AH-6C, MH-6 photos from AH6C-SIP-PICS ARE BACK!

[11bee]

Great pics of AH-6Fs.

So, were AH-6Fs used in Gulf war ? And other versions ? Also, what is the best start for modellers in all the popular scales ? Maybe we (I can do that) should make a table of versions and what needs to modify on kits ...

Btw, what is on the other side of the AH-6F if it has the 7-shot LAU on the right ?

Thanks

Jakub

Jakub,

I'm by no means an expert in this area but I believe that AH-6F's were used during Operation Prime Chance which saw them in combat against Iranian forces in the Persian Gulf during the Iran - Iraq war in the 80's. I THINK that they were replaced by later versions by the time of Desert Storm.

On the other side of the helo, they mounted a single mini-gun, using the same rig as was used on Vietnam era OH-6A's.

To model the AH-6F, I think you can use the Dragon MD500 Israeli Defender kit. It has the correct 5 bladed main rotor, the pointed rear fuselage and the black hole exhaust fittings. What it doesn't have are the rocket pod and mini-gun. I am making the C model which has the same basic layout. I ended up using the Dragon OH-6A kit, with parts from the MD500 kit mentioned above graciously donated by a fellow ARC'er. I bought a resin minigun assembly from Werner's Wings and the rocket pod is coming from the MRC OH-58D kit. As you can see, it is a decent amount of effort to get all of the parts for either one of these versions.

[11bee]

Gents:

I might consider a combo sheet of 48th and 35th scale 160th SOAR subjects if there's enough interest. Sound off if you want them.

I hope to have the artwork done shortly. Check back next week. BTW there's 2 AH-6C's, 2 AH-6J's, 1 MH-60L, 1 MH-47E and 1 MH-47G on the 72nd scale sheet.

Mark

Hi Mark,

Just wondering if you have made a decision on that decal sheet with the 160th SOAR birds on it. Please advise,

John

[Six Gun]

I know I included three control heads on my model but in one of GT's pictures, it showed an AH-6 with three KY-28's so I figured that there would be three control heads as well.

John,

I'm scratching my brain a bit on this one, but I believe the 3rd box you are seeing is the Mode 4 IFF (Identify Friend or Foe). GT????

Edited September 9, 2009 by Six Gun

[Six Gun]

Hi Doug,

Lots of great information in your initial post. Not sure if you can add anything to the following questions or not:

I always thought the AH-6C's flew in Prime Chance. Didn't know that the Prime Chance Littlebirds were F models. Did the C's ever deploy over there or were they mostly just prototype Littlebirds to prove the concept before going to the F models? Would the AH-6C's have ever been fitted with the seat armor that was used on the Vietnam-era Loaches?

Where was the display for the APR39's mounted in the cockpit? The picture of the instrument panel that I got through that Freedom of Information Act request doesn't show a typical APR display (although there are a couple of unknown instruments mounted above that panel that aren't present on regular OH-6's).

If there ever was a unit called "SeaSpray" would you have any info on what type of OH-6 / MD500's they flew? Most of the info I have found out there just states that "modified" MD500's were used.

Pics of the ever-elusive EH-6 would be really interesting. I never knew that FLIR's were in service that early.

On a semi-related note, I am pondering adding a crew figure to my AH-6C model. The crew that came with the original OH-6A kit are all in Vietnam-era flight gear but it looks like it was pretty similar to what was worn in the early 80's. The only thing I would have to add would be the survival vest. I am curious though on how the PVS-5's were worn? The infantry version had a strap setup that was worn under the helmet. Is that the same type rig that was worn by flight crew or did you have the straps or a mounting bracket outside of helmet? On a side comment, you guys get huge points for flying with those things. I nearly messed myself up more than once wearing them in the woods, can't imagine how you managed to fly with those beasts. Life got much better when we got the single tube PVS-7's.

If any of these questions touch on sensitive info, then feel free to ignore them.

Regards,

John

John,

The AH-6C's never deployed to Prime Chance nor Desert Storm. By 87, the C's were well on their way to being used as trainers only for "Green Platoon", eventually to be converted into MH-6C's, strictly for training. The C's were the first AH-6's, purpose designed for a special mission, not prototypes. By 87, the F's were being converted to G's, which replaced the C20B with C30 engines, resulting in the straight exhaust, out the tail. (no more pointy egg tail).

