1/48 British AH-64D Longbow with ferry tank

[HarrierMan]

Hi everyone, my first post on ARC and although I normally build aircraft its a helo question for the rotor heads. I am going to build my 1/48 Hasegawa AH-64D as a British version serving in Afghanistan but am considering giving it a load variation of a single ferry tank. Any advice/possible sources for what size tanks have been/are carried on the British Apache please and typically is it carried on the inboard pylon if so what weapons load balances the tank on the opposite wing pylon.

Any help greatly appreciated.

[gary1701]

Hi,

There is a new fuel tank that has been developed for operational use by AAC Apache's on Herrick but according to the crew that I spoke to last week who were just back it hasn't been cleared yet for use. It should have been by now, but there's a delay due to problems. It is not the large ferry tank that you often see on pics of US Army and Israeli Apaches though, but a completely new tank of reduced size. The current loads from pics are the usual CRV-7 pods on the outboards, with Hellfire rails inboard. I have seen footage of four CRV-7s as well. I'm told the tanks, when loaded will only be used on the inboard stations, and I think probably only one. I've still yet to see a single picture of this new tank though. Another modification on AAC Apaches just deployed is a new layer of applique armour wrapped around the lower half of a CRV-7 pod. The guys told me they nearly lost a aircraft due to a hit on a rocket in a CRV-7 pod recently.

I hope that's at least some help.!

Gary

Edited July 27, 2009 by gary1701

[Davidwatson]

Hi,

I too am building a WAH-64D and was considering adding a ferry tank or two, mainly because there are no correct CRV-7 pods available and I dont fancy scratch building them. Not sure if the tanks I have seen them carrying in photo's have been carried in combat but the revell MH-60L Black Hawk tanks look very similar. Are you adding the HIDAS lumps & bumps too?

There are pictures of these ferry tanks at http://www.ukapache.com/

David

[gary1701]

Hi again,

The AAC certainly did recieve some of the large tanks early in the aircraft's career (the link at Tom's UK Apache site was when ZJ174 was loaded in the hangar at Wattisham during a small open day for locals in 2005). This is the same aircraft/event but before I had a decent camera.

http://gary-stedman.fotopic.net/p56219987.html

I've never seen any indication that they were ever flown, even in the UK for training flights, let alone on operations. Infact I've frequently asked AAC crews and they've always said they have never been used. I think John on here a while ago indicated that US Apaches stopped using them as well because they weren't 'ballistically tolerant' (that's the UK phrase). I think it became less important when the internal tank was added to the 30mm bay.

Gary

Edit - found one! Rich Pittman took this earlier in the year of a Westlands trials Apache with the tank(s) at Yeovil. Not very clear, but better than nothing!

http://www.airfighters.com/photo/32368/L/U...w-Apache/ZJ188/

Edited July 27, 2009 by gary1701

[HarrierMan]

Hi again,

The AAC certainly did recieve some of the large tanks early in the aircraft's career (the link at Tom's UK Apache site was when ZJ174 was loaded in the hangar at Wattisham during a small open day for locals in 2005). This is the same aircraft/event but before I had a decent camera.

http://gary-stedman.fotopic.net/p56219987.html

I've never seen any indication that they were ever flown, even in the UK for training flights, let alone on operations. Infact I've frequently asked AAC crews and they've always said they have never been used. I think John on here a while ago indicated that US Apaches stopped using them as well because they weren't 'ballistically tolerant' (that's the UK phrase). I think it became less important when the internal tank was added to the 30mm bay.

