AH6C-SIP Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Gents:I might consider a combo sheet of 48th and 35th scale 160th SOAR subjects if there's enough interest. Sound off if you want them. I hope to have the artwork done shortly. Check back next week. BTW there's 2 AH-6C's, 2 AH-6J's, 1 MH-60L, 1 MH-47E and 1 MH-47G on the 72nd scale sheet. Mark Mark, I must apologize but I have misplaced your email addy, and of course the Word doc descripton of the a/c color schemes, etc. Unfortunately, I could not help you on the 47 and 60, but the exterior colors are the same for all a/c and belive the lettering is OD thoughout the fleet. If you would still like me to review, please email them to me. Graham Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grandadjohn Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 If you do one in 1/48th, I'll get one Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JakubJakepilot Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) Hi gents, as I was looking at some new info about SpecOps helos, i was looking for them which were used during Gulf war. So I compiled a table of H-6, MH-47D and MH-60A. Check it here: Helo table Please, send additions/corrections eithere here or to my email, will correct the info ASAP. I divided the H-6 conversions to columns, so each column is one version and so you can see from which original (mainly OH-6A) they reach the final version. For MH-60As, so far, i was able to find only ONE serial number (there must be more, i know that for sure) - any help here ? And what are those mysterious 06-xxxxx serials for MH-47Ds ? Were they rebuilt so they got new serials ? EDIT: They are rebuilt to MH-47G specs so hence the new serials. Best regards Jakub Edited August 5, 2009 by JakubJakepilot Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Gents:I might consider a combo sheet of 48th and 35th scale 160th SOAR subjects if there's enough interest. Sound off if you want them. I hope to have the artwork done shortly. Check back next week. BTW there's 2 AH-6C's, 2 AH-6J's, 1 MH-60L, 1 MH-47E and 1 MH-47G on the 72nd scale sheet. Mark I'd been in for one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Hi gents,as I was looking at some new info about SpecOps helos, i was looking for them which were used during Gulf war. So I compiled a table of H-6, MH-47D and MH-60A. Check it here: Helo table Please, send additions/corrections eithere here or to my email, will correct the info ASAP. I divided the H-6 conversions to columns, so each column is one version and so you can see from which original (mainly OH-6A) they reach the final version. For MH-60As, so far, i was able to find only ONE serial number (there must be more, i know that for sure) - any help here ? And what are those mysterious 06-xxxxx serials for MH-47Ds ? Were they rebuilt so they got new serials ? EDIT: They are rebuilt to MH-47G specs so hence the new serials. Best regards Jakub Interesting table. Some of those littlebirds have seen some serious upgrades over the years. At this point it appears that the title for the most camera shy variant goes to the EH-6B. To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a single picture of this helicopter ever released. I read somewhere that the EH-6B's were actually operated by the ultra-covert Seaspray in civilian markings. Who knows if that is true or not... John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EDWMatt Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 I know the 160th also tested the NOTAR concept and found them to be underpowered "Underpowered" is not entirely accurate. The two AH-6N's had the 650shp T703 engine installed, same as the J model. The airframes were essentially 500MD's, however, and still had the 272shp transmission rating. The 160th was desperate for any increase in performance, and MD sold them on the idea that the NOTAR was not only stealthy, but more efficient. The NOTAR was, of course, a retrofit to the 369/500 series, however, and was not optimized. Flight testing reveled that, in some flight conditions, there was between a 1 and 4% INCREASE in power required over the standard tail rotor. The 160th, not wanting ANY decrease in performance (however small) lost interest in the project. Here's a pic of one of the two converted AH-6N's This airframe later became the MELB prototype, and was written off when it crashed while performing height/velocity testing at Alamosa, CO Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grandadjohn Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Not to totally disagree, but the Phoenix Police Department, who used NOTAR's for 20 some years had the same complaint, underpowered Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AH6C-SIP Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 That would be this pic. Yes, that's a "hot" re-arm. We would roll the throttle back to flight idle, and friction down the controls an get out, re-arm, and get back in and takeoff. Takes to much time to shut down every time. Hope this helps. GT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EDWMatt Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Not to totally disagree, but the Phoenix Police Department, who used NOTAR's for 20 some years had the same complaint, underpowered With only a 4% difference in directional power required (and only in certain flight conditions- hovering with a quartering tailwind) for the NOTAR, the NOTAR will not be noticeably "underpowered" compared to an equivalent conventional 500 (the 500E). Since the largest engine in commercial 520N's is the 450shp C20R, I suspect the performance deficiency is more directly related to high density altitude. The 160th did not abandon the AH-6N because it was "underpowered" compared to the AH-6J, but because it offered no performance increase over the AH-6J, which was already marginal. The AH-6J's were operated at very high weights (significantly higher than a commercial 500) and the low main transmission rating resulted in poor performance, despite the large engine installed. They solved the problem with the MELB, with it's improved rotor and drive system. