1/48 Eduard MIG-21 MF Bis SMT

[pollie]

I've never seen a photo of any SMT with anything but a red star on it, and even then, they didn't last very long in service before being converted to essentially 'bis' status.

I think the only bis feature is the spine, rest of the airframe is SM (so basically MF).

Even if Syria operated them, how would one know? I think it takes a VERY close look to see the difference between a converted SMT and a bis. Or stick your head in the nosegear bay and check the plate :)

[Booga]

Are there photographs illustrating what the Osprey says ? Do they really mean SMT or rather ST (SMT with a bis spine) ?

Laurent, I don't think the "ST" designator really exists, they are called SMT whatever the spine. It doesn't appear in Russian sources, I have seen an official Russian MoD arms control declaration where an SMT with Bis spine photo is captioned as SMT. Besides, simply dropping the middle "M" (for "modified") would not make sense. The T stands for "Toplivnyi" - extra fuel.

[Laurent]

I think it takes a VERY close look to see the difference between a converted SMT and a bis

What about the concentric panel lines of the intake ring ?

The distance between the concentric panel line and the edge of the lip is big on PF/PFS/PFM/S/R/M/SM/MF/SMTs.

PF (Hunavia)

MF (Hunavia)

The distance is small on the bis.

bis (Hunavia)

So the so-called MiG-21ST in Riga really isn't a MiG-21bis even though it has a bis spine.

Edited February 26, 2011 by Laurent

[Laurent]

Laurent, I don't think the "ST" designator really exists, they are called SMT whatever the spine. It doesn't appear in Russian sources, I have seen an official Russian MoD arms control declaration where an SMT with Bis spine photo is captioned as SMT. Besides, simply dropping the middle "M" (for "modified") would not make sense. The T stands for "Toplivnyi" - extra fuel.

It's possible that the ST designation isn't official but since a modified SMT can be distinguished from a real bis or from an SMT, using a specific (but unofficial) designation is useful. Perhaps they removed the M because SMMT sounded silly ?

Did someone have the occasion of checking the ID plate of the Riga's "ST" ?

Edited February 26, 2011 by Laurent

[Jennings]

Not necessarily germain to the topic at hand, but since someone uploaded this GORGEOUS photo of a Czech MF, I thought I'd take the opportunity to "back date" the photo a bit to get rid of the distractions. My "after" version without the German F-4 and the civilian-clad guy standing on the wing (and the ugly light blue marking on the pavement) could put it in the Cold War days at České Budějovice sometime in the 1970s

J

[pollie]

Not necessarily germain to the topic at hand, but since someone uploaded this GORGEOUS photo of a Czech MF, I thought I'd take the opportunity to "back date" the photo a bit to get rid of the distractions. My "after" version without the German F-4 and the civilian-clad guy standing on the wing (and the ugly light blue marking on the pavement) could put it in the Cold War days at České Budějovice sometime in the 1970s

J

Unfortunately it is Leeuwarden air base Netherlands, exactly one day before my 24th birthday :-) I remember, because I was there too (2 July 1994).

[pollie]

Did someone have the occasion of checking the ID plate of the Riga's "ST" ?

Yes, but the type is not on the ID plate. It only shows factory number (and sometimes mfd, depending on type).

[pollie]

What about the concentric panel lines of the intake ring ?

Did you note the overspray on the first photo you posted, that of the PF? That would make it difficult too. I still think you have to get relatively close to see the difference.

[Booga]

It's possible that the ST designation isn't official but since a modified SMT can be distinguished from a real bis or from an SMT

Then the MiG-21SMB designation is used rather than ST. It also seems that most SMTs were actually built with the Bis spine when it became available in 1972.

[Jennings]

Unfortunately it is Leeuwarden air base Netherlands...

Well, you know Americans think all you Europeans look alike anyway

[Laurent]

Then the MiG-21SMB designation is used rather than ST.

I wish I read Russian : http://www.forumavia.ru/forum/4/1/38376438...076241_15.shtml . All I can say is that I read "Миг-21СТ" и "Миг-21СМб" which suggests that no designation is better than the other... but that's just a quote on a specific post of course.

It also seems that most SMTs were actually built with the Bis spine when it became available in 1972.

