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1/48 Eduard MIG-21 MF Bis SMT


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If it's written in capital letters, perhaps someone thinks BIS is an acronym ?

I will comment on this as on Facebook:

Some of our Finnish friends have drawn our attention to this in the beginning of this project. Their point was that Russian manuals for these machines mention "BIS" not "bis", so we kinda sticked to that.

We do know and understand the origins of this word, which actually means "second" in Italian language. From what I can see on the forums and www generally, modelers tend to use both versions. We picked BIS;)

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Sorry guys for small photos on Eduard Blog. Our intention is to implement whole gallery system, which will allow us to show pictures in bigger sizes (something like on FB but bigger). We will be installing this plugin shortly for your convenience.

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I admit I am very disappointed with the lack of a new fuselage. That said, it may be possible to convert the kit's MF profile to the bis profile by adding some subtle "circular mass" with some sheet styrene and putty to the nose forward of the cooling vent. Probably difficult and risky, but definitely possible. What do you think?

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I admit I am very disappointed with the lack of a new fuselage. That said, it may be possible to convert the kit's MF profile to the bis profile by adding some subtle "circular mass" with some sheet styrene and putty to the nose forward of the cooling vent. Probably difficult and risky, but definitely possible. What do you think?

That may work but when I spend 60-70 usd on a kit it should be right the first time.

Thanks Laurent, I finally see why the nose looks different, I kept seeing a slight difference but I didnt know why, the line drawings all look the same from the side.

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Ahoj to everyone,

Yesterday I was surprised to see on the Eduard's blog that my nose (Gabor's nose) is the main question of the day. Sorry I could not answer immediately but this morning I had to go and make a few snaps to illustrate my point.

So what it is about Gabor's nose??? Here it is. I hope this answers all questions.

Gaborsnose.jpg

If there are any more questions about my nose I am willing to speak about it. :D :D :D

Best regards

Gabor

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While I was taking some provocative photos of my nose I took the liberty to take some other revealing pictures of few things around. I hope they can answer a few questions. It is not my task to convince anyone about anything but this time I offer you the chance to come with me and make your own measurements. I am just your hands in this case, you can do all the rest for yourself. It is possible to make assumptions, have theories, views and opinions (pleas dont have that D Hary quote again)by having a look at photos but there is a more analitical aproach to this question. I prefer the later. Here you have the chance to make your own measurements. Hope this can help a few people in building an accurate MiG-21 bis from what ever kit they like.

Now this is the easy part. It has been know for ages that the nose ring, or intake ring of the MiG-21 MF (Type 96A) and the MiG-21 bis (Type75AP) is different. This is the part that holds together and connects the main assembly parts of the fuselage nose section. Hope that you can read the meter, I am just holding it for you.

Here is the nose ring of one of the MiG-21 MF's as used by the Hungarian AF.

MFringsize.jpg

Now to the MiG-21 bis (Type 75AP), the ring here is shorter and bigger in diameter.

MiG-21bisintakering.jpg

This was the easy part of the job. The nose section is a bit tricky but it is possible to make it visible. Of course one can go out with a power tool and cut sections to make perfect measurements. I would not like to do that at the moment, but one day . . .

A matt surface hides its true lines but still one can add a grid to it which will show the details. You can do that with a laser, or the traditional measuring device as used in all air forces to control and measure the distortions of an aircraft structure. Both of them are good but you will not see it directly here. Later on one can say whatever he wants, you will not be able to look into the instrument, just have to take his word form it.

I have chosen to add a grid to the nose in a non destructive form with some black insulating tape. The centre line on top was taken as a starting point and going down to the center measuring point of the side of the intake every 10 cm a tape was attached going backward 50-60 cm. While they started parallel at the other end I had to compensate for the increase in diameter so the lines went symetrically backwards in a slight V shape, distributed equally between the top and the bottom marks. Also, small marks were added once again at 10 cm intervals (going backwards) to show the distance from the zero point, in this case the intake lip of the MiG-21 bis. The same procedure was carried out on an MF and a bis aircraft. Photos were taken from the same distance (as far away as I coud get to minimise distortion) in the same direction and from the same level. In case of the side view it was almost at a right angle to the longitudional axis of the aircraft, and in the middle of the area in question. The top line giving a horizon, just visible.

So here is the MF in a side view:

MFnoseside.jpg

Once again the second is the bis:

bisnoseside.jpg

In each case the marks were numbered for easy refeerence.

Now to an approximate 45 degree angle of the two aircraft. Yes, I know they are not exactly at the same angle but still it is the best that I could do in close to freezing temperature and little time to prepare the action.

The MF nose:

MFfront45.jpg

and the bis:

bisnose45.jpg

Also from the front. I was surprised to see the details when "developing" the films on my computer. On the last two lines one can see the shape of the nose curvature and also the corresponding marks on the fuselage side, so you know exactly where and what starts.

The MF:

MFnosefront.jpg

and the MiG-21 bis nose:

bisnosefront.jpg

This is not the best photo for comparison but at least it shows the two noses side by side. I dont like it since they are at a different distance which distorts the shape, but still. I see a difference and I know that the construction of the two fuselages is different. What do you think?