Gary

Edit - found one! Rich Pittman caught one of the Westlands trials Apaches loaded last year at Yeovil. Not very clear, but better than nothing!

http://www.airfighters.com/photo/32368/L/U...w-Apache/ZJ188/

[HarrierMan]

Hi again,

The AAC certainly did recieve some of the large tanks early in the aircraft's career (the link at Tom's UK Apache site was when ZJ174 was loaded in the hangar at Wattisham during a small open day for locals in 2005). This is the same aircraft/event but before I had a decent camera.

http://gary-stedman.fotopic.net/p56219987.html

I've never seen any indication that they were ever flown, even in the UK for training flights, let alone on operations. Infact I've frequently asked AAC crews and they've always said they have never been used. I think John on here a while ago indicated that US Apaches stopped using them as well because they weren't 'ballistically tolerant' (that's the UK phrase). I think it became less important when the internal tank was added to the 30mm bay.

Gary

Edit - found one! Rich Pittman caught one of the Westlands trials Apaches loaded last year at Yeovil. Not very clear, but better than nothing!

http://www.airfighters.com/photo/32368/L/U...w-Apache/ZJ188/

Wow Gary, you certainly know your stuff, and excellent help thank you. I was interested to do this build after reading Ed Macy's book where he I think he mentioned a single tank being used and you photo photo link showing the smaller streamlined tank (a pair I notice) looks like what I had in mind. I have done a lot of digging around and would agree on the larger tanks as similar to the US ones, my searches have dug up reference to a 250 US/192 Imp Gallon but I think this was for the UH-60 Blackhawk and would look oversized in proportion on the Apache.

I have a pair of small streamlined tanks from a BAe Hawk kit that look similar in shape to those in your photo. So may go with them unless anyone can steer me closer with another option.

Thanks again.

[HarrierMan]

Hi,

I too am building a WAH-64D and was considering adding a ferry tank or two, mainly because there are no correct CRV-7 pods available and I dont fancy scratch building them. Not sure if the tanks I have seen them carrying in photo's have been carried in combat but the revell MH-60L Black Hawk tanks look very similar. Are you adding the HIDAS lumps & bumps too?

There are pictures of these ferry tanks at http://www.ukapache.com/

David

Hi David, shame about their being no after market option on the CRV's but I didnt want to do a "bog standard" version hence the ferry tanks. I think the MH-60L's might dwarf the Apache a tad, Garys photo below of ZJ188 shows a smaller ferry style which I am keen to go with. I am still looking into the HIDAS elements will let you know. I havent kicked off yet with the build as I am still researching, how far have you got with yours ?

[gary1701]

Hi Chris,

No problems, I take a keen interest in UK Apache's as my house is just a couple of miles from where they're based (infact a pair are in the circuit as I type). I can't really answer much on the modelling front but I think I can just remember the small fuel tanks that some of the Hawk operators use (I don't think the RAF have ever used them).

I can't remember the context in Ed Macy's book in which he refers to the fuel tank, but I'd be pretty sure that he means the extra internal fuel tank, not a external one - both the US and AAC Apache fleets use a small internal fuel tank that fits in the 30mm ammo bay, reducing the rounds carried but increasing endurance. If/when the new external tank is fielded the crew I spoke to indicated it would 'probably' be one tank only - which makes sense as they can still load twin CRV-7 pods outboard (very useful in Afghan) and a single quad Hellfire launcher on the other side opposite to the new fuel tank (even when carrying two quad hellfire rails at present they don't load more than one or two rounds on each side so it's no loss).

To avoid the CRV-7 issue (I may have got this wrong as I don't build, but I believe I read somewhere that a firm was going to make the CRV-7 pod?) you could go for one in a UK training fit and load the sometimes seen load of four hellfire rails, which are usually empty as well. Aircraft in the UK are often not fitted with any of the HIDAS bits which avoids another problem. The Apache would look a little 'plain' granted, and certainly would not represent a aircraft in Afghanistan, but would avoid most of the problems specific to UK Apaches.

Anything else just shout.

Gary

Edited July 27, 2009 by gary1701

[Davidwatson]

Hi David, shame about their being no after market option on the CRV's but I didnt want to do a "bog standard" version hence the ferry tanks. I think the MH-60L's might dwarf the Apache a tad, Garys photo below of ZJ188 shows a smaller ferry style which I am keen to go with. I am still looking into the HIDAS elements will let you know. I havent kicked off yet with the build as I am still researching, how far have you got with yours ?

