thanks Jake, a very nice send off ... Gregg You're welcome, Gregg. I have been pulling what hair I have left out trying to get a precise pattern on the Eagle Camou and your pix show that there is not distinct specific pattern just a basic generalization. Nah, just get it in the ballpark and you'll be in great shape. Glad to help! Jake Quote Link to post Share on other sites
messy60 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 beautiful pics as always Jake. a fitting farewell, and some very poignant shots. Jason Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sig Saur & Son Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Does not make sense. It's like the 111th at Willow Grove. One of the most experienced A-10 units out there and they take away their Warthogs while converting another unit with no A-10 experience to Warthogs. Guess that's why they call it foggy bottom. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kstater94 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Sing that song to the guys who no longer have jobs and see how well it goes over. Think the other ANG units that have been integrated into the ACC wings are happy with the arrangement? Go to Richmond and Langley and try to find more than three or four 192FW guys who think they got a fair deal. They don't have their own airplanes, they don't have their own personnel, they don't have their own base, and they don't have their own identity. The vast majority of guys at St. Louis chose retirement or leaving the USAF rather than move their lives and families over to Whiteman. The 131st was regarded as the most experienced F-15 wing in the USAF. That experience is now gone, and the USAF is less capable because of it.As far as the big picture is concerned, other ANG squadrons have lost their flying missions altogether, and have moved on to other missions. The 181FW has excelled at their new mission, and some would argue that they have faired better than the 131st will. Others will argue that at least the 131st keeps a quasi-flying mission. Time will tell who is right. Yes, the 131st Fighter Wing is gone. The 110th Fighter Squadron is gone. There are no more military aircraft at St. Louis, and there are no more "SL" coded aircraft. I fully understand you can't keep aging fighters flying forever, and something has to be done to consolidate the fleet and save money for the next generation of fighters. I don't know what the perfect solution is, but to pretend a long-storied squadron still exists when it doesn't is more than misleading. It's just plain denial. Jake Why don't you come to McConnell Jake Come visit my Dad's NON-FLYING Air National Guard unit Talk to Dave in Indiana about his NON-FLYING unit BOTH units had a proud history flying aircraft and you know just as well as I do about the other units that don't have flying commitments anymore However, requirements changed just like any position in the military, when new systems come on board, jobs sometimes have to change. However, as far as the unit is concerned, you still very much have your core areas intact, they've just changed in organization slightly. A unit being gone means that they no longer reside ANYWHERE. Although my Dad's unit has changed it's mission, it doesn't mean that it's gone. And THAT is my point. You make it seem as if noone wears the patch of the 131st or the 110th anymore (which is incorrect). They just have different letters after the number. To say they are gone (like the others) dismisses them and appears to show no appreciation for their current mission. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GreyGhost Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 We all agree they are not gone but they are out of the Fighter Business and they no longer operate out of STL ... While I think it's great that they are still a unit that has a flight mission and being the only ANG B-2A unit also carries a nice amount of weight to it too ... There's just something different and sad in the fact that they no longer fly fighters ... And, no, I'm not trying to minimalize any unit's mission, they are all important ... Gregg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Neeko Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I get what you mean, Jake... It is the end of an era and I for one am happy you got a chance to document it before they ceased to function as a fighter squadron. Top-notch pictures as always! Not sure why you are being flamed, tho... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jmel Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 You and I are looking at this from two different points of view, John, and we'll probably never agree. I'm not looking at it from a technical point of view. Sure, the patch will be worn by somebody (although it doesn't say Fighter Wing, which further emphasizes my point that they're gone), and there will be a new building at Whiteman for the 131st. What I care about is the people. Those two guys pictured above are both extremely high-time Eagle guys. One retired a couple months ago; he's gone. The other went to Great Falls, where he'll retire shortly; he's gone. The DCC strapping in the pilot has left the USAF. He's got three kids, a wife, and a home in St. Louis, where there is no longer a job for him wrenching F-15s. He's gone. There were about 1200 people in the 131st Fighter Wing. Far less than half have gone to Whiteman. Of the 30 pilots assigned, 20 have already retired. That leaves roughly 700 people who will vehemently, adamantly, disagree with your statements above. And what's left at St. Louis? No more mission, whether flying or othewise. The unit and mission is GONE from St. Louis, no matter how you look at it. I'm not intentionally dismissing the 131st Bomb Wing. I'm merely saying it will be run by an entirely different group of people from a base not in St. Louis. I've