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B-24H and J Differences


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Good evening,

What are the most noticable differences between the H and J versions of the mighty Lib? I could spend vast amounts of time with Google, but I thought I would start with the real experts - modelers. Thanks for your help.

Regards,

Kent Tomlinson

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Look closely at pictures and you will start to see external differences. The first place to start is serial and plant where the ship was manufactured. Ford and Consolidated produced most of the B-24s, and sent knockdown kits to others for assembly. There are distinct differences between Ford and Consolidated aircraft. Ford made ships have a distinct S shaped panel line where the turret fairing attached. Most apparent are bomb aimers windows, front turret type, and paint demarcation styles. There were also variations in navigation windows, blown, size, shape. The nose gear doors could open inward or outward. There were alos depot and field mods. It would be best to work from photos. The B24 liberator by Allan Blue is a good reference. Search the threads on ARC, and also checkout B24bestweb.com

Good evening,

What are the most noticable differences between the H and J versions of the mighty Lib? I could spend vast amounts of time with Google, but I thought I would start with the real experts - modelers. Thanks for your help.

Regards,

Kent Tomlinson

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There were also many field mods depending on the theatre. Many libs in Europe had extra armor plate added, enclosed waist windows, and various bulged windows added. In the Pacific, may B-24s had armament modifications, including removal of the ball turret to save weight and increase range. Your best bet is to pin down the specific aircraft you want to build and find out exactly who built it and what mods it had.

SN

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Given that there were over 12,000 Liberators built, by many different factories, and all modified by many different mod centers (and we're talking about before any got overseas to the unit level mods!), there is no one answer to your question. There are gazillions of permutations and combinations of turrets, nose gear doors, scanning windows, waist windows, tunnel windows, cockpit glass, pitot tubes, wingtip position lights, and a dozen other things that change seemingly at random, even among airplanes with the same model and dash number. Having some good B-24 refs in hand and comparing serials to production lists and (key point) photos of a given airplane at a given time are the only way to tell one from the other.

And you thought Bf109s were tough? Hah! Child's play!

:woot.gif:

J

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Kent,

Excellent question, and one that most books to date have failed to answer correctly. In fact, considering that the B-24 was the most highly produced aircraft in US history, it is astounding now much bad info is out there.

Jennings has stated correctly that the differences were many and varied. Yes, the Fords (and the Knock-Down kits they sent to other manufacturers to assemble) all have the S-nose section that fitted over the nose of the B-24 (and this changed in configuration, too), where North American, Consolidated/San Diego and, eventually, Consolidated/Fort Worth had a nose section that butt-jointed onto the front of the aircraft.

Perhaps the most ridiculous and oft-repeated error is that "H's had the Emerson nose turret and J's had the Consolidated/Motor Products turret." Yes, all H's had the Emerson nose turret. H's were built entirely by Ford and every Ford B-24 up to the N had the Emerson nose turret. Consolidated built J's used the A6, A6A, A6B (all Consolidated/Motor Products turrets) AND the Emerson nose turret. Ford and North American also built the J and used the Emerson nose turret. In addition, the B-24 used three different tail turrets, a tail gun mounting called the "hand-held stinger" and, in the Pacific and on the early ASW nose-turret modified Ds, a hand-held twin fifty. THen there is the hand-held twin fifty replacement for the ball turret specific to some Air Forces in the Pacific. And the configuration of the Consolidated/San Diego Emerson nose turret mounting was different from that used by Consol/Fort Worth.

Shall I go on? LOL Later this year my book on the combat versions of the nose-turreted B-24s in USAAF service will be out. Each block of each manufacturer and the detail differences are both illustrated and shown in photos. This includes the changes in turrets, the differences in the waist mountings (including one previously unknown one), the configuration of the bombardier glass and the navigator's observation window variations, the longer nacelles on late B-24s, all the nose-turreted modified D's (there were three different configurations), and an examination of some experimental armaments tests (at least four) for the nose as well as a look at all the single tail test aircraft. And much, much more.

