AH-6C, MH-6 photos from AH6C-SIP-PICS ARE BACK!

[AH6C-SIP]

That sounds like a phoney name. I would have used something better like "Clutch Grabwell".

I wonder if Mr. Tatum flew for a different employer?

Hi John, I googled this Tatum guy, and there is all kinds of stuff about him being CIA and Black Ops, with UTube video's and all. But I don't know him. How do you start out as an Air Force guy in the 70's in Vietnam, then poof, you are flying with the 160th. Anyway, guess the new baby is about ready for High School by now. Hope all is well. Bests, GT

[FM-Whip]

Hi John, I googled this Tatum guy, and there is all kinds of stuff about him being CIA and Black Ops, with UTube video's and all. But I don't know him. How do you start out as an Air Force guy in the 70's in Vietnam, then poof, you are flying with the 160th. Anyway, guess the new baby is about ready for High School by now. Hope all is well. Bests, GT

I also like the caption bit about "over 74 bullet holes" in his aircraft. Is that like 75, or 76, or 74.5? :-)

I'd like to know the source of the photo.

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

Edited November 9, 2012 by FM-Whip

[doupnik]

When did the AH-6s go to the weapons plank with a M-134 and M-260 on each side? Was it AH-6Js only, or did the earlier AH-6s after the AH-6C get it?

Thanks,

mason

[Loach Driver]

This "Chip Tatum" character has certainly got things hopping here! That photo of him standing by the tail rotor is a photo from a U.S. newspaper that was published at the time of the Grenada operation. If you go through his video interviews on youtube, he mentions it but I can't recall if he says exactly what newspaper it is. As you say, GT, it seems very strange that he claims to be a Night Stalker even though he comes from a non-aviation background prior to joining the unit?

GT, here is one of your photos (I think) and if you look at the third MH-6E from the right, it looks like it has various boxes under the tailboom and maybe has the Omega brick. There is no sign of a four blade tail rotor though. I have another photo on a broken hard drive that definitely shows an MH-6E with the Omega brick. GT, can you recall what the significance was of the white crosses on some of these lift birds? Were they designated medevac birds?

Since Grenada is topical here at the moment, I thought I'd post this photo as well. Does your AH-6C feature in this photo, GT? Edit: I also just noticed that the C on the right doesn't seem to be fitted with the minigun ammo box and maybe it also doesn't have a minigun fitted at all. Could it be an EH-6B? Did the EH-6 go to Grenada, from what you can recall?

Thanks.

LD.

P.S. Mason, I think the big, four-point, armament wing arrived with the AH-6G and the C-30 engine. I'm just basing this theory on all the various photos available. The AH-6F (armed MH-6E) was based on the Hughes 500D airframe and that still had the minigun-and-single rocket pod set-up used on the AH-6C.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Loach Driver

[11bee]

P.S. Mason, I think the big, four-point, armament wing arrived with the AH-6G and the C-30 engine. I'm just basing this theory on all the various photos available. The AH-6F (armed MH-6E) was based on the Hughes 500D airframe and that still had the minigun-and-single rocket pod set-up used on the AH-6C.

Fascinating stuff for sure.

With regard to the above question, I thought another 160th vet (Killing Stone) mentioned that the early G models still had the original weapons setup of the C. Later on, they were retrofitted with the plank w/ the 4 mounting points. Thought he also mentioned that there may have been an interim setup on the G's between these two.

Edited November 9, 2012 by 11bee

[FM-Whip]

Fascinating stuff for sure.

With regard to the above question, I thought another 160th vet (Killing Stone) mentioned that the early G models still had the original weapons setup of the C. Later on, they were retrofitted with the plank w/ the 4 mounting points. Thought he also mentioned that there may have been an interim setup on the G's between these two.

I've never been able to get a handle on the multiple generations of planks and when they came into use on what airframes. The photographic record has been so spotty that it's hard to tell what they did over the years. I think there was an interim plank on the Gs at some time but can't prove it. Just like the various seats have not been fully documented either...

Durant says in his book they used actual 55-gallon drums cut in half for early external seats. I've seen several photos of half-round seats but they don't look like drums cut in half. On top of that it looks like there were multiple types of half-round seats.

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

[FM-Whip]

This "Chip Tatum" character has certainly got things hopping here! That photo of him standing by the tail rotor is a photo from a U.S. newspaper that was published at the time of the Grenada operation. If you go through his video interviews on youtube, he mentions it but I can't recall if he says exactly what newspaper it is. As you say, GT, it seems very strange that he claims to be a Night Stalker even though he comes from a non-aviation background prior to joining the unit?