Hi Chris, quite far along (I'll try put a couple of pic's up).Just had a problem with the paint masks I used peeling off during priming so I need to re mask before I carry on. I sourced the HIDAS bits from the Revell WAH-64 kit which is the old Monogram kit with a few updated parts, but with the Aires cockpit set too, it makes it quite an expensive build! Also had to scratch build several extra bits that are not included in the Revell kit.

Hi Gary, I hope what you read was true about the aftermarket rockets! They are quite a distinctive feature of an AAC apache, especially ones that have served in Afghanistan which my build will depict.

David

[Cobrahistorian]

I can't remember the context in Ed Macy's book in which he refers to the fuel tank, but I'd be pretty sure that he means the extra internal fuel tank, not a external one - both the US and AAC Apache fleets use a small internal fuel tank that fits in the 30mm ammo bay, reducing the rounds carried but increasing endurance.

There are actually two variants of the internal "Robbie" tank. The 100 gallon has an integral magazine with it and allows carriage of 330 rounds of 30mm. The 130 gallon tank does not have a magazine, so you're limited to the rounds in the ammo carrier itself, which works out to about 100rds, give or take. Both significantly increase our mission time. Externals are strictly for ferrying purposes in the US, probably going to be the same with the UK. Only the Israelis carry externals on combat missions at present.

Jon

[HarrierMan]

Hi Chris, quite far along (I'll try put a couple of pic's up).Just had a problem with the paint masks I used peeling off during priming so I need to re mask before I carry on. I sourced the HIDAS bits from the Revell WAH-64 kit which is the old Monogram kit with a few updated parts, but with the Aires cockpit set too, it makes it quite an expensive build! Also had to scratch build several extra bits that are not included in the Revell kit.

Hi Gary, I hope what you read was true about the aftermarket rockets! They are quite a distinctive feature of an AAC apache, especially ones that have served in Afghanistan which my build will depict.

David

Hi David, great looking shots, after looking around like you I have concluded the best option for the HIDAS was to pick up the Revell kit and rob it of all the necessaries. I am a big fan of Aires cockpits, both my Harriers (GR7 & AV-8BII+) have them and they are very nice quality sets but as you say expensive. I havent looked too close at the HAS kit cockpit in the flesh yet but have seen an online review which clearly shows the extra quality detail in the Aires set. Might be able to persuade my lady that its the only option but as you say Has kit + Revell + Aires + PE, wow thats gonna hurt !!!

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/style_...icons/icon6.gif

[HarrierMan]

Hi Chris,

No problems, I take a keen interest in UK Apache's as my house is just a couple of miles from where they're based (infact a pair are in the circuit as I type). I can't really answer much on the modelling front but I think I can just remember the small fuel tanks that some of the Hawk operators use (I don't think the RAF have ever used them).

I can't remember the context in Ed Macy's book in which he refers to the fuel tank, but I'd be pretty sure that he means the extra internal fuel tank, not a external one - both the US and AAC Apache fleets use a small internal fuel tank that fits in the 30mm ammo bay, reducing the rounds carried but increasing endurance. If/when the new external tank is fielded the crew I spoke to indicated it would 'probably' be one tank only - which makes sense as they can still load twin CRV-7 pods outboard (very useful in Afghan) and a single quad Hellfire launcher on the other side opposite to the new fuel tank (even when carrying two quad hellfire rails at present they don't load more than one or two rounds on each side so it's no loss).

To avoid the CRV-7 issue (I may have got this wrong as I don't build, but I believe I read somewhere that a firm was going to make the CRV-7 pod?) you could go for one in a UK training fit and load the sometimes seen load of four hellfire rails, which are usually empty as well. Aircraft in the UK are often not fitted with any of the HIDAS bits which avoids another problem. The Apache would look a little 'plain' granted, and certainly would not represent a aircraft in Afghanistan, but would avoid most of the problems specific to UK Apaches.