And then there are the five or six different noses on the B-24D...and about six different ones for the PB4Y-1 and the PB4Y-2 Privateer. Or was that seven? Those will be shown in Volume II.

Simply stated, there was probably NEVER another combat aircraft messed around with from the manufacturer to the field as much as the B-24. It has taken years to track this stuff down.

I don't know if the above helped or not. If you have a quesiton about a specific aircraft or a specific manufaturer's Block of one of the five manufacturers, I'll be glad to help you with it.

Alan

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Gents,

Thank you for the replies. I figured as much with all of the research that I have done the past few days. I found this sheet:

http://www.hannants.co.uk/search/?FULL=X02572&PIC_NO=1

and was trying to figure out if I could use Hasegawa's new "J" to backdate it a bit. I would need to find an Emerson turret, but the rest of the mods seem do-able. I'm having trouble finding exact pictures of "Alfred" though to determine what mods are needed. Of course, once I bite off this task, Hasegawa will release an "H!" Your thoughts.

Thank you again for your assistance.

Kent

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Gents,

Thank you for the replies. I figured as much with all of the research that I have done the past few days. I found this sheet:

http://www.hannants.co.uk/search/?FULL=X02572&PIC_NO=1

and was trying to figure out if I could use Hasegawa's new "J" to backdate it a bit. I would need to find an Emerson turret, but the rest of the mods seem do-able. I'm having trouble finding exact pictures of "Alfred" though to determine what mods are needed. Of course, once I bite off this task, Hasegawa will release an "H!" Your thoughts.

Thank you again for your assistance.

Kent

You could use the Hasegawa 'J' and swap nose sections with a Minicraft 'H'.

Not sure as to the accuracy of the nose, and there won't be as much surface detail on the Minicraft parts, but it's a start.

If you're interested, I have 1 or 2 spare 'H' nose sections. I'll trade you for the Hasegawa 'J' nose ;)

:wub:

edit: You can compare sprue shots - Hasegawa here and Minicraft here.

Edited by rcaf_100
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was trying to figure out if I could use Hasegawa's new "J" to backdate it a bit. I would need to find an Emerson turret, but the rest of the mods seem do-able.

Actually, the Hasegawa J comes with both the Emerson and Consolidated nose turrets. Even the D kit comes with both nose turrets (I may use those on one of my Academy/Minicraft kits.)

You could use the Hasegawa 'J' and swap nose sections with a Minicraft 'H'.

Actually, that still won't do the job. Like the Hasegawa J, the Minicraft H has the Consolidated nose configuration, and both markings options on the Xtradecal sheet are for Ford-built machines (the artwork incorrectly depicts them with Consolidated noses.) Pics of both aircraft can be found on B-24 Best Web. The only kit that's ever been released with a (semi) correct Ford-style nose is the Minicraft B-24M. It's possible to graft the M nose onto the Hasegawa J (see my earlier "Hasegawa B-24 Conversion Possibilities" thread in this forum) but you'd still need to remove the navigator's "bay" windows, and do a bit of rescribing to make it an H. I'm currently tinkering with the Hasegaw J nose to see if I can make it into a Ford H. So far it looks promising, although I'll have to vacuform a new chin glazing.

Oh, and if B24RESEARCHER is indeed Alan G. Blue, sign me up for a copy of that book (and volume II!!!)

SN

Edited by Steve N
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check Spruebrothers.com for a great deal on the Hasegawa J right now 32$!!!! Perhaps you could post the serial # of the plane you plan to model. I'll check it for you with the references I have. You could then look at a comparable aircraft. As B-24H-1-FO Alfred likely would have the A6A tail turret and Emerson nose, and open waist windows. It likely would have had the large bomb aimers glass only. Lights in end of wingtips. http://www.b24bestweb.com/Pics-A-ALF-ALH.htm

Edited by a20havoc
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Greetings gentlemen!

No, I'm not Al Blue. He is a wonderful guy and I'm proud to say he is a friend. In fact, we are both members of the Team at B24BestWeb.

