CeeTee Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Unfortunately, Gunze Aqueous paints are no longer available here in the states Which means I will need to find a new line of paint to use. I am thinking about using Mr. Color but the color reference names make no sense to me. I am currently working on some Spanish Civil War Russian aircraft that require the following colors. FS34102- Topside Green FS25466- Underside Blue Could someone help me locate the Mr. Color equivalent for these colors? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
taylorde Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) Try using this conversion chart: http://www.paint4models.com/paintchart/pai...sionchart.html# I get Mr Color # 303 From Rainbow10: 0051910032303,GSI Creos,,120yen,Mr.COLOR 303 GREEN FS34102 (Or just search Rainbow10 with the FS number to get the Mr color # too) Make sure to use Mr Retarder, and Mr Color leveling thinner. I love these paints DaveT Edited July 29, 2009 by taylorde Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Triarius Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 If you are looking for acrylics, have you considered Polly Scale or Vallejo? I know Polly Scale to be excellent paints, and I have never heard anything negative about Vallejo, though I haven't tried them yet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CeeTee Posted July 29, 2009 Author Share Posted July 29, 2009 If you are looking for acrylics, have you considered Polly Scale or Vallejo? I know Polly Scale to be excellent paints, and I have never heard anything negative about Vallejo, though I haven't tried them yet. I love Poll S but it has one MAJOR problem, its too thick!! My LHS carries Vallejo AIR but the color reference names are even more confusing than Mr Color and the line is very limited in terms of colors offered. I have never used them however. If you know the Vallejo AIR equivalent for the colors i'm looking for please let me know. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CeeTee Posted July 29, 2009 Author Share Posted July 29, 2009 Try using this conversion chart:http://www.paint4models.com/paintchart/pai...sionchart.html# I get Mr Color # 303 From Rainbow10: 0051910032303,GSI Creos,,120yen,Mr.COLOR 303 GREEN FS34102 (Or just search Rainbow10 with the FS number to get the Mr color # too) Make sure to use Mr Retarder, and Mr Color leveling thinner. I love these paints DaveT Thanks This chart is a big help. Anything important I need to know about Mr. Color paint before I use it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarkW Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Aside from being a toxic lacquer, and requiring proper ventilation/protection, they should behave similar to crylics except much harder to handbrush (must get retarder) and much tougher/faster drying. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Triarius Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 I love Poll S but it has one MAJOR problem, its too thick!! Eh? Too thick?!! Actually, they are a little thin for handbrushing any significant area. However, diluted per directions with 10 to 15 percent distilled water, they go on like velvet, flow nicely, and cure relatively quickly for acrylics. The only problem I've ever had airbrushing them was tip dry, easily cured with a tiny amount of acrylic retarder. I have an issue with paints sold "ready to airbrush": You're buying more thinner and less paint. Convenient, but considering the low cost of most acrylic thinners, even the proprietary ones (if used only for reducing paint viscosity), not worth it…especially if the thinner is water… Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CeeTee Posted July 29, 2009 Author Share Posted July 29, 2009 Aside from being a toxic lacquer, and requiring proper ventilation/protection, they should behave similar to crylics except much harder to handbrush (must get retarder) and much tougher/faster drying. This is the first i'm hearing that Mr. Color is a lacquer. Not good news since I prefer to go non-toxic if possible. My LHS stocks Vallejo AIR so if I can locate some of the more important shades like the German "RLM" colors I think I will give this line of paints a first go before I make up my mind. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