From the site I looked at he claims to have been a USAF combat controller in SEA, and then got a warrant appointment in the Army. He does not mention learning to fly helicopters anywhere but he may have already have had a license prior to that. From my experience, direct warrant office appointments are rare, though I've heard of a very few. And why make the guy a W.O.? They could have made him a commissioned officer. There's a lot there in that story which is strange - CCT in SEA, captured and held as a POW, rescued then on to a career which covers the 160th, the CIA, the Contras, Iran-Contra, counter-narc ops, etc. And he claims to have worked as a direct asset of William Colby (his personal handler), who was CIA director at the time.

Does this not smell a bit?

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

[rotorwash]

From the site I looked at he claims to have been a USAF combat controller in SEA, and then got a warrant appointment in the Army. He does not mention learning to fly helicopters anywhere but he may have already have had a license prior to that. From my experience, direct warrant office appointments are rare, though I've heard of a very few. And why make the guy a W.O.? They could have made him a commissioned officer. There's a lot there in that story which is strange - CCT in SEA, captured and held as a POW, rescued then on to a career which covers the 160th, the CIA, the Contras, Iran-Contra, counter-narc ops, etc. And he claims to have worked as a direct asset of William Colby (his personal handler), who was CIA director at the time.

Does this not smell a bit?

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

I have to say that I have the audio from one of his Youtube videos playing in the background and what he's saying just doesn't jive with how a pilot would talk about a mission to my civilian ears. Hard to say exactly why that is, but I just get this sense every now and then that he might just be making some of it up as he goes. What do i know though, I've certainly never been in combat.

Ray

[Killing Stone]

I would find it a bit surprising that someone flying with what was then a classified unit would have willingly given his name to a passing reporter. Interesting comment about the "missile-laden" Littlebird. I guess the press doesn't know the difference between a rocket and a missile :)

I don't know a Chip Tatum either and the person standing in the photo does not look like anyone I know, I don't recall 4 bladed tail rotor 6's headed out to Grenada either but it could have happened I guess, it's been a long time to remember all the specifics, is it possible for a news story the paper "photo shopped" something together just to have something to print, you know the media wouldn't do something like that right???

[Killing Stone]

MH-6E with four-blade tail rotor.

Here are a couple of photos that I think show the MH-6E in Grenada with the four-blade tail rotor. The four-blade tail rotor was commercially available by 1983 so it looks like the 160th decided to try it out on their MH-6Es. From what I've been told, the four-blade TR had less TR authority than the standard two blade rotor but it was a lot quieter.

I think you can just make out a four blade tail rotor on the MH-6E on the left of the photo above.

Does anyone have any more photos of the MH-6E with a four blade tail rotor? Thanks.

LD.

In the top pic, one of these has a mini and rocket pod which if its a true pic from Granada would mean it is a C model, I just can't tell what is going on with the second aircraft in the top pic.

The bottom pic seems suspect to many here and it seems suspect to me also

[Killing Stone]

I've never been able to get a handle on the multiple generations of planks and when they came into use on what airframes. The photographic record has been so spotty that it's hard to tell what they did over the years. I think there was an interim plank on the Gs at some time but can't prove it. Just like the various seats have not been fully documented either...

Durant says in his book they used actual 55-gallon drums cut in half for early external seats. I've seen several photos of half-round seats but they don't look like drums cut in half. On top of that it looks like there were multiple types of half-round seats.

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

The first plank with a mini and rocket pod on each side showed up on the G model, I don't remember what year but certainly after Panama time frame and before the first Gulf War, later versions were built, I don't know how many versions or when but they were lighter/better than the orginal version which I would not say was interm but was the first shot at building one, later versions were better/lighter, again it is a process where after you get one in hand and use it for a while you find ways to improve it.

I don't know anything about cut up 55 gal drums being used for people planks but some of the early models somewhat resembled/looked sort of like they could have been which may have given rise to someone thinking they were build from a 55 gal drum, I don't believe they were and someone would have to prove that to me, however I'm was a gun guy not a lift guy for what it is worth.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Killing Stone

[11bee]

From the site I looked at he claims to have been a USAF combat controller in SEA, and then got a warrant appointment in the Army. He does not mention learning to fly helicopters anywhere but he may have already have had a license prior to that. From my experience, direct warrant office appointments are rare, though I've heard of a very few. And why make the guy a W.O.? They could have made him a commissioned officer. There's a lot there in that story which is strange - CCT in SEA, captured and held as a POW, rescued then on to a career which covers the 160th, the CIA, the Contras, Iran-Contra, counter-narc ops, etc. And he claims to have worked as a direct asset of William Colby (his personal handler), who was CIA director at the time.