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rotorwash Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 John (11bee) was nice enough to send me the photos he received of the AH-6C cockpit through his freedom of information request. I scanned them and here they are. Thanks John for sharing these. Ray Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Avus Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 This thread is getting better and better! Thanks John (11bee) for sharing and Ray for scanning/posting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ro-Gar Hobbies Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Wow, this has to be one of the best Postings/threads I have read in awhile. Thanks Ray for the cool pictures! Robert Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Thanks for posting these Ray. For a helicopter that as of a few months ago had just about zero images of it in the public domain, it is amazing how much is now available. I'm going blind trying to figure out how that %&^* rear compartment is laid out but all in all, there is finally enough good material available to build one of these birds. Thanks again to GT for the most excellent pictures. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AH6C-SIP Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Thanks for posting these Ray. For a helicopter that as of a few months ago had just about zero images of it in the public domain, it is amazing how much is now available. I'm going blind trying to figure out how that %&^* rear compartment is laid out but all in all, there is finally enough good material available to build one of these birds. Thanks again to GT for the most excellent pictures. John Hi John, on the box in the rear. I don't have any close ups, but the box...really an avionics shelf made from sheet metal, was used to mount two KY-58s and some other avionics gear. If you look closely at the pictures, provided here by Ray, of 17191 with my younger self proudly standing by the left/minigun side, you can see the avionics behind the ammo can. So, rectangular black box, with two Ky's shouck mounteded in a V array with some additional wiring that went to the antennae. Remember, you can see two FM antennae mid tailboom, right by the slime light. Hope this helps. NSDQ/SGDM GT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) Hi John, on the box in the rear. I don't have any close ups, but the box...really an avionics shelf made from sheet metal, was used to mount two KY-58s and some other avionics gear. If you look closely at the pictures, provided here by Ray, of 17191 with my younger self proudly standing by the left/minigun side, you can see the avionics behind the ammo can. So, rectangular black box, with two Ky's shouck mounteded in a V array with some additional wiring that went to the antennae. Remember, you can see two FM antennae mid tailboom, right by the slime light.Hope this helps. NSDQ/SGDM GT Hi GT, I think I got the general layout ok. I've fabricated a couple of pretty decent KY-58's from resin and scrap PE. It's all the other little details that I am trying to get a handle on. On the pics of you with 17191, I'm trying to figure out how to replicate the electrical wiring that seems to be coming down the side of the KY-58. It also looks like there is a mounting bracket for another KY-58 outboard of the one that is currently installed. In a picture of another AH-6C, there are two KY-58's mounted facing outwards (left), that is why I am assuming that there may be a bracket in that position. Also, by blowing up those pictures, I have been able to scratch build the control box that is mounted on the bulkhead between the pilot's heads. Lots of little details out there, I'll get 'em as best I can and will probably just have to use a bit of guestimation on the rest. John Edited August 22, 2009 by 11bee Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Six Gun Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 (edited) Hi GT,I think I got the general layout ok. I've fabricated a couple of pretty decent KY-58's from resin and scrap PE. It's all the other little details that I am trying to get a handle on. On the pics of you with 17191, I'm trying to figure out how to replicate the electrical wiring that seems to be coming down the side of the KY-58. It also looks like there is a mounting bracket for another KY-58 outboard of the one that is currently installed. In a picture of another AH-6C, there are two KY-58's mounted facing outwards (left), that is why I am assuming that there may be a bracket in that position. Also, by blowing up those pictures, I have been able to scratch build the control box that is mounted on the bulkhead between the pilot's heads. Lots of