Tango Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Nice comparison Gabor. But why zero on the measure scale is not placed to the same point? Wouldn't be better to place the zero point at the rear edge of the intake lip? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sweier Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Based on all this, I think I can live with Eduard's decision. Going with the MF nose geometry while incorrect, just isn't a deal breaker. John I have to agree entirely with John. Gabor's work is wonderfull, but not much use in my world. With all the lines and dots, on photos which even the smallest as seen on my screen are three times the size of the model, the difference is only slightly visible. I accidentally sand off more than the difference in cleaning up seams, so for me this is a storm in a teacup. I'll buy it or I won't, and don't blame Eduard for deciding that a fraction of a millimetre isn't worth an extra $100k or whatever the mould would cost. If I do buy it, and if I care to also make the *other* changes Gabor says are necessary, would this kit or another kit be a better starting point? Shane Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bungynik Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 (edited) I have wrote what I have on Eduards Blog page. As well as about their mentioning of Gabor, which was very cheeky from Eduard! But now I would like to ask you MF or bis? On first look... dont research or check the net. Laurent and Gabor be quiet! Pleasee!! Edited November 24, 2011 by bungynik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
su27rules Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Thank you Gabor for this great photos and all!! And what about main wheel hubs on the "bis" ?? Is it or not the same one as on the "MF"?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bungynik Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 (edited) Ahoj to everyone, Yesterday I was surprised to see on the Eduard's blog that my nose (Gabor's nose) is the main question of the day. Sorry I could not answer immediately but this morning I had to go and make a few snaps to illustrate my point. So what it is about Gabor's nose??? Here it is. I hope this answers all questions. If there are any more questions about my nose I am willing to speak about it. :D :D :D Best regards Gabor You should put some tapes on your nose as welll... just to show us that this is not same one as Eduard'd nose. Well it seam that Eduard adopted the well known Police rule, that you can distinguish the people by eyes or ears. Police do not care about nose for identification. Edited November 24, 2011 by bungynik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Nice comparison Gabor. But why zero on the measure scale is not placed to the same point? Wouldn't be better to place the zero point at the rear edge of the intake lip? Hi Tango, A good point. Zero was taken to be the front edge of the bis intake ring and to compare the two different versions I wanted to have a base line from which to start. The ring of the MF is longer then that of the bis so the zero point was further in from the front edge of the MF intake. Mind you this was not a precision measuring this time (I did that in the spring in preparation for the Eudard project) just to show approximately what the shape difference is and to have the grid as an aid in this process. This was just a quick idea with no preplaning so there are mistakes in the process. The tape itself is 15 mm wide, for a precise measurement I would not use it, this is just a SHAPE DEMONSTRATION. You can see that I did not cut precisely same lenghts of the tape, in near zero temperature I did not think it would be that important. It is a good point to have zero from the start of the fuselage panel after the nose ring but this zero point would not be a common to the two types since there is a completely different diameter. Also the curvature of the nose rings is very different which also adds to the shape, you would not like to leave this out from the equation. Hope to make some corrections this evening to the photos to show some more detail and correct some of my mistakes from yesterday. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 And what about main wheel hubs on the "bis" ?? Is it or not the same one as on the "MF"?? Nope but they are MF <-> bis interchangeable. I believe that Piotrek S gave this info here years ago. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 But now I would like to ask you MF or bis? On first look... dont research or check the net. Laurent and Gabor be quiet! Pleasee!! Wouldn't the test be more demonstrative if you only showed the nose ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bungynik Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Are you going to look only the nose section of the model? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tango Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Köszönöm Gábor! But now I would like to ask you MF or bis? On first look... Neither of them. Its MiG-21R ;-) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bungynik Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 (edited) Köszönöm Gábor! Neither of them. Its MiG-21R ;-) Noooooooo! You are wrong!!! It is not!! :) It is not the tricky question... it is one of two from my question! Edited November 24, 2011 by bungynik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Berkut Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 I am pretty sure it is one of the MF's (one of three?) that was modified to carry the Serbian reco pod. But the basic frame should be MF. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bungynik Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 I am pretty sure it is one of the MF's (one of three?) that was modified to carry the Serbian reco pod. But the basic frame should be MF. yes you are right. It is MF modified to carry the LORAP long range recce pod. But do you see how it is difficult to see the difference when the intake ring is painted? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tango Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 (edited) Noooooooo! You are wrong!!! It is not!! :) It is not the tricky question... it is one of two from my question! So then MF :-) Edited November 24, 2011 by Tango Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Floggerman Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 (edited) But do you see how it is difficult to see the difference when the intake ring is painted? But it's very easy, when the tail is visible... Now we are waiting for the tricky question. Edited November 24, 2011 by Floggerman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Köszönöm Gábor! Hi Tango, Szivesen. Hi su27rules, Our first set of MiG-21 bis with the Lazur system, the Type 75A version had the same hubs as the MF with the cutouts. Only the true Type 75AP's (our RSBN equiped aircraft) had the version as on the bis fighters. Hi bungynik, Some of our MF's also had the ring painted and I would say that it is visible. The MF is a straight line with light curvature and the bis is rounded. I cannot promise this for tomorrow but I think we will have some of the left over aircraft cut up for scrap. Will take a spray can with me and paint the nose section light gray together with the intake ring to photograph it. There are both surplus MF's and bis aircraft up for cutting. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bungynik Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Köszönöm Gábor! Hi bungynik, Some of our MF's also had the ring painted and I would say that it is visible. The MF is a straight line with light curvature and the bis is rounded. I cannot promise this for tomorrow but I think we will have some of the left over aircraft cut up for scrap. Will take a spray can with me and paint the nose section light gray together with the intake ring to photograph it. There are both surplus MF's and bis aircraft up for cutting. Best regards Gabor Gabor, I understand that you can see that, as well as I, but I posted photo here just to point out that most of the modelers (almost all) would not be able to distinguish these two if they don't have intake ring as a landmark. As I say, I am aware of that for years, but you must admit that for somebody who haven't had a chance to spend more time with 21s, it is very difficult to figure that out. i know that lot of people that work on Mig-21s were not aware of that. But, all in all, I would like to have the the real bis instead of this "falsified" and I was expected that Eduard will release the real bis... but do we have any other option? I suppose that AM companies have started to rub their hands! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Hi bungyik, "I suppose that AM companies have started to rub their hands!" And some producers in China! They already had some interest. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bungynik Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Hi bungyik, "I suppose that AM companies have started to rub their hands!" And some producers in China! They already had some interest. Best regards Gabor hehe!! It will be very interesting period! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Injection moulded and not after market. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
toadwbg Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 I accidentally sand off more than the difference in cleaning up seams, so for me this is a storm in a teacup. My thoughts exactly! LOL! I will say that the Eduard kit fits fantastic however, so there's not much seam cleanup. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 so for me this is a storm in a teacup. I was *so* hoping we wouldn't get into this discussion yet again, for the umpteenth time. If it doesn't matter to you that the nose isn't right, then great! If it's not a big deal to you, then by all means buy, build, and be happy. For some of us who are big fans of the airplane, this *is* a consideration. And for me personally (see my previous post), it's not so much the fact of the matter, but the way it's been (mis)handled. Don't say you're going to do something, then not do it, then try to justify your change of mind by telling your customers it just doesn't matter. I don't care if the prop blades of the Hasegawa Fw190D-9 are .003 mm too narrow at the root. Makes not the first iota of difference to me. But it does to some people, and I'm perfectly okay with that. If they want to jump on Hasegawa because of it, and they have data to back up their claims, then more power to 'em. Makes no difference to me either way, but I'm not going to applaud Hasegawa for putting out the kit with an error that they knew about but chose not to fix (especially if they'd said they were going to fix it). So, if you like the Eduard MiG-21 kit as I do, then please go forth and be happy with it. I'll still buy them, but this *does* make a difference to some of us. If I'm going to put the money, time, and effort required into really doing this kit up right, I think it's not unreasonable to expect the manufacturer to do at least that much as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pollie Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 yes you are right. It is MF modified to carry the LORAP long range recce pod. But do you see how it is difficult to see the difference when the intake ring is painted? To make it more difficult: in which factory was it built? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bungynik Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 (edited) Injection moulded and not after market. Yep! I understood you well! My thoughts as well! I have some information regarding that as well! To make it more difficult: in which factory was it built? It was modifies in Yugoslavia by VOC (Aviation Test Center). Edited November 24, 2011 by bungynik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Berkut Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 ...and how about sharing this information? :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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