Does this not smell a bit?

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

Interesting guy (if you believe everything that's online). Reminds me of Col Flagg from M*A*S*H.

Whoever that person is in the Grenada picture, I have a feeling his real story is probably pretty fascinating.

[Killing Stone]

Hey my Brother! Did you also still carry a five gallon cans and donkey dick to refuel? GT

Hey GT, we may have at first, but I can't remember for sure, after a while we didn't carry the extra rockets because we found we didn't need them for off launch site reloads. Say helo to Doug for me if you see him.

[Killing Stone]

From the site I looked at he claims to have been a USAF combat controller in SEA, and then got a warrant appointment in the Army. He does not mention learning to fly helicopters anywhere but he may have already have had a license prior to that. From my experience, direct warrant office appointments are rare, though I've heard of a very few. And why make the guy a W.O.? They could have made him a commissioned officer. There's a lot there in that story which is strange - CCT in SEA, captured and held as a POW, rescued then on to a career which covers the 160th, the CIA, the Contras, Iran-Contra, counter-narc ops, etc. And he claims to have worked as a direct asset of William Colby (his personal handler), who was CIA director at the time.

Does this not smell a bit?

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

I hope Chip Tatum doesn't believe his own hype

[11bee]

I hope Chip Tatum doesn't believe his own hype

A Google search on the guy states that he washed ashore in Panama a few year ago with a perforated cranium.

[FM-Whip]

Here are the earliest US Army OH-6 pics I have showing a 4 bladed tail rotor. Unfortunately, there was no specific info with these slides so I don't know anything other than it is almost certainly a Aviation Test Board asset. One of your guys who are H-6 experts can probably confirm or deny this based on the T-tail and 5 bladed main rotor, but the white UH-1 medivac birds in the background with the large external fuel tanks date these photos to the 70's sometime, I think. If anyone is familiar with this specific aircraft, I'd love to know the story on the tail rotor mod and the unique camo paint job.

Ray

Digging a little bit on 65-12951:

That a/c is registered as N45777, to Summit Helicopter Services, Charlotte, NC. An old posting on PPRUNE has info that it was a testbed, had armament door cutouts on both sides, various stiffeners added to the fuselage, 400 shp C20 engine, a 5-blade M/R, reached 322 kmh in a flight from Edwards, and later reverted back to a V-tail. Wayne Mutza's Loach book (page 72) has a photo of a more extensively modified 12951 with a bizarre-looking HGS-22 minigun mount, which was extendable/retractable. There's also a photo there of a 4-bladed V-tail aircraft.

12951 was one of the two unofficial "OH-6Cs", with 65-12968, which previously had been "The Quiet One", and which is now registered as N45780, Helton Volunteer Search & Rescue, Danville, IN.

12951 and 12968 are both connected in one way or another with the NOH-6P/500P covert ops and research stuff. I have a feeling that there are some unresolved airframe serial issues with the known NOH-6P/500P birds and their Army cousins. There's also 66-17825, currently registered as N13SD.

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

[FM-Whip]

A Google search on the guy states that he washed ashore in Panama a few year ago with a perforated cranium.

"just a flesh wound"...

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

[11bee]

I don't know anything about cut up 55 gal drums being used for people planks but some of the early models somewhat resembled/looked sort of like they could have been which may have given rise to someone thinking they were build from a 55 gal drum, I don't believe they were and someone would have to prove that to me, however I'm was a gun guy not a lift guy for what it is worth.

Speaking as a haz-waste guy that has spent way too much time around 55 gallon drums, I can tell you that there is no reason why a cut up drum would be used as part of a plank. The shell of a drum is so thin that it offers pretty much no structural support. Not sure why the early people planks were semi-cylindrical but I can't imagine that they would have used steel drums for the structure. Plenty of other materials that offer much more support than thin gauge steel.

Plus 55 gal drums have a couple of ribs on them and the pictures I've seen don't seem to show anything like that.

[rotorwash]

New pic for the group. This photo is of two birds identified as "AH-6B's" at Yuma Proving Grounds. Photo is from the Wayne Mutza collection and seems to have originally came from Hugh Mills. However,there is also another name on the back, Rob Ruck. Could this have been the photographer? As these birds are fairly early, I was also wondering if one of our esteemed Night Stalkers might be at the controls of one of them. I can read the serial on the closest bird and it is 17298. These birds also have the "black hole" exhaust that has been discussed recently. Hope this one is of interest to the group.