metroman Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 There is no better paint in the world than Mr. Color, with its wonderful sheerness and tough nature. Simply pop the window and stay upwind, and forget about that acrylic mess. Addendum: Alclad 2 would also qualify as #1, though it's much more limited in scope. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GGoheen Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I absolutely agree with Metroman on Gunze Mr. Color lacquer based paints as they truly are excellent in quality and go on smoothly. Use approx. 70% lacquer thinner to 30% (minimum) Mr. Color and you're golden. Greg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarkW Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I absolutely love them, but a paint booth and or respirator are a must. If you can smell it, then it's bad. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CeeTee Posted July 30, 2009 Author Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) I absolutely love them, but a paint booth and or respirator are a must. If you can smell it, then it's bad. By "them" I am assuming you mean Mr. Color. I'm gonna go the non-toxic route with Vallejo AIR first. If i'm not happy with the results then I will switch to Mr. Color or go back to using toxic old Model Master which I was very happy with. My first Vallejo project will be a Spanish I-15 in 1/48 scale. I will give you my opinion when it is complete. Edited July 30, 2009 by CeeTee Quote Link to post Share on other sites
trojansamurai Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 By "them" I am assuming you mean Mr. Color. I'm gonna go the non-toxic route with Vallejo AIR first. If i'm not happy with the results then I will switch to Mr. Color or go back to using toxic old Model Master which I was very happy with.My first Vallejo project will be a Spanish I-15 in 1/48 scale. I will give you my opinion when it is complete. Once you try Mr. Color, you'll probably never go back to Model Master (at least not for airbrushing). While yes, Mr. Color has a strong solvent smell, it truly is the highest performance paint I have ever used. In addition to the fast drying and toughness, it also goes on really thin and doesn't obscure detail like enamels. Also, since most of the colors are semi-gloss and are incredibly smooth, you can skip the clear gloss coating and go straight to decaling. Lastly, you can get pencil-thin airbrush lines. You can keep your enamels and water-based acrylics for washes and handbrushing. Even though Mr.Color and Aqueous Hobby Color are made by the same company, they are very different and there will be a bit of a learning curve at first. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Triarius Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 A few points: "Non-toxic" isn't. It is an advertising term. Legally, in the US, anything not proven to be toxic beyond all reasonable doubt can be labeled "non-toxic." As of when I left the industry, toxicity research was ten years behind and falling fast. That was seven years ago. What most acrylic or aqueous systems have is lower toxicity, often substantially lower, than traditional solvent systems. NO paint or other coating should ever be used without adequate respiratory and contact protection. Acrylic systems behave very differently than traditional enamel systems, which are also significantly different from lacquer systems (as trojansamurai said). Additionally, there exist "enamel lacquers" which are a combination of an enamel (curing) paint with a lacquer (drying only). While I have not looked at the MSDS for Mr. Color, nor know anything definite about the formulation, I suspect from people's description of its behavior that it may be an enamel lacquer type of coating. See Item 1. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Larson Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 A few points: "Non-toxic" isn't. It is an advertising term. Legally, in the US, anything not proven to be toxic beyond all reasonable doubt can be labeled "non-toxic." As of when I left the industry, toxicity research was ten years behind and falling fast. That was seven years ago. What most acrylic or aqueous systems have is lower toxicity, often substantially lower, than traditional solvent systems. NO paint or other coating should ever be used without adequate respiratory and contact protection. Acrylic systems behave very differently than traditional enamel systems, which are also significantly different from lacquer systems (as trojansamurai said). Additionally, there exist "enamel lacquers" which are a combination of an enamel (curing) paint with a lacquer (drying only). While I have not looked at the MSDS for Mr. Color, nor know anything definite about the formulation, I suspect from people's description of its behavior that it may be an enamel lacquer type of coating. See Item 1. Mr. Color is an acrylic lacquer which dries extremely fast and is why a retarder is needed so you aren't spraying cotton candy out of your airbrush. I thin it with my favorite all-purpose thinner (for non-water based paints): PPG's DTL 876 Acrylic Lacquer Thinner and use as a retarder Gunze's own Mr. Retarder or good old Zippo cigarette lighter fluid (which is nothing more than high-flash naphtha). You can also use Mr. Color Self-leveling Thinner which is thinner already mixed with a retarder. And yes, ALWAYS use a respirator and good ventilation when spraying ANY kind of paint. Your lungs will thank you. :-) Cheers, Eric Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Triarius Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Eric, How do you know it's acrylic? The label seems to be in Japanese. Acrylic polymers are, by definition, polymers: They form a film by cross-linking of molecules, which is what occurs during curing. Lacquers form films by drying, onlyâ€â€simplisticly, a crystallization process. There are acrylic polymers soluble in high volatile organic polymers (such as naptha). It may be one of those. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Larson Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Eric,How do you know it's acrylic? The label seems to be in Japanese. Acrylic polymers are, by definition, polymers: They form a film by cross-linking of molecules, which is what occurs during curing. Lacquers form films by drying, onlyâ€â€simplisticly, a crystallization process. There are acrylic polymers soluble in high volatile organic polymers (such as naptha). It may be one of those. First, from posts on various forums regarding this paint. For example: http://www.automotiveforums.com/t100522.html Also, it's behavior (extremely rapid drying) and the ability to thin it with acrylic lacquer thinner, support that. I'm no expert on paint chemistry so I can't say how an acrylic lacquer differs from a conventional lacquer in that area but from everything I can find, Mr. Color fits the description of the acrylic type. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Triarius Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Eric, I read the discussion at that link. I'm afraid it still amounts to hearsay. As for its rapid drying behavior, that, in itself, is not sufficient, nor is it's apparent solubility in "acrylic lacquer thinner." There is another possibility: it is a fast drying, rapid curing acrylic polymer that is being marketed as a lacquer. Once the marketing wonks get ahold of something, science and technology go out the window, as I'm sure you know all to well. For example: there are things called "enamel lacquers" as I've mentioned before. They are not lacquers. They are mixtures of enamel (polymerizing) paint and lacquer. It is possible that the Gunze product is a mixture of an acrylic polymer and a synthetic lacquer. I know that such a combination is well within the scope of current technology. It would be similar in general construction (NOT composition) to an enamel lacquer. If that is the case, then an "acrylic lacquer thinner" would be a combination of solvents that would dissolve both the acrylic polymer and the lacquer resin. Since many lacquer resins and many acrylic polymers are soluble in various alcohols, this seems to be an obvious extension of the technology. In terms of apparent behavior, both "enamel lacquers" and possible "acrylic lacquers" could (in the case of enamel lacquers, do) easily perform like true lacquers. Only a paint lab would be able to tell. A good example of this are Tamiya acrylics. They are reduceable in alcohol, and are readily redissolved by alcohol after curing, but nevertheless are true polymers. As my sigfile says, coatings are stranger than you can imagine. In fact, they are stranger than i can imagine, and I worked in and with the industry for decades. ;) I still have contacts in the industry, including one who is in my IPMS chapter. I'll ask them what the state of the art is, and whether or not they can get definitive information on the stuff. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarkW Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Hmmm...and I always thought it odd denatured alcohol dissolved cured Mr. Color. Whatever it is, it's toxic but tough as heck and goes down thin and smooth from an airbrush. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Triarius Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Hmmm...and I always thought it odd denatured alcohol dissolved cured Mr. Color. Whatever it is, it's toxic but tough as heck and goes down thin and smooth from an airbrush. That would be a possible indication that it contains a lacquer component, but it's not definitive, as many acrylic polymers can be redissolved in alcohols. However, even if they are then redeposited and look normal, the are not the same as when they first cured. Essentially, it's getting impossible to tell the players without a program. My friend who's still active in the industry has a personal reference library that fills a twelve by twelve room, and is starting to crowd him out of his office. The technology is growing so fast that all one can do is keep track of what reference contains information on any given topic. Reminds me how glad I am that I'm out of that rat race! :P Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MoFo Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Since we're kinda off the original subject anyway... Question: how do Gunze 'lacquers' work with Tamiya's lacquer thinner (the