little details out there, I'll get 'em as best I can and will probably just have to use a bit of guestimation on the rest. John Hello everybody, GT and Ray got me onto this site, as I have several pictures from the "Old days". I'll get them to Ray as soon as I can find them. I am honored that you are preserving this little piece of history, a lot of guys gave their lives for this unit to exist and we owe it to them to "get it right". I was a member of the unit (B Co Six-Guns) from 1980 till 1991, so I witnessed a few of the evolutions of this aircraft. To explain the mismash of airplane mods, you have to understand the reason for the establishment of this unit and the modifications of these aircraft. Following the failure at Desert One, the US Army was tasked to effect the rescue of hostages in Tehran, Iran. These aircraft were all designed to be expendable. Especially, the Guns (AH-6C), which is why we had the old stuff. Army didn't want to waste money throwing away perfectly good "new" airplanes. Of course, we the pilots were easily expendable/replaceable! Funny, I didn't figure that out for 20 years! ;) The plan was to disband the unit, dispose of the airplanes, then back to the "Green" Army. After the hostages were released upon Ronald Reagans election, we stood down for a while, then a very rare thing happened. Someone smart in the Army, figured out they had developed a revolutionary capability and wisely decided to keep the unit, designated it TF160 and it just grew from there. We lived in those garages you see in some of the pictures, folding and storing the A/C to avoid overflight detection. There were 9 AH-6 Pilots for 6 AH's, in one 15'x15' room, each with a wooden footlocker. That was it. Today's 160th is huge. The sighting system was a grease pencil mark on the windscreen, about the size of a quarter, so you could see the smudge through the full face plate NVG's AN/PVS-5's. Pretty soon, we discarded that, because we shot so much, it just got to be 2nd nature, like shootin birds. We shot 80% of the total FORSCOM allocation of 2.75" FFAR (Rockets) one year out of 6 airplanes. That's a lot a shootin! You guys are really making me scratch the ol noggin to remember what all that stuff was. GT is correct, the KY-28's were mounted on the top of the black sheet metal box on the rear cabin floor. The wires you see are to the remotely mounted KY-28 Control Heads, mounted on the center column between the Pilot and Co-Pilot near the top of the column. The sheetmetal box itself was a containment for the navigation computer, which was a Litton 211 Omega/VLF. The square box on the tailboom everyone is asking about is the Omega/VLF antennae. None of which ever worked very well (due to a small ground plane and P-Stat from exhaust gas flow) and were routinely removed to save weight. The 211 control head was located in the center pedestal between the pilots on the left side of the pedestal. The other box on the tail boom is for the 2 aft facing antennaes for the AN/APR-39/A Radar Warning Receiver aft of the 211 brick. The other 2 APR 39 antennaes are on the front of the aircraft, in a small v shaped box on the nose. Each of the four APR39 antennae were mounted in order to provide overlap, therby providing 360 deg of coverage. It was quite the puckering moment when that thing went off in the Gulf! The two FM "Whip" antennaes on the tailboom did not fold, but were bungie corded up, for transport. The blade rack was made of 1/2" plywood, and had a short bungie cord affixed for each blade location. The rack fit over the tailboom with a strap that captured the jacking point to keep it fixed in place. As the blades were folded backwards and placed into the rack, you slipped the bungie over a screw-eye to keep it in place. BTW, these aircraft could be folded and moved within about 2 minutes of landing. Conversely, they could be unfolded, armed and flown in under 2 minutes. That was always a race, to see who could get their aircraft in the air the quickest. I always beat GT, BTW The AH-6C was a modified OH-6B Cayuse, of 6 aircraft, most of which were remnants of the Army's Flight Demonstration Team, the "Silver Eagles". The Army did away with the team, after selecting the OH-58A as the OH-6 replacement. They used the excuse of funding, when, in fact, the 58 could never perform any of the maneuvers without falling out of the sky. Sad moment when the 6 was discarded. There is a small tab, just forward of the T/R Gearbox which served as an attaching point for the smoke grenades used during their performances. The B was outfitted with a C-18 engine. When the Mod to the C was performed, the engine was upgraded to an Allison C-20b, and the transmission was replaced with that of a Hughes 369C. Basically, turning the airplane into a Mil version of the Hughes 500C (airframe designaiton 369C). As GT said, The MH-6 was a straight conversion of civilian-off-the-shelf Hughes 500D's (Airframe Model 369D). The same airframe, bolstered, with a 5 bladed rotor system and an Allison C-20B engine and upgraded transmission. The rotor system had a newer version of dampers and connecting linkage and was much more reliable and much smoother, capable of higher gross weights. After several years, the AH-6C's were replaced by new AH-6F's. Converted Civilian versions of the H500D and E engined with the Allison C20B engine. I was the project officer tasked with the conversion design and production of the first F