been to McConnell a few times. I don't know what unit your dad was in. 184th? When his mission changed, did his unit leave McConnell? Was he forced to choose between his home/family and a new mission elsewhere? If you're referring to Dave Cook and the 181st, I've talked to him a bunch about his squadron, both before they transitioned to the intelligence mission and since. I've also talked to the Wing and Squadron commanders about it at great length. None of them were especially happy, but at least they got to stay in their homes in Terre Haute rather than move across the state. Sure, missions change in the military all the time, and military members know that all too well. ACC people, I'm sure, have no sympathy for the Guard guys or the situation the Missouri ANG folks have found themselves in. My problem with the situation isn't that they lost their Eagles, or even their flying mission. It's the fact that the St. Louis-based squadron is GONE. It sucks all the way around, John, and I don't pretend to know the answer. This isn't the first round of base closures the US military has faced, and it won't be the last. It'll suck the next time, too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tsculton Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 (edited) OK, I have to add my 2 cents in on this conversation and hopefully that will be it. We all know that the Missouri Air National Guard still exsist. They are in St. Joe flying C-130s and at Whiteman flying B-2s. True, Very True. And no one is dening that the unit is still alive abeit in another form or that the same or even worse has happened to other units across the country. Again very true. BUT, for 86 years there has been a unit right here in St. Louis. And THAT unit is gone. For 31 years that unit flew jets built just across the runway from thier base. The fighters based at Lambert are gone. There was pride in knowing that the "HOME" team flew a "HOME" jet. That is gone. The squadron is GONE when you live in St. Louis. When you live, like I do, close enough to the airport to have your house shaken when them boys lit up those afterburners - they are gone. When you worked in St. Louis as part of the ST. LOUIS based 131FW - YOUR JOB IS GONE. Fewer than half the people are at Whiteman. Some of the guys are in Montana now or retired or at Whiteman. And yeah we in Missouri are the only guard units flying the B-2. But I'll tell you. I was at Whiteman last weekend. I was there for a good 7 hours or so. I saw several B-2s, there were 6 out at one time, and not ONE of them says 131st BW or MOANG on it. There is a since of pride when you see a pic of a jet with that SL on it when you are from St. Louis. There was a since of pride when you saw a pic of a SL coded jet in a magazine or on the cover of a book like Jakes F-15 book. That is now a part of history. Sure it was a great history, and we are proud of it, we will cherrish it, BUT we are sad to see it go away. Life will go on, no one is asking for a pity party, we are just paying respects to one of the Finest F-15 units out there. A unit that once was manned by 13 Fighter Weapons School grads. Whats left is an empty hanger that still says Missouri Air National Guard on it and the three gate guards at the airport and the one at the guard base at Jefferson Baracks. And lots of memories and a lot of great pics. Edited June 15, 2009 by tsculton Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kstater94 Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I'd like to start by responding to Nick Nick, I'm not flaming Jake. I am simply trying to point out that the unit is still around. As Jake admited in his own words, they don't exist as a fighter unit, but they do exist. That was my point when I first responded. Greg also got my point (OK, they aren't still in fighters and they aren't still in St. Louis but they are still in existence) Jake, my response to you came from both the technical standpoint (whether or not a unit exists or not on paper) and from a personel standpoint. To answer your question, it was the 184th that I am talking about. I don't admit to knowing your background, however, had you served any time in the military then you would know that (as a member of the amed services) Uncle Sam will take care of you in situations like this. My dad joined the 184th in 1979 when the unit had F-105's. He then went on to maintain the F-4D, F-16A/B/C/D and the B-1B prior to his retirement. As you know, the unit went on to operate the KC-135 after the B-1B and now are in the business of intelligence gathering. The folks that flew and supported the KC-135's were given the oportunity to move up the road to Topeka to join the 190th. They were not left hung out to dry. They were given moving allowances and such in order to take care of the business of setting up shop in Topeka. The major difference between the Guard and the active duty folks is that you have a choice in the Guard. If you don't want to move then you get out. Active duty, you move regardless. Believe it or not, we had the same type of exodus at the 184th when the unit transitioned from fighters (F-16's) to bombers. The fact is that you have guys that have been fighter guys all their lives and refuse to make the transition. Most of those guys are usually the older guys that are close to retirement and don't want to hassle with another transition class. You also get some of the younger guys that want to stay with fighters and they too move on to another unit that is more to their liking (again, when we went from fighters to bombers we had some of the young guys leave the 184th in order to move to Luke, or Syracuse, or Tulsa (to name but a few places that I know got some of our guys)). Believe it or not, we had the same thing happen when we transitioned from B-1's to KC-135's! it just wasn't some folk's cup of tea. During my