I remember reading that the switch from SMT spine to the bis spine was made because if the fuel was fully used in the SMT, the CoG shift made the plane difficult to fly for unexperienced pilots. Do you mean that the spine fix was implemented during production and that SMTs can have completely different physionomy ?

[Booga]

I wish I read Russian : http://www.forumavia.ru/forum/4/1/38376438...076241_15.shtml . All I can say is that I read "Миг-21СТ" и "Миг-21СМб" which suggests that no designation is better than the other... but that's just a quote on a specific post of course.

The guy you quote is asking what is the correct designation. He's active on every Russian aviation forum, IIRR Gordon is his main source for the MiG-21, hence his question.

I remember reading that the switch from SMT spine to the bis spine was made because if the fuel was fully used in the SMT, the CoG shift made the plane difficult to fly for unexperienced pilots. Do you mean that the spine fix was implemented during production and that SMTs can have completely different physionomy ?

Well I have no definitive answer as it is debated. Some VVS old-timers remember that the modification was done on the spot by maintenance crews using kits delivered from the factories, others claim that starting from a certain batch the new SMT rolled off the production line with the smaller spine. What is certain is that the big-spine SMT didn't handle well, not only because of CG shift but also because the big spine would blank out the rudder at much lower AoA than on other versions. Even the experienced pilots at the Kubinka demonstration regiment had a hard time flying aerobatics on the MiG-21MT and they didn't keep them very long.

[pollie]

Then the MiG-21SMB designation is used rather than ST. It also seems that most SMTs were actually built with the Bis spine when it became available in 1972.

Is there any proof for that, because I find that hard to believe?! Beginning in (roughly) February 1971, a total of 281 SMTs were build. A few built with a bis spine: possible yes, but most SMTs built with a bis spine: I don't believe that until I see some kind of proof.

[Booga]

Is there any proof for that, because I find that hard to believe?! Beginning in (roughly) February 1971, a total of 281 SMTs were build. A few built with a bis spine: possible yes, but most SMTs built with a bis spine: I don't believe that until I see some kind of proof.

As I wrote just above, I have no proof, only conflicting info.

[Jennings]

Don't get too pedantic about what color to paint your MiG-21 wheel wells & gear doors...

[ijozic]

Is there any proof for that, because I find that hard to believe?! Beginning in (roughly) February 1971, a total of 281 SMTs were build. A few built with a bis spine: possible yes, but most SMTs built with a bis spine: I don't believe that until I see some kind of proof.

Well, Gordon's MiG-21 book specifies that the MiG-21SMTs were modified to have bis spines because of the drastic aircraft performance hits the big spines caused and they were designated MiG-21ST (and that two examples are preserved in Latvia, so that airplane in Riga is this model which would explain different front intake edge than the bis). So, the question is whether this was done afterwards or still during the production of the SMT because the book doesn't mention any years regarding the ST version.

[Laurent]

Some VVS old-timers remember that the modification was done on the spot by maintenance crews using kits delivered from the factories, others claim that starting from a certain batch the new SMT rolled off the production line with the smaller spine.

I have difficulties imagining VVS engineers fiddling with the number and size of fuel tanks but why not.

[Libor H]

Let's just hope that the MiG-21 sells like gangbusters and then we can hope for something more beyond the three we're getting. Personally, I'm going to start out hoping that it does well enough to keep them interested in releasing the bis down the line, since it's going to require a lot of new tooling.

Anything new and Soviet/Russian would be welcome. Floggers, updated Fulcrum, etc. But for now, let's just celebrate the success of the MiG-21, and hope that it does really well for them. We need 1st and 2nd gen MiG-21s as well!

Thanks for quoting our thoughts!

Exactly guys, let's just celebrate this piece of jewel for now! It's been hard few years since we started with MiG project, and as we're hitting that important milestone, there's nothing more in our minds that the current MiG-21MF. Sure there'll be more, sure they'll come, but please be patient and enjoy the current kit as much as you can!

[Libor H]

Not necessarily germain to the topic at hand, but since someone uploaded this GORGEOUS photo of a Czech MF, I thought I'd take the opportunity to "back date" the photo a bit to get rid of the distractions. My "after" version without the German F-4 and the civilian-clad guy standing on the wing (and the ugly light blue marking on the pavement) could put it in the Cold War days at České Budějovice sometime in the 1970s

J

Great PS work Jennings!

