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Spitfires in Battle of Britain


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Deeply impressed by the movie <Dark Blue World>(actually my fifth time watching it last weekend).

I really want to make a 1/48 Spitfire flown by those brave Czechoslovakian pilots but after a rough search I got almost nothing.

(It seems most famous Czechoslovakian pilots flew Hurricane.)

Any info or decals available for Czechoslovakian pilot's Spitfires during BoB?

Thanks a lot in advance!

Cheers,

Yufei

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There were only three Czech fighter squadrons in the RAF, 310 and 312 formed at Duxford on Hurricanes during the BoB and 313 on Spits at Catterick in 1941. Plenty of East European names listed as flying with various other RAF or AuxAF squadrons but short of checking each one by name to see whether they were Poles or Czechs and when they served, and then cross-referencing the sqns to see which were flying Spitfires during the BoB there is no way to answer your question.

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That's the problem with "rough searches"... trying to find any information on Squadrons from Czeck pilots does have it's problems (more so than 315 flown by the Polish among the other Sqds.)... anyway, saving the long story, hope this helps:

http://www.spitfiresite.com/photos/histori...hoslovakia.html

http://www.internationalschoolhistory.net/...ry/czsk_raf.htm

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/52/4

As for the question on decals - find yourself a specific subject. Many, MANY European nations that flew for the RAF lacked the national insignia until mid/late war. Thank you Polish Sqdns. Anyway... once you find yourself a subject that you want to do, getting the exact markings can be either painted on, or using various "scrap" decals. There aren't very many Czech decals out there, but there are some - all depending on what you want to do.

Mark.

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Not Battle of Britain, but there are:

http://www.hannants.co.uk/search/?FULL=MPD48502

with machines flown by Frantisek Perina, Frantisek Dolezal and Frantisek Fajtl;

and http://www.hannants.co.uk/search/?FULL=AMD48682

with AR501/NN:D of 310 Sqn.

Some famous names there, I'm pondering doing Fajtl's as I have decals for both that Spit and his La-5.

And I'm a fan of DBW as well - excellent film on many levels, for me the most poignant scene is the shadow of the hangar door closing over the Czech roundel, or is it where the funeral with full military honours is contrasted with the body being wheeled out on the "amnesty cart"? ...

HTH

Mike (member of IPMS(UK) Czech & Slovak AF SIG and Czechoslovak AF fan)

Edited by MikeC
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There were only three Czech fighter squadrons in the RAF, 310 and 312 formed at Duxford on Hurricanes during the BoB and 313 on Spits at Catterick in 1941. Plenty of East European names listed as flying with various other RAF or AuxAF squadrons but short of checking each one by name to see whether they were Poles or Czechs and when they served, and then cross-referencing the sqns to see which were flying Spitfires during the BoB there is no way to answer your question.

If you excuse me, there were CZECHOSLOVAK squadrons! Being in UK you should really know this (I can give little break on this side of the pond).

First commander of 312Sq (DU-) was Slovak, Jan Ambrus, another successful pilot, Otto Smik, was Slovak too.

And besides, Czechoslovakia (former), and Poland, are NOT Eastern European countries but belong geographically (and historically) to Central Europe.

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If you excuse me, there were CZECHOSLOVAK squadrons! Being in UK you should really know this (I can give little break on this side of the pond).

First commander of 312Sq (DU-) was Slovak, Jan Ambrus, another successful pilot, Otto Smik, was Slovak too.

And besides, Czechoslovakia (former), and Poland, are NOT Eastern European countries but belong geographically (and historically) to Central Europe.

Oh dear....

By saying "Czech squadrons", I don't think GPaulC meant to insult or exclude Slovak pilots. Everyone knows that during wartime they were "Czechoslovak squadrons", but in common usage this was shortened to "Czech". I can see how this might upset Slovaks, but it was not deliberate I'm sure.

As for being Eastern European or Central European, that's a matter for interpretation. I know in my case, both my parents are Polish and I've always considered that area as Eastern Europe. I think again, in common usage most people think of it as Eastern Europe, if they think about about it at all.

I hope that didn't sound harsh, not meant to.