We did not use any armor plating, until the F's, and only then if we could afford the weight increase. We did try stuffing chicken plates down the front of our survival vests(or sitting on them, depending upon which part of your anatomy you cared for the most), but at the end of the day, too bulky and cumbersome and would have severely affected the ability to exfil the aircraft in a ditching.

I may have some closeups of the vests, I'll look. The PVS-5's were intitially worn full face plate, connected to the SPH-4 Helmet with surgical tubing. The tubing terminated in snaps which snapped to the goggles where the ground head straps would have attached. They were fastened in the rear of the helmet by strain relief mounts. We velcroed a first aid pouch filled with lead shot to the back of the helmet as a counterweight. You had to release the collective, brace it with your left knee, switch hands on the cyclic, then rotate the focus knob on the right tube, in order to see the instruments clearly. When you had made your crosscheck, you returned the focus knob to infinity, then reversed the procedure. It was done very quickly, for only a glance. You flew mostly by seat of the pants and interpreting the blurred instruments relative position. All the standard red post lights and instrument lights were covered by individual, very expensive greeen glass filters. We did full touchdown autorotations using day filters or leaving the lense caps on. You have to remember we were making this stuff up as we went along. GT gave me my first (and last!) Nighthawk ride, (low level night unaided=STUPID), we clipped some trees with the skids and decided that wasn't a good idea. Eventually, we started cutting out the PVS-5 frames as much as possible and still retain some rigidity. Then someone modified a camera handhold with a ratcheting mount for some very early and crude ANVIS-6 style mounts using fibreglass. I made a dual battery box out of a radio shack kit box and parts from the PVS-5 Arctic battery kit. Even had a switch for either battery and incorporated lead for a complete battery pack/counterweight! If you had a battery failure on the PVS-5's, you had to do a battery swap single handed.

The AN APR 39 Display was (AH-6C) mounted on top of the dash in the AH-6C cockpit photos in this thread. It is the round CRT display with hashed sector markings. It basically diaplayed a strobe (like an oscilliscope), indicating the direction and intensity of the RF energy. There is a small red MA (Missle Activity) light at the top right of the display, which indicated "Missile Lock" or CW (Continuous wave) activity. In other words, you're in a pile of deep dodo.

Hope that helps. I won't be able to get to the bulk of my pictures for a week or two. When I do, I'll send them to Ray for posting.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Six Gun

[Six Gun]

Jakub,

I'm by no means an expert in this area but I believe that AH-6F's were used during Operation Prime Chance which saw them in combat against Iranian forces in the Persian Gulf during the Iran - Iraq war in the 80's. I THINK that they were replaced by later versions by the time of Desert Storm.

On the other side of the helo, they mounted a single mini-gun, using the same rig as was used on Vietnam era OH-6A's.

Correct,

Doug

[Six Gun]

AH-6F pics courtesy of Doug (Six Gun)

Ray

If anybody is interested :) , there are 2 different models pictured in the image of the birds firing rockets. The lead is an AH-6F and the wing is an AH-6G. Note the different exhausts.

[rotorwash]

If anybody is interested :) , there are 2 different models pictured in the image of the birds firing rockets. The lead is an AH-6F and the wing is an AH-6G. Note the different exhausts.

Doug,

Thanks for all the additional info. Sorry I missed the that those two birds were different models. Never noticed the exhausts till you mentioned it. Now that has to be a pretty rare pic, AH-6F and AH-6G in one shot. Thanks again for those. This thread is becoming quite interesting. Perhaps one of the mods will consider pinning it as it has to be the best info currently available on early AH-6's.

Ray

[Loach Driver]

Doug, thanks for sharing the photo of the AH-6s with the boat. Can you tell us the story behind it (if it isn't classified still)? Was it a ship used for training or was it an operational vessel. Thanks for anything you can share on this.

LD.

[JakubJakepilot]

Correct,

Doug

So, in 1:72, Italeri AH-6A kit (T-tail, 5 bladed main and 4 bladed tail rotor, no "Black Hole" exhaust) with upward swept tubes for the M-260 on the right and M134 on the left side ? Do i understand that AH-6G is just virtually AH-6F with uprated engine and different exhaust ? (No pointed "cap" on exhaust and no side exhausts on both sides)

Could be nice to draw some side profiles for each version ....