Al's help and inspiration were huge parts of getting the information in my book right. He has provided me with a great deal of information (as have Dana Bell, Nick Veronico, Fred Johnsen and a number of other B-24/aircraft experts) and has read the copy cover to cover and we sat in his den as he made a number of useful suggestions to improve the accuracy. I consider it a rare treat when I've come up with things that Al didn't know about! There is a great deal of hitherto unpublished and apparently unknown information in my book. With this book you should be able to identify the external appearance of any block of nose-turreted B-24 as well as the three different nose-turreted D-mods - and learn some cool history, too. Of course, keep in mind that crews, units and depots made mods to individual aircraft, so photos are always critical when building a specific aircraft.

One of the great inspirations and frustrations in writing these books has been how much just plain lousy information there is out there in some relatively well-known publications. Frankly, it is a situation where information was gathered from previously-published and incorrect books, etc. The truth is out there, you just need to do the original research instead of gather.

I don't have a publication date yet. I'm doing some final touches on the line drawings and that can be a bit time-consuming. If you're wondering about the quality of the line drawings, watch season two of Dogfights. I did most of the 3-view drawings you see in the background in some scenes.

In the meantime, if I can answer any questions about detail differences between different versions of the B-24 please don't hesitate to ask. For instance, you cannot build an accurate replica of THE DRAGON AND HIS TAIL from the Hasegawa kit (nor COCKTAIL HOUR, either). DRAGON did not have a ball turret. Instead, it had the 5th AF belly gun mod. My book has an explanation of this mod and photos both inside and out. It is a relatively easy mod for an experienced modeler. By the way, the 7th and 13th Air Forces had DIFFERENT mods. And sometimes a 5th AF mod would end up with one of the other Air Forces and vice versa. The B-24 is NEVER dull.

I hope this answers your questions. Help is on the way!

Best regards,

Alan Griffith

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Holy crap. It can never be easy. Maybe that's why I spend 99% of my time researching and 1% actually building. I am eyeing the "J" on sale at Sprue Brothers. Thanks for your help. You guys sure know your stuff. I'll look forward to the book.

Kent

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Alan,

That rim around the 5th AF belly mount, was it a splash guard to keep the windows clear?

Have you collected information on the B-24Ls AND Ms converted to weather reconnaissance aircraft for the 55th WRS? They have a non-standard location of the radome. It was in the rear left bomb bay.

From Pacific War Eagles, by Ethell and Bodie. This is Weather Witch. You can see the pin up on the nose. It suffered a taxiing accident. That accursed nose gear strikes gain.

1b24Lweawitchdump.jpg

2b24Lweawitchdump.gif

Along with the SCR-729 antenna on each side of the nose, they had a psychrometer probe on the right nose. The location was different on each model. It was also a different type than the British one on 653rd B-24Js out of England. Bernie Barris at AWRA has some excellent photos. You could contact him for more information.

Best wishes,

Grant

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Grant,

GREAT photos! I don't have that book but I can see I may have to add yet another tome to my collection.

To be honest, I've done little research on the weather or radar mods. My goal was to produce a book that could be used as a resource for knowing what the external configuration was of the aircraft as they were used without the special mods for Mickey, weather, Ferret, Snooper, etc. aircraft. That would be an entire book in itself! I've found a whole series of photos and documents regarding moving the Mickey radar farther up into the aircraft to provide better ground clearance when retracted. Apparently the dome was so low that it was creating a fair amount of drag even when retracted. I've covered a number of the weapons mod tests in Vol 1, but none of the radar.

The radar dome position you show was apparently only one of lord knows how many. I'm on the road right now, but at home I have a photo of that radar mounted between the nose gear and the front bomb bay on an aircraft in the Pacific. Can't tell you which one from memory, unfortunately. I'll try and find it when I get home. It is a uniquely ugly mod.

I'm not familiar with the AWRA or its site. Can you send me the link? My email is ag122651@hotmail.com. I greatly appreciate it.

Thanks for your post. Most interesting!

Alan

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Grant

OOPS! I got so engrossed in the weather radar position I forgot to answer your original question.