Cheers,

Richard

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I meant no offense, and am happy to apologise for any given by my loose use of English. However I would like to point out that regardless of who may actually have been serving in them (and let's face it most if not all of the ground crew would have been British, not Czech or Slovak) the 'foriegn' squadrons were all officially named as No 3xx, honorific if any, Squadron (descriptor). So for example 307 'City of Lvov' Squadron (Polish). All the Czechoslovakian squadrons I can find whether flying with Fighter, Bomber or Coastal Command were named 3xx Squadron (Czech). You may not like it but that is how it was.

As for Eastern Europe, to my generation anything that was east of the Iron Curtain was (and to most still is) Eastern Europe. To my grandparents generation it was anything east of Germany in the north, the Danube in the centre and anything east and north of Venice in the south. The 'Central European Powers' were generally recognised as Germany, Austro-Hungary and Italy until 1919. Sorry if Czechoslovakia (or nowadays the Czech Republic and Slovakia) does not fit comfortably into any of those generalisations but again that is how it is. How a people/nation see themselves often depends upon their own history and they will choose the labels that best support that self image. That does not mean that the rest of the world see them in the same way.

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Hello,

During BOB fly four czechoslovak´s pilots in 19.Sq

P/O František Doležal , later Commander of Czechoslovak Wing,

Sgt. Stanislav Plzák, MIA 7.8.1941

P/O František Hradil, KIA 5.11 1940, him shoot down Hpt. Rolf Pingel, shoot down in Spitfire Mk.I P7525, many photo him w/Spitfire Mk.IIa P7434 (QV-I)

Sgt.František Marek

any flight with Spitfire Mk.Ib(Canon Spitfire) has had S/Q R.Hess, Commander of 310.Sq

This is all CZE pilots, who flies with Spitfire during BOB

Sorry for my english, is very poor

Edited by Rostislav Axmann
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Oh dear....

By saying "Czech squadrons", I don't think GPaulC meant to insult or exclude Slovak pilots. Everyone knows that during wartime they were "Czechoslovak squadrons", but in common usage this was shortened to "Czech". I can see how this might upset Slovaks, but it was not deliberate I'm sure.

As for being Eastern European or Central European, that's a matter for interpretation. I know in my case, both my parents are Polish and I've always considered that area as Eastern Europe. I think again, in common usage most people think of it as Eastern Europe, if they think about about it at all.

I hope that didn't sound harsh, not meant to.

Cheers,

Richard

Richard,

It's not what you or anybody else think or interpret, there are the facts. Do yourself a favor and check some geography sources about C.E. and E.E.

And ask your parents too. It's kind of sad that you only considered Poland as E.E. country (you prefer area). Also rather than common usage I'd call it ignorance and even disrespect.

Mario

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Richard,

It's not what you or anybody else think or interpret, there are the facts. Do yourself a favor and check some geography sources about C.E. and E.E.

And ask your parents too. It's kind of sad that you only considered Poland as E.E. country (you prefer area). Also rather than common usage I'd call it ignorance and even disrespect.

Mario

Easy Mario...this IS open to interpretation, as what is East of me is not necessarily East of you, or Jim Bob down the road.  I also consider anything W of Germany as Eastern Europe, as do most people of my generation.  Anything that was a part of the Iron Curtain is Eastern Europe to me, except for East Germany, as it has been reunited.  There's no ignorance or disrespect going on, other than your lambasting a fellow for his opinions.  I hold opinions that I am sure differ greatly from yours on a number of things, not the least of which is your opinions of chipping on japanese aircraft.  However, you are entitled to your opinion, just as we are entitled to our's.

Cheers,

Alex

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To drag this back onto topic ...

My references suggest the following fighter squadrons had at least one Czechoslovak pilot posted to them at some stage, not necessarily the BoB: 1, 3, 17, 19, 23, 25, 32, 41, 43, 46, 54, 56, 64, 65, 66, 68, 72, 73, 81, 85, 87, 96, 111, 118, 122, 124, 125, 127, 129, 131, 145, 151, 167, 182, 198, 222, 234, 238, 242, 245, 247, 249, 253, 255, 257, 258, 303 (Polish), 306 (Polish), 307 (Polish), 315 (Polish), 317 (Polish),425 (RAAF), 501, 504, 600, 601, 602, 605, 607, 610, 611, 615. In fact, the top-scoring Czechoslovak ace, Josef Frantisek, flew with 303 (Polish). (Source - "Czechs in the RAF in Focus", Zdenek Hurt (pub Red Kite).)