Thanks Jakub

[Chief Snake]

Hi Doug,

Lots of great information in your initial post. Not sure if you can add anything to the following questions or not:

I always thought the AH-6C's flew in Prime Chance. Didn't know that the Prime Chance Littlebirds were F models. Did the C's ever deploy over there or were they mostly just prototype Littlebirds to prove the concept before going to the F models? Would the AH-6C's have ever been fitted with the seat armor that was used on the Vietnam-era Loaches?

Where was the display for the APR39's mounted in the cockpit? The picture of the instrument panel that I got through that Freedom of Information Act request doesn't show a typical APR display (although there are a couple of unknown instruments mounted above that panel that aren't present on regular OH-6's).

If there ever was a unit called "SeaSpray" would you have any info on what type of OH-6 / MD500's they flew? Most of the info I have found out there just states that "modified" MD500's were used.

Pics of the ever-elusive EH-6 would be really interesting. I never knew that FLIR's were in service that early.

On a semi-related note, I am pondering adding a crew figure to my AH-6C model. The crew that came with the original OH-6A kit are all in Vietnam-era flight gear but it looks like it was pretty similar to what was worn in the early 80's. The only thing I would have to add would be the survival vest. I am curious though on how the PVS-5's were worn? The infantry version had a strap setup that was worn under the helmet. Is that the same type rig that was worn by flight crew or did you have the straps or a mounting bracket outside of helmet? On a side comment, you guys get huge points for flying with those things. I nearly messed myself up more than once wearing them in the woods, can't imagine how you managed to fly with those beasts. Life got much better when we got the single tube PVS-7's.

If any of these questions touch on sensitive info, then feel free to ignore them.

Regards,

John

John,

When I was in the Army Reserve the main body of the Company was based at Fort Eustis in Virginia. One of the hangars located nearby the Flight Facility Operations building was surrounded by a high security fence and there were guards within the "compound". There were a number of unusual aircraft parked in the hangar including Russian made hardware. Also, there were MD500s in the NOTAR configuration. Amongst the folks in the company who were employed as civil technicians there at the airfield this compound was commonly referred to as the "Sea Spray" compound. Other than stating the obvious which was they were operating unusual aircraft for some reason, nothing more was ever discussed about them.

Chris M

[Six Gun]

Doug, thanks for sharing the photo of the AH-6s with the boat. Can you tell us the story behind it (if it isn't classified still)? Was it a ship used for training or was it an operational vessel. Thanks for anything you can share on this.

LD.

It was leased vessel, with a landing deck. (cheaper than a Navy Frigate) out of the oil rigs. Not operational nor classified at all. It was very difficult to operate aboard a Navy ship in those days, and I understand it still aint easy.

Doug

[11bee]

Doug,

Thanks for all the additional info. Sorry I missed the that those two birds were different models. Never noticed the exhausts till you mentioned it. Now that has to be a pretty rare pic, AH-6F and AH-6G in one shot. Thanks again for those. This thread is becoming quite interesting. Perhaps one of the mods will consider pinning it as it has to be the best info currently available on early AH-6's.

Ray

Ray,

I agree, the info and pictures in this thread are pretty much unique. There is next to nothing out there, either in print or on the web that even comes close to what is in this thread. I think it would be very beneficial to pin it.

John

[11bee]

John,

The AH-6C's never deployed to Prime Chance nor Desert Storm. By 87, the C's were well on their way to being used as trainers only for "Green Platoon", eventually to be converted into MH-6C's, strictly for training. The C's were the first AH-6's, purpose designed for a special mission, not prototypes. By 87, the F's were being converted to G's, which replaced the C20B with C30 engines, resulting in the straight exhaust, out the tail. (no more pointy egg tail).

We did not use any armor plating, until the F's, and only then if we could afford the weight increase. We did try stuffing chicken plates down the front of our survival vests(or sitting on them, depending upon which part of your anatomy you cared for the most), but at the end of the day, too bulky and cumbersome and would have severely affected the ability to exfil the aircraft in a ditching.