Ray

Close up of the helos:

[Loach Driver]

As always Ray, you come up with the goods. A big thanks for posting the best version of this particular photo yet. I think this was the first photo I ever saw of the AH-6C, when it featured in Wayne's book, "Loach". It is still in my top five favourite photos of the AH-6C. All the rest are GT's!

I think this photo has a real cinematic feel to it. It looks like it might be taken from a scene in "Capricorn One" or even the oil-rig attack scene from the 007 movie "Diamonds Are Forever".

Well done as well on identifying the serial number on the nearest ship. There is nothing wrong with your eyesight.

LD.

[AH6C-SIP]

As always Ray, you come up with the goods. A big thanks for posting the best version of this particular photo yet. I think this was the first photo I ever saw of the AH-6C, when it featured in Wayne's book, "Loach". It is still in my top five favourite photos of the AH-6C. All the rest are GT's!

I think this photo has a real cinematic feel to it. It looks like it might be taken from a scene in "Capricorn One" or even the oil-rig attack scene from the 007 movie "Diamonds Are Forever".

Well done as well on identifying the serial number on the nearest ship. There is nothing wrong with your eyesight.

LD.

Hi all! These are AH-6C's from the original six. I'm thinking these photos were take on a day recon for a mission originating at China Lake, flying down Death Valley, then up into the mountains for a little shoot 'em up. I'm thinking this is the mission where we shot up the million dollar Radar Van, that was not suppose to be at our target location. I don't think we've ever been invited back to China Lake... but that's another story. See the earlier photo of our LB's sitting in front of the B-47... that's China Lake. But the Chocolate Mountais look like this too around YPG, and it has been 30 years.

For this PIN, the original six guns tail numbers were: 17191, 17298, 17054, 17307, 17317, and 17228.

The first T Tails did not have 55 gallon drums for planks. Check the first photos on this pin.

I believe the AH-6C on the Grenada photo to be my 17191. I had sustained damage from AK fire to two of the blades, the control rods to the swash plate, and radio the compartment so bad that we could not start the aircraft to fly from the West end of the runway to the East end for pickup by C-141. That's why it's sitting there waiting... the others came later. One of those blades use to be in the B Company briefing room.

John H, I'll probably see Doug next Tuesday. We work together for Ron How... Al Weil... is also with us. I'll say hi to all for you.

Edited November 10, 2012 by AH6C-SIP

[Loach Driver]

GT, you just HAVE to tell us the story about the million dollar Radar Van. It sounds like a story worth hearing! If the Navy were fool enough to park their van on your range, well, they can only blame themselves. C'mon, spill the beans.

LD.

[AH6C-SIP]

GT, you just HAVE to tell us the story about the million dollar Radar Van. It sounds like a story worth hearing! If the Navy were fool enough to park their van on your range, well, they can only blame themselves. C'mon, spill the beans.

LD.

Well since you asked! As in the picture, we arrived at China Lake (CL) to do overland navigation, culminating in a live fire exercise. We flew the route in the daytime, checking for any hazards. Flew East from CL, then up Death Valley to a checkpoint, then started up into the mountains where we would enter the area where we were to shoot. That night we did it all over again. It's amazing how the temps can change from the desert floor up to 8000 feet. OAT went from like plus 15 to minus 15 really quickly. I mean it was cold, no doors, wind whipping into the cockpit.

All went as planned and when we arrived at the impact area we began to shoot up the Radar Van....booom booom booom, Gun, Guns, Gun, on the emitter! Satisfied that we had totally, I meam totally destroyed the target we returned back to CL. The tires were burning like in the Arab Spring. The next day we were to repeat the exercise... well at some point the Navy figured out that we had destroyed this Radar Van... why it was where it was is still a mystery, but the Navy was PO'd. We shot were we were cleared to shoot. They couldn't question that... but the next day as we approached the target area again, and they heard our rotors coming in the area again, folks started poring out of all the vans around the entire area...certain that we had them in our sights as well. I had the 160th CO (Sottak) with me. He loved to shoot the mini. Well in the end the Navy asked us never to return. I guess you had to be there to appreciate the event.

Anecdotally, I had a white turtle neck sweater under my flight suit to try and stay warm. One of the rocket was fired out of trim and a piece off the rear of the rocket... small piece of wire, blew inside and hit me in the face. I was so cold I didn't feel it, but you know how facial wounds are, and the wind blew blood all over my face and white turtle. When we went into the after mission brief folks looked at me in horror. It was nothing, but a scratch... but it made me look somewhat terrifying. And that's the way in was in May 1983...And now you know...the rest of the story!