Pardon my confusion, but were the RAF units not correctly termed "Czech" squadrons during WWII? Czechoslovakia ceased to exist "for the duration" in March 1939, unless all my history sources are wrong. Slovakia fought on the Axis side until the uprising of August 1944, although many Slovaks went with the Czechs and fought with the French then the RAF and even the Soviets. It's the history and the wide variety of aircraft types and markings that make Czech and Slovak WW2 history so fascinating in modelling terms.

Right, now I'm off to carry on with the S-199 I'm building at the moment.

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Hello,

During BOB fly four czechoslovak´s pilots in 19.Sq

P/O František Doležal , later Commander of Czechoslovak Wing,

Sgt. Stanislav Plzák, MIA 7.8.1941

P/O František Hradil, KIA 5.11 1940, him shoot down Hpt. Rolf Pingel, shoot down in Spitfire Mk.I P7525, many photo him w/Spitfire Mk.IIa P7434 (QV-I)

Sgt.František Marek

any flight with Spitfire Mk.Ib(Canon Spitfire) has had S/Q R.Hess, Commander of 310.Sq

This is all CZE pilots, who flies with Spitfire during BOB

Sorry for my english, is very poor

Hi Rostislav,

That is useful information, many thanks.

As for your English, don't worry about it, it's better than my Czech!

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Easy Mario...this IS open to interpretation, as what is East of me is not necessarily East of you, or Jim Bob down the road.  I also consider anything W of Germany as Eastern Europe, as do most people of my generation.  Anything that was a part of the Iron Curtain is Eastern Europe to me, except for East Germany, as it has been reunited.  There's no ignorance or disrespect going on, other than your lambasting a fellow for his opinions.  I hold opinions that I am sure differ greatly from yours on a number of things, not the least of which is your opinions of chipping on japanese aircraft.  However, you are entitled to your opinion, just as we are entitled to our's.

Cheers,

Alex

Alex,

Again, this is not a matter of opinions but facts. Opinions are debatable, facts are not. Do you have opinions about solar system, Indian Ocean or history of the USA? Or is it open to "interpretations"?

And as far as my "opinions" of chipping on japanese aircraft" you need to read them carefully, all is based on facts. Yet, people continue beating the heck out those poor airplanes. Do you find better word than ignorance? Of course I don't deny yours, or anybody else's, right to an opinion.

Cheers,

Mario

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Alex,

Again, this is not a matter of opinions but facts. Opinions are debatable, facts are not. Do you have opinions about solar system, Indian Ocean or history of the USA? Or is it open to "interpretations"?

And as far as my "opinions" of chipping on japanese aircraft" you need to read them carefully, all is based on facts. Yet, people continue beating the heck out those poor airplanes. Do you find better word than ignorance? Of course I don't deny yours, or anybody else's, right to an opinion.

Cheers,

Mario

:whistle:   This is one pig I'm not gonna mud wrestle.

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Do you find better word than ignorance? Of course I don't deny yours, or anybody else's, right to an opinion.

I think you did just that.

I'm very proud of my Polish heritage and the lives and example my parents provided. The fact that my parents lived five kilometers from the Soviet border in 1939 does place them pretty much in Eastern Europe, as my father tells me anyway. He doesn't seem as worried about labels. I agree that since the fall of communism, the cultural and political boundaries are being reconsidered. For the best examination of this issue read Europe: East and West by Norman Davies. As you can see also from the opinions expressed by others here, it is very much open to interpretation and opinion...as I hope the history of the United States is, and interpretation of data regarding the solar system. Simply look up Eastern Europe on Google or in any history of Europe.

I was hoping to gently explain with no disrespect intended, and I believe that GPaulC did the same. The only disrespect I see is in the responses provided by you here. You don't know me, or my background, or the research I've conducted for a living dealing with, yes, Eastern European history. Your tone is offensive.

Sorry folks for the distraction from a very interesting question about Czechoslovak pilots.

Cheers,

Richard

Edited by anotherP51nut
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There were almost 90 aircrew from Czechoslovakia who flew in the Royal Air Force during the Battle of Britain, a list of them can be found on the Roll of Honour of all the aircrew who took part at

http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940.roll.html these names are among over 2.930 B of B aircrew who are all recorded on the Sir Christopher Foxley-Norris Wall at the National Battle of Britain Memorial at Capel le Ferne, Folkestone, Kent.

Robin.

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