I may have some closeups of the vests, I'll look. The PVS-5's were intitially worn full face plate, connected to the SPH-4 Helmet with surgical tubing. The tubing terminated in snaps which snapped to the goggles where the ground head straps would have attached. They were fastened in the rear of the helmet by strain relief mounts. We velcroed a first aid pouch filled with lead shot to the back of the helmet as a counterweight. You had to release the collective, brace it with your left knee, switch hands on the cyclic, then rotate the focus knob on the right tube, in order to see the instruments clearly. When you had made your crosscheck, you returned the focus knob to infinity, then reversed the procedure. It was done very quickly, for only a glance. You flew mostly by seat of the pants and interpreting the blurred instruments relative position. All the standard red post lights and instrument lights were covered by individual, very expensive greeen glass filters. We did full touchdown autorotations using day filters or leaving the lense caps on. You have to remember we were making this stuff up as we went along. GT gave me my first (and last!) Nighthawk ride, (low level night unaided=STUPID), we clipped some trees with the skids and decided that wasn't a good idea. Eventually, we started cutting out the PVS-5 frames as much as possible and still retain some rigidity. Then someone modified a camera handhold with a ratcheting mount for some very early and crude ANVIS-6 style mounts using fibreglass. I made a dual battery box out of a radio shack kit box and parts from the PVS-5 Arctic battery kit. Even had a switch for either battery and incorporated lead for a complete battery pack/counterweight! If you had a battery failure on the PVS-5's, you had to do a battery swap single handed.

The AN APR 39 Display was (AH-6C) mounted on top of the dash in the AH-6C cockpit photos in this thread. It is the round CRT display with hashed sector markings. It basically diaplayed a strobe (like an oscilliscope), indicating the direction and intensity of the RF energy. There is a small red MA (Missle Activity) light at the top right of the display, which indicated "Missile Lock" or CW (Continuous wave) activity. In other words, you're in a pile of deep dodo.

Hope that helps. I won't be able to get to the bulk of my pictures for a week or two. When I do, I'll send them to Ray for posting.

Doug,

Thanks for the info. Can one assume that the AH-6C's would have flown in Grenada? That is absolutely insane that you had to go through all of those steps to monitor your instruments. Pretty dangerous during the day, let alone flying low level at night. I didn't like walking through the woods with those things on, still can't really believe that people flew with them.

Just out of curiosity, did any of the early Littlebirds ever fly with personal / unit markings or was it just the basic "US Army & serial number"? I've seen later version Littlebirds with a pretty cool "No Fear" stencil on the nose but the early versions seem pretty plain as far as markings go.

Regards,

John

[DPD1]

It was leased vessel, with a landing deck. (cheaper than a Navy Frigate) out of the oil rigs. Not operational nor classified at all. It was very difficult to operate aboard a Navy ship in those days, and I understand it still aint easy.

Doug

When I read the name on the file, I assumed it related to the name of a survey ship being used with the USGS. Maybe it was a rig work boat back before that?

Dave

www.TheNorthSpin.com

Dedicated to Aircraft Flight Test for the Aviation Enthusiast

[AH6C-SIP]

John,

I'm scratching my brain a bit on this one, but I believe the 3rd box you are seeing is the Mode 4 IFF (Identify Friend or Foe). GT????

Yes, as memory serves now we did have the IFF. Great pics of San Clemente. Also, I must have missed a box of slides when I sent all the stuff to Ray, because I have all the overwater pictures of us landing on the USS Hermitage and the DDG-95 Scott.

You guys will have to get Doug's submarine story of our first trip to SC Island. The Narc's had captured a small submarine used to smuggle dope from Mexico. Can you guys sink it?

And if you think walking in the woods is wild on NVG's you really should try flying formation, 12-15' off the water almost 0 illumination, some sixty miles at sea.

BTW, Doug never beat me on cranking after offload. He just got offloaded first. So he had an advantage.

A real good look at the really early formation of the various units can be found on Amazon. The book is Killer Elite, and it takes from the debacle in the Eagle Claw onward. I found it facinating, because although I new I was working/flying/training with a group called FOG for a second Iranian rescue attempt, everything was very compartmentalized back then for OPSEC. This book even put things together for me some 30 years later.

NSDQ/SGDM

TOTFR 4

GT

[AH6C-SIP]

John,

I'm scratching my brain a bit on this one, but I believe the 3rd box you are seeing is the Mode 4 IFF (Identify Friend or Foe). GT????