[Bonehammer73]

Thanks for quoting our thoughts!

Exactly guys, let's just celebrate this piece of jewel for now! It's been hard few years since we started with MiG project, and as we're hitting that important milestone, there's nothing more in our minds that the current MiG-21MF. Sure there'll be more, sure they'll come, but please be patient and enjoy the current kit as much as you can!

ITA - I was thinking how Eduard has managed to create unprecedented levels of anticipation with this kit - the CAD sneak peeks, the mold pictures, the Facebook updates, etc. Modelling business has come a long way since 'preview' meant a post stamp-sized boxart in the newest catalog, and it's ironic that companies from former 'real socialist' countries are the quickest to take advantage of the newest technologies and marketing opportunites. In the past, there would have been a stronger focus on ease of production versus accuracy or builder-friendliness, and little thought paid to advertising or packaging.

Double the irony as the current subject of our interest is an icon of said real socialism. So: no Communism, no Eduard MiG-21 - no end of Communism, no Eduard MiG-21....

Edited February 27, 2011 by Bonehammer73

[Booga]

I have difficulties imagining VVS engineers fiddling with the number and size of fuel tanks

Me too, but probably for other reasons. No fiddling involved, it's a saddle tank, dismounting a 900 l. one to replace it with a 530 l. one is not a big deal when you can remove engines. All of this could be done at T.E.Ch. (regimental maintenance shop) level, and the average Soviet aircraft engineer is an officer or warrant officer with higher technical education, not to be confused with the 18-yeat old conscript from deep Central Asia who refuelled the aircraft and couldn't speak a word of Russian.

But that's not how aircraft modifications happened, even mundane ones. Usually, when a change was introduced on an aircraft it first began on the production line, not necessarily at the start of a new batch, and a "bulletin" was issued, to have the change retrofitted to earlier aircraft during major overhaul at the factory or in secondary aircraft repair plants. That was at least in theory. So in the case of the SMT there might have been a mix of bulletin retrofit and factory builds. Some sources indicate a/c no. 500АА07 as the first one production-fitted with the 530 l. tank

The official designation for the small-tank SMT was Type 50Bis, as opposed to Type 50 for the big-spine version.

[pollie]

Some sources indicate a/c no. 500АА07 as the first one production-fitted with the 530 l. tank

AA07 means 7th aircraft in the 11th batch (so 1107). But 2120 from Riga still has the big tank, so I think your sources are incorrect. If it happened at all, I think it was done in the last few batches. But I'd like to see some proof first.......

[Andre]

Well, you know Americans think all you Europeans look alike anyway :)

Thin?

Anyway, great PS work, Jennings... although it has the side effect of me now questioning any and all photo I come across!

Cheers,

Andre

[Booga]

AA07 means 7th aircraft in the 11th batch (so 1107). But 2120 from Riga still has the big tank, so I think your sources are incorrect. If it happened at all, I think it was done in the last few batches. But I'd like to see some proof first.......

Then AA07 must be wrong, still if you read Russian I recommend this thread

OTOH airwar.ru here gives MM07 as the first small-spine SMT. According to the thread above, bort 10 at Riga (fatback SMT 50023100) was delivered on 24 Jan 1972. The other two other small-spine SMTs (50027021 and 50029084) rolled off on 27 March and 14 April respectively. So, if it' any indication, the change could have occurred between January and March 72.

[Laurent]

The other two other small-spine SMTs (50027021 and 50029084) rolled off on 27 March and 14 April respectively. So, if it' any indication, the change could have occurred between January and March 72.

It reminds me of the PFS development. Correct me if I wrong but the PFS started with single-piece canopy, small chord fin and finished with two-pieces canopy, long chord fin. Late PFSs were externally almost undistinguishable from PFMs. Here, late SMTs (type 50 bis) were externally almost undistinguishable from bises. It seems logic to me that the small spine SMTs were built that way, not retrofitted with smaller tanks. ST and SMB would have been unofficial designations used to distinguish the planes for maintenance matters perhaps.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Laurent