model. These were the models used in Operation "Prime Chance" which resulted in the engagement of the Iran Ajr, a converted LST, caught laying mines in the Persian Gulf. This was the first NVG Combat engagement, the first Army engagement of a vessel using NVG's. These were also the models used in Desert Storm. We designed a lower profile instrument panel and assembly, due to our visibility requirements for shooting, vs the MH pilots wanting a more vertically oriented panel, thereby allowing greater visibility forward when landing on tricky places, like ships bridgewings and rooftops. The F's were replaced by AH-6J's, I believe the current model, shortly after I left the unit. The J is a standardized cockpit and airframe, across A & B Company, engined with the Allison C30. There were multiple upgrades to the F, almost all new COTS avionics and flight instruments and newer MILPSEC Avionics, including the KING KNS660 NAV system, newer KY-58's and SATCOM Capable radios. ALmost too many to name. The EH-6 that everyone is seeking was nothing special (of course, nothing is "Special" unless it has guns on it!), it just had more radios (SATCOM) and a FLIR installed (around 81-82, I believe) I probably have pictures of it somewhere. If there ever was any unit called "SeaSpray", it did not fly any of these TF aircraft models. Hope this helps. GT can correct any of my recollections, as I'm sure I am not 100% on all of it. I'll try to get the pictures to Ray, when I find them. If anyone has any questions feel free to ask. I'll answer what I can. Doug Edited September 4, 2009 by Six Gun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Six Gun Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Hi GT,I think I got the general layout ok. I've fabricated a couple of pretty decent KY-58's from resin and scrap PE. It's all the other little details that I am trying to get a handle on. On the pics of you with 17191, I'm trying to figure out how to replicate the electrical wiring that seems to be coming down the side of the KY-58. It also looks like there is a mounting bracket for another KY-58 outboard of the one that is currently installed. In a picture of another AH-6C, there are two KY-58's mounted facing outwards (left), that is why I am assuming that there may be a bracket in that position. Also, by blowing up those pictures, I have been able to scratch build the control box that is mounted on the bulkhead between the pilot's heads. Lots of little details out there, I'll get 'em as best I can and will probably just have to use a bit of guestimation on the rest. John John , This is a link to a pic of the KY-28 Remoted Control Head, 2 of which were mounted in that location and a real pain in the butt. http://jproc.ca/crypto/ky28.html Doug Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rotorwash Posted September 4, 2009 Author Share Posted September 4, 2009 John , This is a link to a pic of the KY-28 Remoted Control Head, 2 of which were mounted in that location and a real pain in the butt. http://jproc.ca/crypto/ky28.html Doug Doug, Thanks so much for the info! I know it is very appreciated. Ray Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Six Gun Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 "Underpowered" is not entirely accurate. The two AH-6N's had the 650shp T703 engine installed, same as the J model. The airframes were essentially 500MD's, however, and still had the 272shp transmission rating. The 160th was desperate for any increase in performance, and MD sold them on the idea that the NOTAR was not only stealthy, but more efficient. The NOTAR was, of course, a retrofit to the 369/500 series, however, and was not optimized. Flight testing reveled that, in some flight conditions, there was between a 1 and 4% INCREASE in power required over the standard tail rotor. The 160th, not wanting ANY decrease in performance (however small) lost interest in the project.Here's a pic of one of the two converted AH-6N's This airframe later became the MELB prototype, and was written off when it crashed while performing height/velocity testing at Alamosa, CO Actually, IMR The reason it was not adopted was due to the instability of the NOTAR system itself. We would have loved it from a stealth/safety standpoint. It couldn't maintain yaw control sufficiently when firing the mini-gun. The XM134 exerts a tremendous amount of thrust on the airplane. The trigger had 2 detents, Low rate-2000/rounds/minute and High rate-4000rounds a minute. We invariably used the High rate, due to wierd vibrations being transmitted at the low rate. The NOTAR also had yaw stability and power problems reacting to the sudden power applications of some of the more extreme landing maneuvers the slicks used. Doug NSDQ SGDM Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 John , This is a link to a pic of the KY-28 Remoted Control Head, 2 of which were mounted in that location and a real pain in the butt. http://jproc.ca/crypto/ky28.html Doug Hi Doug, Thanks for all of that info. Between you and GT, I can't believe that so much info has come out on early Littlebirds in the last few months. Until you guys posted, there was next to nothing out there on these unique helicopters. That link to the KY-28 is a huge help, I just wish I saw this a bit sooner. If you look at the pix of my ongoing AH-6C build, you may notice that the remote control heads and the KY-28 boxes that I scratch built are off "a bit". Don't