Yes, as memory serves now we did have the IFF. Great pics of San Clemente. Also, I must have missed a box of slides when I sent all the stuff to Ray, because I have all the overwater pictures of us landing on the USS Hermitage and the DDG-95 Scott.

You guys will have to get Doug's submarine story of our first trip to SC Island. The Narc's had captured a small submarine used to smuggle dope from Mexico. Can you guys sink it?

And if you think walking in the woods is wild on NVG's you really should try flying formation, 12-15' off the water almost 0 illumination, some sixty miles at sea.

BTW, Doug never beat me on cranking after offload. He just got offloaded first. So he had an advantage.

A real good look at the really early formation of the various units can be found on Amazon. The book is Killer Elite, and it takes from the debacle in the Eagle Claw onward. I found it facinating, because although I new I was working/flying/training with a group called FOG for a second Iranian rescue attempt, everything was very compartmentalized back then for OPSEC. This book even put things together for me some 30 years later.

NSDQ/SGDM

TOTFR 4

GT

[JakubJakepilot]

How looks the weapon pylons on AH-6G ? Are they same as the F or J ? Two hardpoints ? Four hardpoints ? Any pics ?

Want to build one in 1:48 from Academy kits plus scratchbuilding, but I am lacking pics.

Thanks in advance.

Jakub

[AH6C-SIP]

How looks the weapon pylons on AH-6G ? Are they same as the F or J ? Two hardpoints ? Four hardpoints ? Any pics ?

Want to build one in 1:48 from Academy kits plus scratchbuilding, but I am lacking pics.

Thanks in advance.

Jakub

Jakub, according to "Six Gun" Doug, in the picture on page four here on the forum, the second aircraft is an AH-6G. Note the absence of the exhaust cone, and "ears" as the first one...an AH-6F has.

BTW, for everyones edification, this exhautst configuration was first adapted on the OH-6A's in Vietnam in 1972 after the NVA started firing SA-9 (Strella) MANPADs at us. Cobra modelers will note the appearance of the toilet bowls during the same period.

NSDQ/SGDM

GT

[JakubJakepilot]

Jakub, according to "Six Gun" Doug, in the picture on page four here on the forum, the second aircraft is an AH-6G. Note the absence of the exhaust cone, and "ears" as the first one...an AH-6F has.

BTW, for everyones edification, this exhautst configuration was first adapted on the OH-6A's in Vietnam in 1972 after the NVA started firing SA-9 (Strella) MANPADs at us. Cobra modelers will note the appearance of the toilet bowls during the same period.

NSDQ/SGDM

GT

I know, that pic is my basic pic for my future build (didn´t find any other AH-6G pic so far). But, from that pic, the weapon pylons are not so clearly seen. It looks that they are just for one weapon on a side instead of two as mounted on the AH-6J. True ? Any closeups ?

Thanks.

Also the cocpit and antenna mounting could be nice as a reference B)

[11bee]

I know, that pic is my basic pic for my future build (didn´t find any other AH-6G pic so far). But, from that pic, the weapon pylons are not so clearly seen. It looks that they are just for one weapon on a side instead of two as mounted on the AH-6J. True ? Any closeups ?

Thanks.

Also the cocpit and antenna mounting could be nice as a reference

Hi Jakub,

I'm pretty sure the C and F models only had a single weapon per side. Minigun on the left and rocket pod on the right. The later models had the "plank" with mounting points for both mini and rockets on each side.

I would love to see any pictures that show how the rocket pod was mounted to the early Littlebirds. Some of the pictures that Cobra Historian & Rotorwash posted way back show some of the details but I still don't fully "get" how the rocket pod was attached. It looks like it rotated 90 degrees and has a tubular pylon plus some smaller diameter braces keeping it secured. It also looks like there is a cable running from right behind the pilot's seat on the outside of the fuselage to the pod itself. However, it is tough to understand the exact layout.

As always, any info is most greatly appreciated.

John

[Loach Driver]

I was just looking through Wayne Mutza's book "Loach" and on page 85 there is a photo of three AH-6s hovering behind the landing pad of a ship. The pad is white with red markings. Given the similar layout of the landing pad in that photo (in the book) and the photo above, maybe they are of the same vessel?

Graham, Doug and Ray; Thanks for all the great images and information in this thread. If there are more photos and stories in the vault, please keep 'em coming!

LD.