MFandbisnose.jpg

I hope you liked the show, this is the closest I could take you to the real aircraft.

Dont forget that the MF and the bis differ not only in the nose but in many other respects (apart from the new spine and the nose ring)!

Now to the question of my nose . . . :D :) :D

Best regards and Ahoj

Gabor

Edited by ya-gabor
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I understand that there are business decisions to be made, and limited resources to work with. But I think the problem a lot of people seem to have is that several times in the past, the principles at Eduard have told us (in so many words) that they were aware of the fairly significant differences between the MF and the bis, and that they planned to do the bis right instead of going with their original intention of using the same core set of molds for all later variants. Now the story has changed, and they're trying to justify their change of heart by saying that it just doesn't make that much difference.

Maybe it doesn't, but then again, maybe it does. When your aim is to put out the be-all and end-all - dare I say it, the mother of all MiG-21 kits - and when you tell the community of modelers who are keenly interested in this (arguably) most important combat jet of the past 50+ years that you're going to go out of your way to do it right.... and then at the last minute you decide to cheap out and not do it right... well, I think you need to expect some flak for that decision. And very rightfully so.

In this case, doing it right *would* cost more (it often doesn't). But as at least one person posted here, and as I suspect many of us who are huge fans of the MiG-21 family would agree, many people would be willing to pay a little more for a really, truly, dead-nuts accurate kit of the last and best variant of the MiG-21. Fully half of the ones I'm interested in are bis's. But as it now stands, we're still going to be paying a premium price for a model that's pretty good. But we (at least I) will always know that it could have been 100% but for a conscious decision on Eduard's part.

Eduard, you still have the ability to do this right. Nobody here can know all the things that go into your decision making process. Undoubtedly there are limited resources to put into this project. But if you did choose to do what you said you were going to do to start with, I think the goodwill and positive PR generated would *far* outweigh the cost of the tooling involved. I'm more than willing to wait another few months for a bis that's really a bis. It's not as if you don't have more than enough data to go on.

Just my $.02...

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I understand that there are business decisions to be made, and limited resources to work with. But I think the problem a lot of people seem to have is that several times in the past, the principles at Eduard have told us (in so many words) that they were aware of the fairly significant differences between the MF and the bis, and that they planned to do the bis right instead of going with their original intention of using the same core set of molds for all later variants. Now the story has changed, and they're trying to justify their change of heart by saying that it just doesn't make that much difference.

Maybe it doesn't, but then again, maybe it does. When your aim is to put out the be-all and end-all - dare I say it, the mother of all MiG-21 kits - and when you tell the community of modelers who are keenly interested in this (arguably) most important combat jet of the past 50+ years that you're going to go out of your way to do it right.... and then at the last minute you decide to cheap out and not do it right... well, I think you need to expect some flak for that decision. And very rightfully so.

In this case, doing it right *would* cost more (it often doesn't). But as at least one person posted here, and as I suspect many of us who are huge fans of the MiG-21 family would agree, many people would be willing to pay a little more for a really, truly, dead-nuts accurate kit of the last and best variant of the MiG-21. Fully half of the ones I'm interested in are bis's. But as it now stands, we're still going to be paying a premium price for a model that's pretty good. But we (at least I) will always know that it could have been 100% but for a conscious decision on Eduard's part.

Eduard, you still have the ability to do this right. Nobody here can know all the things that go into your decision making process. Undoubtedly there are limited resources to put into this project. But if you did choose to do what you said you were going to do to start with, I think the goodwill and positive PR generated would *far* outweigh the cost of the tooling involved. I'm more than willing to wait another few months for a bis that's really a bis. It's not as if you don't have more than enough data to go on.

Just my $.02...

Very well said Jennings, hope Eduard is listening.

Brett,

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Based on all this, I think I can live with Eduard's decision. Going with the MF nose geometry while incorrect, just isn't a deal breaker.

But regardless, I would like to thank Gabor for taking the time to do this work in the field and then post it on this thread. Some of the other pics / descriptions really didn't demonstrate the subtle differences in the nose section of the Bis vrs the others. Gabor's pictures have perfectly illustrated the difference between the two.

Thanks again,

John

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I agree - Gabor, you've done yeoman work on this. Thanks very much for all of it. Very enlightening.

I'm sure a lot of people reading this thread will be perfectly fine with Eduard's choice. Had they said all along that it was simply too expensive to tool a new fuselage for the bis, I might have been okay with it. But to say you're going to do something, then change your mind, then try to justify your decision with obfuscation and excuses just isn't good business as far as I'm concerned. I can't get away with that in my work.

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First off, Gabor thank you for taking the time and the excellent results which made it clear what is different.

The sad part is that we now know up front that an aftermarket nose must be made for those that want the accuracy avoided by Eduard.

Regards,

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thank you so much Gabor to share with us your investigations

the black tape demonstration really shows the nose curvature difference between those variants.

...i know that if i buy the BIS kit from Eduard, i won't be able to let the nose "as is"...

i hope there'll be someone to come up with an affordable solution before it end's up on my workbench!

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