Best to all, GT

Edited November 10, 2012 by AH6C-SIP

[FM-Whip]

Well since you asked! As in the picture, we arrived at China Lake (CL) to do overland navigation, culminating in a live fire exercise. We flew the route in the daytime, checking for any hazards. Flew East from CL, then up Death Valley to a checkpoint, then started up into the mountains where we would enter the area where we were to shoot. That night we did it all over again. It's amazing how the temps can change from the desert floor up to 8000 feet. OAT went from like plus 15 to minus 15 really quickly. I mean it was cold, no doors, wind whipping into the cockpit.

All went as planned and when we arrived at the impact area we began to shoot up the Radar Van....booom booom booom, Gun, Guns, Gun, on the emitter! Satisfied that we had totally, I meam totally destroyed the target we returned back to CL. The tires were burning like in the Arab Spring. The next day we were to repeat the exercise... well at some point the Navy figured out that we had destroyed this Radar Van... why it was where it was is still a mystery, but the Navy was PO'd. We shot were we were cleared to shoot. They couldn't question that... but the next day as we approached the target area again, and they heard our rotors coming in the area again, folks started poring out of all the vans around the entire area...certain that we had them in our sights as well. I had the 160th CO (Sottak) with me. He loved to shoot the mini. Well in the end the Navy asked us never to return. I guess you had to be there to appreciate the event.

Anecdotally, I had a white turtle neck sweater under my flight suit to try and stay warm. One of the rocket was fired out of trim and a piece off the rear of the rocket... small piece of wire, blew inside and hit me in the face. I was so cold I didn't feel it, but you know how facial wounds are, and the wind blew blood all over my face and white turtle. When we went into the after mission brief folks looked at me in horror. It was nothing, but a scratch... but it made me look somewhat terrifying. And that's the way in was in May 1983...And now you know...the rest of the story!

Best to all, GT

For you NSDQ guys, I have a question - I have a very poor photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy of a picture which shows a crashed LB, probably an MH-6B or AH-6C, in what is probably a desert environment. The aircraft appears to have rolled on impact. There's a pilot standing next to it, wearing a flight suit. He's also wearing tennis shoes. Anybody you guys know?

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

[Rigid Rotorhead]

Digging a little bit on 65-12951:

That a/c is registered as N45777, to Summit Helicopter Services, Charlotte, NC. An old posting on PPRUNE has info that it was a testbed, had armament door cutouts on both sides, various stiffeners added to the fuselage, 400 shp C20 engine, a 5-blade M/R, reached 322 kmh in a flight from Edwards, and later reverted back to a V-tail. Wayne Mutza's Loach book (page 72) has a photo of a more extensively modified 12951 with a bizarre-looking HGS-22 minigun mount, which was extendable/retractable. There's also a photo there of a 4-bladed V-tail aircraft.

12951 was one of the two unofficial "OH-6Cs", with 65-12968, which previously had been "The Quiet One", and which is now registered as N45780, Helton Volunteer Search & Rescue, Danville, IN.

12951 and 12968 are both connected in one way or another with the NOH-6P/500P covert ops and research stuff. I have a feeling that there are some unresolved airframe serial issues with the known NOH-6P/500P birds and their Army cousins. There's also 66-17825, currently registered as N13SD.

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

All,

Regarding the OH-6C, the following is an excerpt from my 2009 Vertiflite article on the evolution of the H-6:

Anticipating success with the OH-6A even before it entered operational service, Hughes had plans for a variant with an uprated engine, but this proposed “OH-6B†never left the drawing board. Moving forward, Hughes successfully flew a Cayuse demonstrator in 1971 with even more modifications designed to improve upon the basic A-model. Assigned the unofficial designation OH-6C within the company, it featured not only an uprated engine, but also a five-bladed main rotor, a four-bladed tail rotor, a T-tail and various detail improvements. In addition, it made extensive use of internal sound-deadening materials like those used on the Quiet One. The 400 shp Allison 250-C20 shaft turbine engine, a commercial version of the T63, permitted a top speed of 200 mph during tests at Edwards AFB. Ultimately, the Army did not procure the OH-6C and it remained a one-off company demonstrator. However, many of its features were later incorporated into the Army’s AH/MH-6 Special Operations variants. The more powerful engine was later fitted to commercial variants of the OH-6.

The article included one of the photos seen here, kindly provided to me by Ray Wilhite (Rotorwash).

Anyway, I hope this helps a bit...