[Six Gun]

How looks the weapon pylons on AH-6G ? Are they same as the F or J ? Two hardpoints ? Four hardpoints ? Any pics ?

Want to build one in 1:48 from Academy kits plus scratchbuilding, but I am lacking pics.

Thanks in advance.

Jakub

The rocket mount in the pictures from the museum are correct. The main cylinder shown is a jettison device. The mount slid into the jacking point, and the 2 arms picked up other attaching points. We actually hung 19 shot pods on this same mount. The "excess" GW was supposed be jettisoned in the event of engine failure. Yeah right!

This mount was used until the "plank" came along sometime in the late 80's IIRC. So it would be correct on the C, F and G model, I think the plank would be correct on G and later.

Doug

[Six Gun]

Doug,

Thanks for the info. Can one assume that the AH-6C's would have flown in Grenada? That is absolutely insane that you had to go through all of those steps to monitor your instruments. Pretty dangerous during the day, let alone flying low level at night. I didn't like walking through the woods with those things on, still can't really believe that people flew with them.

Just out of curiosity, did any of the early Littlebirds ever fly with personal / unit markings or was it just the basic "US Army & serial number"? I've seen later version Littlebirds with a pretty cool "No Fear" stencil on the nose but the early versions seem pretty plain as far as markings go.

Regards,

John

Hey John,

Yes, the C's were used in Grenada. There's actually a news clip taken from a hillside showing GT and his copilot Cpt. Mike Timpani being fired upon (that's Popcorn Big Guy!) and turning around over a bay. The attack went during the daylight, because the Navy CINC for the m ission wouldn't believe the capability of the TF. It was that classified. So after Grenada, we started doing "Dog and Pony" shows (capability demonstrations) for every flag officer they could find. Those had some funny moments! We would put VIP's in the left seat of a gun bird or a MH and they would fly a short mission with us, culminating in a live fire. I thoroughly enjoyed pulling the trigger on that minigun with a pompous 4 star or politician sitting right next to it.! If they were real jerks, we put em in the flare launch bird. More than one had to be helped from the cockpit. Too fun!

As far as markings, there were no markings on the C's other than tail number and US Army. We did have few on the G's. I've got a good shot of a Skull and Crossbones on the nose of a G from Prime Chance somewhere.

Doug

[GIranger]

Love your post as I too love the Little Bird. Found your site from Military Photos.com I started out back in 91' in 2/75th Rangers and as a 13F(Forward Observer) we jumped into Ft Cambell to do some training with 160th. We did a week there calling in Little Birds (at the time very secret). I've got some personal photos but no way to scan them. After I left the Army in 99 I worked for MD Helicopters which at the time had the rights to the LB. After a few years there I became a Tech Rep for MD and was put in charge of the LB project. I worked closely with 160th on issues and even visited them again (this time as a technical rep). Got a few pics then also. After MD I was hired by L3 Communications and was in charge of production (retrofitting) of the Little Birds. I have a ton of personal photos and others that I acquired while working there (dont work there anymore). I have no way to upload them all and can only do a few. I have a ton up close and personal as I was planning on making an AH/6M from one of those 1/12 scale (i think) Little Birds. Never got as far as I wanted to as my kids got older and their sports took over mine LOL Will try to get some pics here in the near future......

[rotorwash]

Love your post as I too love the Little Bird. Found your site from Military Photos.com I started out back in 91' in 2/75th Rangers and as a 13F(Forward Observer) we jumped into Ft Cambell to do some training with 160th. We did a week there calling in Little Birds (at the time very secret). I've got some personal photos but no way to scan them. After I left the Army in 99 I worked for MD Helicopters which at the time had the rights to the LB. After a few years there I became a Tech Rep for MD and was put in charge of the LB project. I worked closely with 160th on issues and even visited them again (this time as a technical rep). Got a few pics then also. After MD I was hired by L3 Communications and was in charge of production (retrofitting) of the Little Birds. I have a ton of personal photos and others that I acquired while working there (dont work there anymore). I have no way to upload them all and can only do a few. I have a ton up close and personal as I was planning on making an AH/6M from one of those 1/12 scale (i think) Little Birds. Never got as far as I wanted to as my kids got older and their sports took over mine LOL Will try to get some pics here in the near future......

Welcome to the forum and I said in the PM from Military Photos, thanks for your service! It's always great to hear this stuff first hand.

Ray