Anything else just shout.

Gary

Hi Gary, I cant find the ref by Ed either now, anyway thanks again for the info I dont think anyone has yet owned up to making aftermarket CRV-7s, I guess its a supply and demand thing. Out of curiosity regarding fitting the HIDAS it is considered only for active deployment as I would have thought it is a big modification to go through and wouldnt be a quick fit i.e. were some updated and shipped abroad for service duty whilst the rest of the fleet gradually gets an upgrade ?

Thanks again,

[gary1701]

Hi again Chris,

For quite a while I assumed that the HIDAS fit was gradually being fielded through the Apache fleet and that all would eventually be fitted. That doesn't appear to be the case, as I've photographed many aircraft that have been fitted, and then at a later date have seen them again with the antenna removed. I don't think they have a full complement of sets for the whole fleet so they are routinely rotated around. Looking at pics taken down the Salisbury Plain area where you'll mostly find the Apache's from 673 Sqn out of Middle Wallop (Apache Training unit), you'll see very few aircraft fitted with HIDAS, and even several of the frontline airframes at Wattisham don't have HIDAS fitted, although this year I haven't seen as many as in the past. Yet, I took this only yesterday afternoon on a approach and overshoot at Lakenheath.

Serial not known I'm afraid, as the shadows cover it, but note it's upgraded with the new M-TADS sight but lacks the HIDAS fit. First time I've seen that. The base OC at Wattisham did say earlier this year they only draw the Afghan airframes for a pool of about 30 aircraft, which is less that halve the fleet.

Gary

Edited July 31, 2009 by gary1701

[HarrierMan]

Hi again Chris,

For quite a while I assumed that the HIDAS fit was gradually being fielded through the Apache fleet and that all would eventually be fitted. That doesn't appear to be the case, as I've photographed many aircraft that have been fitted, and then at a later date have seen them again with the antenna removed. I don't think they have a full complement of sets for the whole fleet so they are routinely rotated around. Looking at pics taken down the Salisbury Plain area where you'll mostly find the Apache's from 673 Sqn out of Middle Wallop (Apache Training unit), you'll see very few aircraft fitted with HIDAS, and even several of the frontline airframes at Wattisham don't have HIDAS fitted, although this year I haven't seen as many as in the past. Yet, I took this only yesterday afternoon on a approach and overshoot at Lakenheath.

Serial not known I'm afraid, as the shadows cover it, but note it's upgraded with the new M-TADS sight but lacks the HIDAS fit. First time I've seen that. The base OC at Wattisham did say earlier this year they only draw the Afghan airframes for a pool of about 30 aircraft, which is less that halve the fleet.

Gary

Thanks Gary, must be amazing to see these go past your home on such a regular basis. Your help gives me a lot to think about now much appreciated.

[Cobrahistorian]

For quite a while I assumed that the HIDAS fit was gradually being fielded through the Apache fleet and that all would eventually be fitted. That doesn't appear to be the case, as I've photographed many aircraft that have been fitted, and then at a later date have seen them again with the antenna removed. I don't think they have a full complement of sets for the whole fleet so they are routinely rotated around. Looking at pics taken down the Salisbury Plain area where you'll mostly find the Apache's from 673 Sqn out of Middle Wallop (Apache Training unit), you'll see very few aircraft fitted with HIDAS, and even several of the frontline airframes at Wattisham don't have HIDAS fitted, although this year I haven't seen as many as in the past. Yet, I took this only yesterday afternoon on a approach and overshoot at Lakenheath.

Stateside (or UK-side) training won't require ASE gear to be fitted (CMWS on US machines, HIDAS on British), so you may or may not see it fitted when the birds are home. We have a mix right now of those that do have it and those that don't. Some of our birds have been modded to accept the new CMWS system. The mounts are all there, but the sensors have not been installed because we're not going anywhere anytime soon. Just because the sensors aren't fitted, doesn't mean the bird isn't wired for the system.

Jon