Honestly, I cannot definitively say if that item you're talking about was a weather shield or not. If you could post a photo of what you're talking about I might be able to take a better shot at it. However, I believe I know what you're talking about - what looks like a shield projecting down in front of the mounting. I've not found anything describing that item, although I do have an engineering drawing of the thing! My informed guess is that it is both a wind shield to make it easier to horse the hand-held mount around in the slipstream and also served as a weather/water shield. But I have to caution that is only a guess. Unlike some "authors", I don't like making a statement that "this is what it is" without having definite evidence. I'm silly that way.

I should probably be cursing your name right now. LOL You've got me thinking about what it would take to gather the information on all the special B-24 radar and intruder mods and whether or not it would make a book people would buy.

Somebody slap me...

Alan

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Kent,

When I started researching the books I never realized what a complicated undertaking it would end up being. The information in my book is not "new". It has been around but much of it overlooked for years. The B-24 is much too complicated an aircraft to be covered adequately in a monograph, even if the authors had used the correct information.

The level of my knowledge about the B-24 pales in comparison with that of many of the members of the B24BestWeb Team. The Team is building a data base of EVERY B-24 ever made, its history in the units, disposition, etc. That is not my area of expertise and I am forever indebted to their knowledge and willingness to share.

As I said earlier, if there is anything I can do to help you identify a specific B-24 and what its external appearance probably was, let me know.

Alan

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Alan,

Sorry to open the can of worms for you. It would be a great help if you could publish it, though.

Here is a link to the Air Weather Reconnaissance Association page on the 55th WRS (LR)

http://www.awra.us/gallery-jan06.html

Neither of the two nose photos of the B-24s show the psychrometer.

I saved the pics of the psychrometer on my wife's computer and can't get to them. I may have deleted them.

Go to the home page and click the Have a Question? box to send an e-mail to Bernie Barris.

Here is a scan of a B-24 with the thin ring around the belly gun that I was talking about.

1b24bellygun.jpg

It is from the Osprey B-24s in the Pacific War.

Now if Hasegawa would only make a decent Ford built nose with the S fairing and the angled back bombadier's window. I can cut out the Nav

windows.

Best wishes,

Grant

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Again, you guys rock. Thank you for the input and for the website information-B24BESTWEB. That's a keeper. I bit the bullet and purchased the B-24J from Sprue Brothers and the decals from Twobobs.net. I will be interested in seeing some of Steve N's 'tinkering' with his "J." This purchase and research now guarantees an "H" from Hasegawa. Thank you again for the responses. It's always great to learn.

Kent

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An interesting site with some good info.

However, there is one section which is incomplete and has some inaccuracies. This isn’t surprising given the inaccurate data which has been printed and repeated over the years.

“One modification that did work fairly well was the field installation by the 90th Bombardment Group of a Consolidated A-6 tail turret from a wrecked Liberator in the NOSE of another B-24D. The idea was supposedly the brainchild of Art Rogers, who first thought of it in April of 1942. A mockup was tried out at Ford/Willow Run in August of 1942. It took a while, however, before a working turret was actually installed in the nose of a Liberator. The first nose turrent was installed in 41-23759 while the plane was being repaired in Australia. So successful was this modification was that the Army authorized the installation of nose turrets in all Pacific-bound Liberators. The first such modifications were performed by the Hawaii Air Depot, with the Oklahoma City Army Air Corps Modification Center later joining the program. The Oklahoma City modified Liberators had a redesigned bombardier station which gave the aircraft nose a pronounced drooped chin and a distinct "tacked-on" appearance. These modified B-24Ds were given the designation B-24D1.â€Â

The idea for the nose-turreted B-24 was indeed that of Col. Art Rogers, an Engineering Officer, and for which he was decorated. The first completed nose-turreted B-24 was actually produced by the Hawaiian Air Depot (HAD) to Rogers’ specs and flew a mission in late 1942. My book contains recently discovered photos of this aircraft and the other aircraft used in this mission. The aircraft modified in Australia didn’t take place until 1943. There were subsequently two other aircraft in Australia that received this mod as well as a tail wheel (different from the HAD mod tail wheel). Because BOTH the aircraft were used for the first Australia mod were considered wrecks, it was probably the only reason this field modification took place. Taking an aircraft out of combat for a mod of this sort was not going to happen as aircraft were in short supply. Also, because the aircraft modified had a badly damaged nose, the shape of the new nose was very slightly different from the standard HAD mod. All this is covered in the book. There remains some serious disagreement among B-24 experts as to the serial number of this first HAD mod, so the identification of 41-23765 should be considered speculative at this point.