slag my efforts too much, I did the best I could based on staring at zoomed-in versions of GT's pictures until my eyes were about to glaze over! If you see any other errors or ommisions on my build, please feel free to critique. I know I included three control heads on my model but in one of GT's pictures, it showed an AH-6 with three KY-28's so I figured that there would be three control heads as well. If you have any pictures that you wish to share, please feel free to post them. Although if you do, I have a strange feeling that it will be just after I complete my model and I will then find out that half of what I built is competely inaccurate Oh well, that is part of the fun of modeling. Thanks again for taking the time to provide all of this info. Also - thank you VERY much for your service. Regards, John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Loach Driver Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Doug, Welcome to the ARC Forum. It is amazing that there are now two founding members of the 160th contributing to this forum. Your two posts on this thread alone have added a lot of information about the AH-6C and are very welcome. If you have photos of the EH-6B, please post them and just sit back and see everyone's reaction. A lot of people will go nuts and will be lining up to buy you a beer in thanks! As far as I know, there are no photos of the EH-6B available on the net or in any publications so they will be very interesting. Graham, Doug and Ray, thanks for everything posted on this thread so far and if you have more to share, please keep it coming. LD. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 (edited) The other box on the tail boom is for the 2 aft facing antennaes for the AN/APR-39/A Radar Warning Receiver aft of the 211 brick. The other 2 APR 39 antennaes are on the front of the aircraft, in a small v shaped box on the nose. Each of the four APR39 antennae were mounted in order to provide overlap, therby providing 360 deg of coverage. It was quite the puckering moment when that thing went off in the Gulf! The EH-6 that everyone is seeking was nothing special (of course, nothing is "Special" unless it has guns on it!), it just had more radios (SATCOM) and a FLIR installed (around 81-82, I believe) I probably have pictures of it somewhere. If there ever was any unit called "SeaSpray", it did not fly any of these TF aircraft models. Doug Hi Doug, Lots of great information in your initial post. Not sure if you can add anything to the following questions or not: I always thought the AH-6C's flew in Prime Chance. Didn't know that the Prime Chance Littlebirds were F models. Did the C's ever deploy over there or were they mostly just prototype Littlebirds to prove the concept before going to the F models? Would the AH-6C's have ever been fitted with the seat armor that was used on the Vietnam-era Loaches? Where was the display for the APR39's mounted in the cockpit? The picture of the instrument panel that I got through that Freedom of Information Act request doesn't show a typical APR display (although there are a couple of unknown instruments mounted above that panel that aren't present on regular OH-6's). If there ever was a unit called "SeaSpray" would you have any info on what type of OH-6 / MD500's they flew? Most of the info I have found out there just states that "modified" MD500's were used. Pics of the ever-elusive EH-6 would be really interesting. I never knew that FLIR's were in service that early. On a semi-related note, I am pondering adding a crew figure to my AH-6C model. The crew that came with the original OH-6A kit are all in Vietnam-era flight gear but it looks like it was pretty similar to what was worn in the early 80's. The only thing I would have to add would be the survival vest. I am curious though on how the PVS-5's were worn? The infantry version had a strap setup that was worn under the helmet. Is that the same type rig that was worn by flight crew or did you have the straps or a mounting bracket outside of helmet? On a side comment, you guys get huge points for flying with those things. I nearly messed myself up more than once wearing them in the woods, can't imagine how you managed to fly with those beasts. Life got much better when we got the single tube PVS-7's. If any of these questions touch on sensitive info, then feel free to ignore them. Regards, John Edited September 6, 2009 by 11bee Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rotorwash Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share Posted September 8, 2009 AH-6F pics courtesy of Doug (Six Gun) Ray Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DPD1 Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Wow, checkout the boat they're using... Must be an interesting story behind that. Dave www.TheNorthSpin.com Dedicated to Aircraft Flight Test for the Aviation Enthusiast Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JakubJakepilot Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Great pics of AH-6Fs. So, were AH-6Fs used in Gulf war ? And other versions ? Also, what is the best start for modellers in all the popular scales ? Maybe we (I can do that) should make a table of versions and what needs to modify on kits ... Btw, what is on the other side of the AH-6F if it has the 7-shot LAU on the right ? Thanks Jakub Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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