Dad's time in the military, I moved where my dad got posted. Had dad been in the unit when they transitiond from tankers to computers, then I'd be typing this to you from Topeka. That's the kind of guy that he was. He moved where the jets were. And, as a military family, we would have followed. I do realize that this choice is not the same for everyone. And, I respect that. Am I sorry that they took the tankers away from the 184th? of course I am. But the unit is still here doing something else. And, if their current job means that we can all remain safe in our day to day lives and that we can continue to sleep safe at night, then good riddence to the jets then. Likewise, am I sorry that the 131st lost their fighters? you bet I am. I loved seeing them when I passed thru Lambert. But, again, if the 131st (with their extremely capable aircrews, maintainers, and ops folks) can add all that great knowledge to keeping the B-2 going, then that is what needs to happen and I'm sure they will do a fantastic job doing it. Alas I digress Like I said, my main point here was not to argue the technicalities or the thoughts of a unit transitioning because of BRAC as I KNOW that you and I agree on it. My whole point was that the unit DOES still exist. And that was all I was trying to point out. No flames here nor were there meant to be Regards John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Djack Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Jake, thanks for the great pictures as usual. I think we can all agree, IT SUCKS!!! David Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GreyGhost Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 John, I just wanted to say I never took your posts as flaming ... Just presenting facts to the discussion ... Gregg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kstater94 Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Thanks Gregg! Cheers John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waltz41 Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Does not make sense. It's like the 111th at Willow Grove. One of the most experienced A-10 units out there and they take away their Warthogs while converting another unit with no A-10 experience to Warthogs. Guess that's why they call it foggy bottom. That's what gets me the most.....I can understand you need to shift aircraft around, which will affect some units, but to take a unit that knows what they are doing, can be deployed and take their aircraft away, to give to another unit that is going to take what, at least a year, probably two before they fully are 'deployable'........not only is it wasted time and experience, but not to mention a bonehead move in terms of money, and as a taxpayer, that ticks me off!! The worst thing with the Willow Grove guys is that they still don't know what their new mission will be....so guys aren't sure if they should stay or jump ship to another unit so they can keep their 'skill' sets and keep doing what they are doing. It's a very sad state of affairs....and it's just happening more and more.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jmel Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 beautiful pics as always Jake. a fitting farewell, and some very poignant shots. Jason Thanks, Jason. Glad you liked 'em. Sad to see them leave St. Louis. Does not make sense. It's like the 111th at Willow Grove. One of the most experienced A-10 units out there and they take away their Warthogs while converting another unit with no A-10 experience to Warthogs. Guess that's why they call it foggy bottom. that's what I don't get. Why take A-10s out of the AEF rotations with the removal of jets from Willow Grove, Massachussetts, and Connecticut, then stand up new squadrons at Selfridge, Ft. Smith, and Ft. Wayne, with zero A-10 experience? It'll be at least two years before those squadrons will deploy. Meanwhile, other squadrons have to take up the slack, further straining those people and machines. I get what you mean, Jake... It is the end of an era and I for one am happy you got a chance to document it before they ceased to function as a fighter squadron. Top-notch pictures as always! Thanks, Nick! Pretty sad to watch it happen. Jake, thanks for the great pictures as usual. David You're welcome, David. That's what gets me the most.....I can understand you need to shift aircraft around, which will affect some units, but to take a unit that knows what they are doing, can be deployed and take their aircraft away, to give to another unit that is going to take what, at least a year, probably two before they fully are 'deployable'........not only is it wasted time and experience, but not to mention a bonehead move in terms of money, and as a taxpayer, that ticks me off!!The worst thing with the Willow Grove guys is that they still don't know what their new mission will be....so guys aren't sure if they should stay or jump ship to another unit so they can keep their 'skill' sets and keep doing what they are doing. It's a very sad state of affairs....and it's just happening more and more.... Sing it, sister! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
andyman_1970 Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Well as glad as I am that FSM retained their flying mission, I don’t see the sense (at least in that example that was cited) of trading Vipers for Hogs. The 188th was experienced in deploying the Viper, and now they won’t be able to deploy for a bit. Not a dig on the 188th as they are working their butts off but it’s simply a learning curve with a different jet. I for one hate to see the 131st jets leave, I never had a chance to shoot them and I will miss them. Maybe LM can lease the USAF some more Vipers until the F-35 is up and running……..LOL. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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