The Oklahoma City (OCAD) mod Liberators were completely separate from the Hawaiian Mod and didn’t see action until some time after the HAD mods were already in action. There was yet a third nose-turret mod separate from both the HAD and OCAD mods. These had a completely different mission than either of those mods and were configured differently in several important aspects. Also covered in detail.

Technically speaking, only the HAD mods going to the 5th Air Force were redesignated (by the 5th) as D1s. This was to avoid confusion between the D-1-CO glassnoses that were being flown. However, over time the designation D1 has come to be used (including by me in my book) as it immediately clarifies what you’re talking about – a D modified with a nose turret. A list of all D1s known to date, type of modification, name, serial number and unit assignment is included in my book.

Needless to say, there is much, much more to these modified Ds, and in my book they receive an entire chapter of coverage with photos, official documents and line drawings describing each.

Alan Griffith

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I guess my next question at this point would be how close to the read deal the Monogram 1/48 B-24 D is to the real thing?

The Monogram kit was designed during the days of its glory. While I don't have the kit (I still build in God's One True Scale, Amen - 1/72), from what I've seen of it, it is a great looking kit.

There are a couple of things to mention, however. I'm not sure what the cheek gun configuration is and I don't know which articles online are showing the kit as it comes. There are about five or six different variations on the cheek guns. The one I THINK the kit has is an early one with no suport frame going from left to right across the top of the ball socket mounting frame. I can't find my notes on what sn's had this mod, but it was an early one.

Second, from what I can see the tail turret is completely wrong. I don't know what turret was/is mounted on the B-24 at the USAF Museum - which is probably the aircraft they measured for the kit - but that one may not have been correct at the time. The turret that I believe is on the kit is an A6B Motor Products Turret. It should be an A6 or an A6A. This turret would have staggered .50 cal guns with the right one (gunner's right) set back 6 inches from the one on the left. Also, the glass on the A6 and A6A was flat, not curved. Also, the turret would not have had the external metal covering the gun mechanism. They removed it to lighten the turret as they didn't need to worry about draft since it faced backwards.

If you go to b24bestweb.com and look for photos of B-24Ds and B-24J-COs before about block 45 you will eventually find photos of the tail turret that show this well. If you send me your email address I can send you a closeup photo that will answer all your questions about this tail turret. My email is ag122651@hotmail.com

So to make this short, build the kit and enjoy the heck out of it, just knowing that the decals may or may not be right for the cheek gun configuration of the kit. You can probably find a photo of the aircraft you want to build on www.b24bestweb.com and see what configuration it had.

Alan

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The reason the tail turret on the Monogram B-24D is wrong is because the kit was based on thier B-24J..all they did was change the nose. Like you, I build 1/72, so I don't know if the Monogram B-24D has other J features that need fixing (i.e. nosewheel doors and aileron trim tabs.)

The Air Force Museum's B-24D has the correct A6A tail turret. I photographed the heck out of it last fall, since Hasegawa made the same mistake as Monogram, and included the A6B in their B-24D kit. I'm hoping maybe somebody will make an aftermarket correction, or I'll have to scratchbuild pretty much a whole new turret. Here are a couple of snapshots I of the A6A turret on the Air Force Museum B-24D.

B-24Turret01.jpg

100_0176.jpg

And here's an A6B turret, in this case on a B-24M at the Canada Aviation Museum in Ottawa, Ontario.

TailTurret.jpg

SN

Edited by Steve N
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