stuff in the small jug, with the yellow cap)? Unfortunately, even though there's half a dozen good hobby shops in town, none of them stock Mr.Color. I've got a bunch of Gunze paints I'd *like* to spray, but I'm a little fed up with the spiderwebbing and issues that come from thinning with "normal" lacquer thinner. I've heard that the silver bullet to all that is Mr. Color Leveling thinner... but none of the locals stock it, and I keep procrastinating when it comes to ordering overseas (wait two weeks for a bottle of thinner? meh... I'll get some later). But the locals *do* have Tamiya's lacquer thinner. I know that Leveling Thinner has a retarder in it, and I gather the normal Mr. Color thinner doesn't. Does Tamiya's lacquer thinner have a retarder? Does it perform any better than generic, hardware-store lacquer thinner? Or rather, enough better to justify being 4 - 5x the price? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarkW Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 In my experience, Mr. Color Thinner is better than hardware store stuff. Automotive paint shops have hotter and cooler formulations of lacquer thinner that may work as well. Unfortunately, I can't speak for Tamiya.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
trojansamurai Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) Since we're kinda off the original subject anyway... Question: how do Gunze 'lacquers' work with Tamiya's lacquer thinner (the stuff in the small jug, with the yellow cap)? Unfortunately, even though there's half a dozen good hobby shops in town, none of them stock Mr.Color. I've got a bunch of Gunze paints I'd *like* to spray, but I'm a little fed up with the spiderwebbing and issues that come from thinning with "normal" lacquer thinner. I've heard that the silver bullet to all that is Mr. Color Leveling thinner... but none of the locals stock it, and I keep procrastinating when it comes to ordering overseas (wait two weeks for a bottle of thinner? meh... I'll get some later). But the locals *do* have Tamiya's lacquer thinner. I know that Leveling Thinner has a retarder in it, and I gather the normal Mr. Color thinner doesn't. Does Tamiya's lacquer thinner have a retarder? Does it perform any better than generic, hardware-store lacquer thinner? Or rather, enough better to justify being 4 - 5x the price? Though I haven't tried Tamiya Lacquer Thinner, I often use PPG Automotive Acrylic Lacquer Retarder straight as an airbrushing thinner for Mr. Color. It's strong enough to dissolve Mr. Color and appears to have no adverse effect in terms of curing or causing the paint to crawl from surface tension. I find common lacquer thinners and especially PPG 876 way too hot, which is probably why you're getting the spider webs. And while lacquer thinners do work for Mr. Color, it also works for enamels and even some water-based acrylics such as Tamiya and Aqueous Hobby Color. So, it doesn't mean that it's the best solvent for Mr. Color. My recommendation is to use Mr. Color Thinner or Leveling Thinner (or PPG Retarder) for painting, and use common lacquer thinner for cleaning. Since the Gunze thinners don't attack or craze plastic, it's another bonus. Edited July 31, 2009 by trojansamurai Quote Link to post Share on other sites
David Kalosi Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I am using Mr. Color Thinner for both gunze mr.color and tamiya acrylic paints. No issues with both of them, they are very good paints, they dry quick and produce a nice finish. The only tricky thing for me with the mr. color paints was the thinning, i found that a 70:30 (thinner to color) is what works for airbrushing, the gunze colors are much denser then the tamiya ones, with tamiya the ratio is around 30:70 - 40:60 (thinner to color). once I got this it's a pleasure to work with them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Larson Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Eric, I read the discussion at that link. I'm afraid it still amounts to hearsay. As for its rapid drying behavior, that, in itself, is not sufficient, nor is it's apparent solubility in "acrylic lacquer thinner."...... Wow..thanks for taking the time to explain. Very informative. The world of paint gets more confusing every day! I've been a long-time enamel user and have only recently ventured into the realm of newer types of hobby paint, namely Tamiya, Mr. Color, and Lifecolor. Tamiya and Mr. Color thin and spray beautifully with the 876 thinner but the Lifecolor requires its own thinner or just water. I've also done a little work with MisterKit acrylics and they like water or alcohol. I find the Tamiya paint very interesting in that it thins with water, alcohol, or the acrylic lacquer thinner! I look forward to hearing what you learn about the Mr. Color. Thanks again, Eric Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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